Why do Jehovah's Witnesses falsify the Bible?

Samael_Khan · Jul 15, 2019

Trailblazer said:
You are a fascinating and very knowledgeable person. It is hard to believe that someone your age knows as much as you do about religion, but of course you already told me you have a passion for religion. I never had that kind of passion for religion but I am starting to change now, since I came to RF about a year and a half ago.

The more I discover about religion, the more I realise I do not know about religion. Plus I do not have prejudice towards other religions that other people might have as I am fascinated by the creativity of religion, so I can look at a belief I do not believe in very objectively, while at the same time not believing it. Also, I am a gamer and a reader of fantasy and Sci Fi novels, so I learn a lot about religions from that. For me it is easy to understand concepts of religion and other forms of belief for some reason, which is why I find it strange that many others can't observe opposing religions from a the viewpoint of a believer and try to understand a religion from a believers viewpoint. So for instance, I do not agree with the Bahai'i religion, but I can appreciate your belief in it, am gradually understanding why you believe it, I am genuinely fascinated by the concepts of it and am learning from you about it. I don't think it is a matter of age, it is being willing to not fear knowledge and opposing views and to be honest with yourself and admit when you are wrong, which will allow a change in ones preconceived viewpoint, undermining prejudice. Also, I would be doing a discredit to the JW's by not acknowledging that their Bible study programmes and books help me skyrocket my understanding of the Bible. The average Witness knows the Bible better than most graduates from seminary school. Also, for some reason, I can connect dots ion the bible easily, so when someone mentions a scripture I can pinpoint it immediately and many scriptures connected to it. Its weird. But then again I do the same with Pokemon and Final Fantasy.

Religion is an awesome thing. I believe that whether religion is true or not, humans up until recently have had a need for it. It provides hope where truth may not. And without hope, one cannot survive. And I believe that it is a form of self expression rather than science, thus serving a purpose which science and logic cannot, as human beings by nature are emotional beings and thus irrational to an extent. Which isn't actually a bad thing. Otherwise someone then ends up with a society of human terminators.

Trailblazer said:
I will be very interested in anything you have discovered in the Bible that indicates or refers to Manifestations of God.

I think what you are referring to as manifestations, I am referring to as Avatars. So my concept would be that God indwells in individuals but not fully. I can actually provide you with a 6 hour video of it. I will think about manifestations and reply further in another post.

Trailblazer said:
I think I recall the verses that they might use to back up this belief, I think they were in the Epistles of Paul.I am not sure what you mean by 'through him.'

Depends on the viepoint of God. According to Trinitarians, there are three person of God, and it refers to which one created the world. According to JW's it refers to God using Jesus as a tool, in a similar way that Jesus healed people by God working through him. Unitarians I think just view Jesus as a man and they would have some other interpretation of it.

Trailblazer said:
As I recall, Baha'u'llah wrote something about the world being recreated through the Manifestations of God every time they appear, but I do not have time to find that passage right now.

That is interesting. Sounds like the idea that the Earth has been created and recreated in different epochs. The flood of Noah was God ending one Epoch with water and bringing in another one. And then the Earth will again be ended, but the next time by fire. This is what I read once about some people interpreting the Bible in such a way,

Trailblazer said:
A Manifestation of God is a separate entity from God. I do not believe that Jesus preexisted in human form but rather Jesus existed as a soul in the spiritual world before He was born into this world. I do not believe that Jesus created anything, but I would be willing to look at any Bible verses that say this.

No Christian group that I know of believe that Jesus preexisted in human form. He usually exists as a spirit. Your view goes back to the view that I understand Sunni's to believe that souls exist with God before becoming human. They are sent to earth as a test.

Also, the Bible's view of soul is a tricky thing. The closest idea of a soul in the old Testament is the Breath of Life, which God breathes into made human bodies so that they can come to life. I think that breath, spirit and soul use the same Hebrew word actually. He takes the breath back when someone dies. Where exactly that breath originates I do not know besides that it comes from YHWH.

Samael_Khan · Jul 15, 2019

Trailblazer said:
Well, I decided to look and see if I could find what Baha’u’llah said about the Manifestations of God recreating the world, and I found it instantly by searching on the word ‘recreated' so the passage is below. It goes on to describe how the Essence of God is a fathomless mystery and how even the Manifestations of God cannot ever apprehend the Essence of God. I love this passage because it really drives the point home that we cannot ever know the Essence of God.

“In every age and cycle He hath, through the splendorous light shed by the Manifestations of His wondrous Essence, recreated all things, so that whatsoever reflecteth in the heavens and on the earth the signs of His glory may not be deprived of the outpourings of His mercy, nor despair of the showers of His favors. How all-encompassing are the wonders of His boundless grace! Behold how they have pervaded the whole of creation. Such is their virtue that not a single atom in the entire universe can be found which doth not declare the evidences of His might, which doth not glorify His holy Name, or is not expressive of the effulgent light of His unity. So perfect and comprehensive is His creation that no mind nor heart, however keen or pure, can ever grasp the nature of the most insignificant of His creatures; much less fathom the mystery of Him Who is the Day Star of Truth, Who is the invisible and unknowable Essence. The conceptions of the devoutest of mystics, the attainments of the most accomplished amongst men, the highest praise which human tongue or pen can render are all the product of man’s finite mind and are conditioned by its limitations. Ten thousand Prophets, each a Moses, are thunderstruck upon the Sinai of their search at His forbidding voice, “Thou shalt never behold Me!”; whilst a myriad Messengers, each as great as Jesus, stand dismayed upon their heavenly thrones by the interdiction, “Mine Essence thou shalt never apprehend!” From time immemorial He hath been veiled in the ineffable sanctity of His exalted Self, and will everlastingly continue to be wrapt in the impenetrable mystery of His unknowable Essence. Every attempt to attain to an understanding of His inaccessible Reality hath ended in complete bewilderment, and every effort to approach His exalted Self and envisage His Essence hath resulted in hopelessness and failure.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 62-63

I would agree. It is so unfathomable that I don't know any religion that claims to be able to fathom the essence of God. I think that mystery is what makes him God.

Samael_Khan · Jul 15, 2019

Katzpur said:
Hi, Israel. First off, thanks for the links. I found the BITE Model information to be fascinating and to provide some excellent food for thought. I only wish I had the time right now to discuss the second link in depth. Unfortunately (Well, fortunately in most ways), my husband and I are leaving for an 18-day overseas trip in 9 days and still have a lot to do to get ready for it. I feel that it would take me two or three hours to fully explain why I disagree with John Dehlin on the points he and I don't see eye to eye on. (I actually do agree with him on some points.) I really hesitate to get into a detailed response to your questions on this particular thread, since it has virtually nothing to do with the OP. But, if you would be willing to start a new thread on this subject specifically, I would be more than happy to comment in as much depth as I can, a little at a time, over the coming week.

I would be very willing to open a thread about it. I think threads that discuss possible misconceptions about a religion or belief concept, and discussed in detail by a person very knowledgeable of that religion or belief, really are informative goldmines. Other threads tend to not provide a platform for such discussion as the right question isn't asked from the outset. My thread on whether there is an official Trinity or not helped me understand the history and doctrine of the Trinity over one weekend because someone as knowledgeable as Shiranui117 gave a thorough "lecture" on it. My mind was blown. So I would gladly start a thread with you about it.

Anyway, I hope you enjoy the trip. Safe travelling.

Trailblazer · Jul 15, 2019

Israel Khan said:
Ahh... so then when we chat we are actually talking from different perspectives. Since you are speaking from the point of belief, recognising that it isn't objective, then I will refrain from speaking from an objective viewpoint. Having been a believer I can understand where you are coming from.

So are you saying you are now an agnostic or an atheist?

Israel Khan said:
What I do try to point out, is that to understand someone elses belief, we cannot impose our own viewpoint resulting from our belief on it. We actually need to put our beliefs to the side. We have to see things from their perspective and that religions theoretical framework of the world.

Yes, I understand that and I try to do it by focusing only upon what they believe.

Israel Khan said:
As a rule, if I am not able to do this, then I cast my own viewpoint in doubt.

I am not sure what you mean and why that would be the case.

Trailblazer · Jul 15, 2019

Israel Khan said:
The more I discover about religion, the more I realise I do not know about religion. Plus I do not have prejudice towards other religions that other people might have as I am fascinated by the creativity of religion, so I can look at a belief I do not believe in very objectively, while at the same time not believing it.

It is really difficult for “a believer” in “a religion” to not have some prejudice towards other religions that are very different from theirs, or might I say it is difficult for them to not be biased in favor of their religion. After all, if they did not firmly believe in it why would they ascribe to it? Some people are believers “in name only” since they were brought up in a given religion, but they do not really believe it firmly; they right for example just identify as a Christian and not have much to do with Christianity. It might be easier for them to accommodate other viewpoints.

But even though I am a Baha’i, I am always searching for more truth, because truth is everywhere to be found. Only if the core beliefs contradict the basic beliefs of my religion would I cast them aside. I am much more amenable to Buddhism than to Hinduism, becauae the idea of many Gods or God being part of us is just weird to me.

By conversing with people of all different kinds of religions on this forum has only made my faith in my religion stronger, because I am sure that unconsciously, if not consciously, I am drawing comparisons, what makes sense and what does not make sense, as I am very detail-oriented and analytical by nature.

Israel Khan said:
Also, I am a gamer and a reader of fantasy and Sci Fi novels, so I learn a lot about religions from that. For me it is easy to understand concepts of religion and other forms of belief for some reason, which is why I find it strange that many others can't observe opposing religions from a the viewpoint of a believer and try to understand a religion from a believers viewpoint.

I try to do that but I think I understand why those of other religions believe as they do, even though I could not believe what they do, because it either does not make sense and/or I consider it superstitious belief, a fantasy. So for example, people rising from graves when Jesus returns and living in a paradise on earth for eternity is to me a fantasy belief, science fiction of you will. If a belief is not realistic and congruent with science, as well as having practical aspects that are for making life on earth better for all, I am not going to ascribe to. It might appeal to me on an emotional level, for example “on fire” with love for Jesus and God, but I could not be that way because the reasons they are all excited make no logical sense to me --the resurrection, the Holy Spirit living inside, having a personal relationship with God. I just do not think those are possible and I cannot make myself believe them. Maybe that is because I have a different belief, I don’t know, or maybe I would not believe these things anyway.

I listen to a lot of Christian music and I get a lot of inspiration this music and I can understand why these Christians are so excited, given what they believe, but to me religion has to be rational, not emotional. I understand it makes sense to those believers and I think it is because of how they have come to interpret the Bible, so unless they are able to interpret it differently they will never change their beliefs… But of course they probably think the same about me and we both cannot be right, since our beliefs are contradictory. So there is no point trying to convince other people they are wrong and that is certainly not my intention, as my religion does not teach that we should ever try to convince people, but rather only share and teach if people want to hear more.

Israel Khan said:
So for instance, I do not agree with the Bahai'i religion, but I can appreciate your belief in it, am gradually understanding why you believe it, I am genuinely fascinated by the concepts of it and am learning from you about it.

What is it about the Baha’i Faith that you do not agree with?

Israel Khan said:
I don't think it is a matter of age, it is being willing to not fear knowledge and opposing views and to be honest with yourself and admit when you are wrong, which will allow a change in ones preconceived viewpoint, undermining prejudice.

I appreciate opposing views and I do not fear new knowledge, I constantly seek it. That does not mean I will change my beliefs, although I might change some of my views about them.

Israel Khan said:
Also, I would be doing a discredit to the JW's by not acknowledging that their Bible study programmes and books help me skyrocket my understanding of the Bible. The average Witness knows the Bible better than most graduates from seminary school. Also, for some reason, I can connect dots ion the bible easily, so when someone mentions a scripture I can pinpoint it immediately and many scriptures connected to it. Its weird. But then again I do the same with Pokemon and Final Fantasy.

The JWs do seem to know the Bible well, but I do not agree with their interpretations. I think that they tend to get stuck on the meanings of certain verse and cannot understand how they could mean anything else. But of course they probably also think that about me.

Israel Khan said:
Religion is an awesome thing. I believe that whether religion is true or not, humans up until recently have had a need for it. It provides hope where truth may not. And without hope, one cannot survive. And I believe that it is a form of self expression rather than science, thus serving a purpose which science and logic cannot, as human beings by nature are emotional beings and thus irrational to an extent. Which isn't actually a bad thing. Otherwise someone then ends up with a society of human terminators.

I do not think people should believe in religion just because they have a need for it; rather, they should believe it only if it is true, because otherwise they are living a fantasy. I think all the great religions have the same spiritual truths so they are all true; it is only the social teachings and laws that differ and the new message for the age that each religion brings.

Israel Khan said:
I think what you are referring to as manifestations, I am referring to as Avatars. So my concept would be that God indwells in individuals but not fully. I can actually provide you with a 6 hour video of it. I will think about manifestations and reply further in another post.

Not long ago, I got in some very long discussions with a Hindu on a Baha’i forum. He believed in Avatars. I could not understand that belief and he could not understand my belief. He fell in love with the Writings of Baha’u’llah, and he insisted that Baha’u’llah was just another Avatar and that other Avatars living today are on the same level as Baha’u’llah. But I really cannot see anyone on the same level as Baha’u’llah except perhaps Jesus. Baha’u’llah enjoined us to consider all the Manifestations of God equal in the sense that they all came from the same God with a message that was pertinent to their age in history, but some of them have a more intense light and a greater message to impart to humanity.

Israel Khan said:
Depends on the viepoint of God. According to Trinitarians, there are three person of God, and it refers to which one created the world. According to JW's it refers to God using Jesus as a tool, in a similar way that Jesus healed people by God working through him. Unitarians I think just view Jesus as a man and they would have some other interpretation of it.

I am closer to the JW belief than the other two beliefs. Jesus much more than a man but He was not a God, and God worked through Jesus.

Israel Khan said:
That is interesting. Sounds like the idea that the Earth has been created and recreated in different epochs. The flood of Noah was God ending one Epoch with water and bringing in another one. And then the Earth will again be ended, but the next time by fire. This is what I read once about some people interpreting the Bible in such a way,

In a sense that is right because the world is recreated in every new age, every time a new Manifestation of God is sent, as that passage I sent to you said.

Israel Khan said:
No Christian group that I know of believe that Jesus preexisted in human form. He usually exists as a spirit. Your view goes back to the view that I understand Sunni's to believe that souls exist with God before becoming human. They are sent to earth as a test.

Baha’is believe that the souls of Manifestations of God existed in the spiritual worldbefore they were born into this world but we do not believe that they were sent to be tested although they are a test for humans to recognize.

Israel Khan said:
Also, the Bible's view of soul is a tricky thing. The closest idea of a soul in the old Testament is the Breath of Life, which God breathes into made human bodies so that they can come to life. I think that breath, spirit and soul use the same Hebrew word actually. He takes the breath back when someone dies. Where exactly that breath originates I do not know besides that it comes from YHWH.

The Bible does not have the full story on the soul. The soul gives the body life but it does not die when the body dies. Given everything that is in the New Testament, the belief that the soul dies when the body dies cannot be accommodated. To fixate on what it says in the Old Testament about the soul being only the breath of life denies everything Jesus said about the soul. Baha’u’llah revealed a lot about the soul that was never revealed before, so we can now understand its function and its eternal destination, even though we cannot understand its nature.

Samael_Khan · Jul 15, 2019

Trailblazer said:
So are you saying you are now an agnostic or an atheist?

At the moment yes. But I also used to use that viewpoint when having faith so that I didn't include my bias.

Trailblazer said:
Yes, I understand that and I try to do it by focusing only upon what they believe.

Cool

Trailblazer said:
I am not sure what you mean and why that would be the case.

I mean my viewpoint of their faith and religion. Because I would be preventing myself from honestly gettig to know their belief.

Samael_Khan · Jul 16, 2019

Trailblazer said:
It is really difficult for “a believer” in “a religion” to not have some prejudice towards other religions that are very different from theirs, or might I say it is difficult for them to not be biased in favor of their religion. After all, if they did not firmly believe in it why would they ascribe to it? Some people are believers “in name only” since they were brought up in a given religion, but they do not really believe it firmly; they right for example just identify as a Christian and not have much to do with Christianity. It might be easier for them to accommodate other viewpoints.

Oh yeah, I know that. But there are degrees of bias. I would say, for instance, that when I was a JW I believed in certain things because of subjective proof such as the importance of 1914, the 144 000 and the anointed, Armageddon etc. I always understood though the difference between belief and objective truth. Objective truth results from positive evidence. A belief can possibly be true if it isn't factually refuted by an objective truth. For all I objectively know, I could be living in the Matrix. But my gut and belief tell me that I know I am experiencing the real world, therefore I act as if the world I am experiencing is real. Through that example, I can understand the concepts of various possibilities without believing that it is true. In fact, fiction is a good example of the case. I can understand the concepts of Star Wars and the force even while not believing in it. My knowledge of Star Wars not being true never prevented me from understanding it, or from putting myself in Luke Skywalkers shoes. That being said, nobody is fully objective though.

Trailblazer said:
But even though I am a Baha’i, I am always searching for more truth, because truth is everywhere to be found. Only if the core beliefs contradict the basic beliefs of my religion would I cast them aside. I am much more amenable to Buddhism than to Hinduism, becauae the idea of many Gods or God being part of us is just weird to me.

I get that.

Trailblazer said:
By conversing with people of all different kinds of religions on this forum has only made my faith in my religion stronger, because I am sure that unconsciously, if not consciously, I am drawing comparisons, what makes sense and what does not make sense, as I am very detail-oriented and analytical by nature.

I understand the thought process. How has discussion on the forum made your faith in your religion stronger?

Trailblazer said:
I try to do that but I think I understand why those of other religions believe as they do, even though I could not believe what they do, because it either does not make sense and/or I consider it superstitious belief, a fantasy. So for example, people rising from graves when Jesus returns and living in a paradise on earth for eternity is to me a fantasy belief, science fiction of you will. If a belief is not realistic and congruent with science, as well as having practical aspects that are for making life on earth better for all, I am not going to ascribe to. It might appeal to me on an emotional level, for example “on fire” with love for Jesus and God, but I could not be that way because the reasons they are all excited make no logical sense to me --the resurrection, the Holy Spirit living inside, having a personal relationship with God. I just do not think those are possible and I cannot make myself believe them. Maybe that is because I have a different belief, I don’t know, or maybe I would not believe these things anyway.

I cannot comprehend your thought process on this. If you believe in a creator, how is it that you do not believe that he can perform miracles? If he created all that is living, how is it that he cannot resurrect them from the dead, as it logically follows? If he created the earth for a purpose, why would he not then make it and the people on it live for eternity. To me, if a God exists, anything is possible for him to do. Miracles by nature cannot be congruent with science, for if they were they would not be miracles. They by nature exist apart from science. In fact God creating all that exists is not congruent with science and falls into the category of miracle. To me, if I follow your logic, then it is superstitious and unrealistic for a God to have create all that exists. Miracles, the nature of God, the creation of life, all exist outside of logic.

Trailblazer said:
I listen to a lot of Christian music and I get a lot of inspiration this music and I can understand why these Christians are so excited, given what they believe, but to me religion has to be rational, not emotional. I understand it makes sense to those believers and I think it is because of how they have come to interpret the Bible, so unless they are able to interpret it differently they will never change their beliefs… But of course they probably think the same about me and we both cannot be right, since our beliefs are contradictory. So there is no point trying to convince other people they are wrong and that is certainly not my intention, as my religion does not teach that we should ever try to convince people, but rather only share and teach if people want to hear more.

I had the same view about religion as a JW. But according to the Bible. One has to love God and have a personal relationship with him, which is a problem for me because I am not influenced easy by emotion, and I especially couldn't connect to someone invisible who doesn't talk directly back at me. In fact Christianity, while not throwing out rationality, seeks to embrace every part of a human, including emotions. If the emotion isn't there, then a person cannot have a proper relationship with God.

Trailblazer said:
What is it about the Baha’i Faith that you do not agree with?

Well, I definitely don't agree with the Bahai'i intepretation of the Bible (from what i have seen on this forum), as to me it is only valid if one is a believer. The interpretations are not what I would get when reading the Bible, knowing the importance of sacrifice in the Book and the story as a whole. Also, if I understand you and others of the faith correctly, prophets from different religions are manifestations of God. But since the Abrahamic religions are exclusive, to me this idea falls flat. Jesus with his apostles and Muhammed couldn't both be right.

Trailblazer said:
I appreciate opposing views and I do not fear new knowledge, I constantly seek it. That does not mean I will change my beliefs, although I might change some of my views about them.

That is great

Trailblazer said:
The JWs do seem to know the Bible well, but I do not agree with their interpretations. I think that they tend to get stuck on the meanings of certain verse and cannot understand how they could mean anything else. But of course they probably also think that about me.

Yes, they proof text, which is a bad practice. Also, since you say that you don't know much about the Bible, they would have a valid reason to say the same about you. Which would be the same with me if I have to quote Bahai'i texts to make certain claims without actually reading and knowing Bahai'i sacred texts

The JW's know most of the bible well. But the parts they do not know are key parts which undermine their faith. And even though they know the strict reading of the Bible well, they do not interpret well. While they have a thorough bible programme, with a weekly Bible reading of certain chapters, the verses discussed about in meetings are those that the leaders want them to talk about. Their understanding is not based on understanding what the Bible says, but in fact, is based on how their leaders understand what the Bible says. I don't know if we have ever spoken about their new light doctrine, but it basically means that their the leaders change understandings and interpretations of verses at any given notice. The followers say that they understand the Bible, and will confidently defend their group's interpretations, but when the leaders change their understanding and say that view is now wrong (New Light), the followers will defend the leaders new view and confidently defend that viewpoint, saying that now that new view is the "Truth". So, what the JW's preached years ago, is not the same as what they teach now, and they always can appear to know their Bible with regards to those verses but they regurgitate what the leaders feed them. Can JW's then be said to understand the Bible? They are just repeating what they are told to believe and how to defend that belief.

In fact, the elders told me when I presented scriptures contradicting the JW interpretation of the anointed, that they can only present arguments that the organisation has told them to. They couldn't go against the organisations viewpoint.

Trailblazer said:
I do not think people should believe in religion just because they have a need for it; rather, they should believe it only if it is true, because otherwise they are living a fantasy. I think all the great religions have the same spiritual truths so they are all true; it is only the social teachings and laws that differ and the new message for the age that each religion brings.

What is truth? No religion is objectively true. Followers at best only believe that their religion is true. So for all we know all religions are falsehoods. Living in a fantasy isn't bad. Different opposing religions, which are mutually exclusive, have each given their followers a reason to live and feel good. The psychological and emotional benefits of religion are proven, such as a person with faith is more likely to recover from drug abuse because they have a foundational hope in a higher power to help them. So, even though I agree with you that people should only believe what is true, evidence shows that religion has its benefits, therefore can be used for a beneficial purpose (not to ignore the harmful aspect), and that most people don't join religion to find truth. They are there for emotional reasons and for hope. You, a person who strives to be rational in approach to religion, are a rarity.

Trailblazer said:
Not long ago, I got in some very long discussions with a Hindu on a Baha’i forum. He believed in Avatars. I could not understand that belief and he could not understand my belief. He fell in love with the Writings of Baha’u’llah, and he insisted that Baha’u’llah was just another Avatar and that other Avatars living today are on the same level as Baha’u’llah. But I really cannot see anyone on the same level as Baha’u’llah except perhaps Jesus. Baha’u’llah enjoined us to consider all the Manifestations of God equal in the sense that they all came from the same God with a message that was pertinent to their age in history, but some of them have a more intense light and a greater message to impart to humanity.

I cannot comment on this. I am too ignorant. I would have to further understand your religion to understand your viewpoint. The same with Hinduism.

Samael_Khan · Jul 16, 2019

Trailblazer said:
I am closer to the JW belief than the other two beliefs. Jesus much more than a man but He was not a God, and God worked through Jesus.

I figured that.

Trailblazer said:
In a sense that is right because the world is recreated in every new age, every time a new Manifestation of God is sent, as that passage I sent to you said.

Do you have further information on this that is thorough? Sounds like an interesting study point.

Trailblazer said:
Baha’is believe that the souls of Manifestations of God existed in the spiritual worldbefore they were born into this world but we do not believe that they were sent to be tested although they are a test for humans to recognize.

Ok.

Trailblazer said:
The Bible does not have the full story on the soul. The soul gives the body life but it does not die when the body dies. Given everything that is in the New Testament, the belief that the soul dies when the body dies cannot be accommodated. To fixate on what it says in the Old Testament about the soul being only the breath of life denies everything Jesus said about the soul. Baha’u’llah revealed a lot about the soul that was never revealed before, so we can now understand its function and its eternal destination, even though we cannot understand its nature.

I was speaking from a JW perspective because they focus mainly on Ecclesiastes to support their view. It says many times that the dead have no consciousness, cannot think etc. So they use these verses as the foundational text to clarify all other scriptures that relate to the afterlife and a soul. They believe that the idea of a an immortal soul separate from the human body is a pagan idea and should be avoided.

I agree with their view from reality's standpoint as I cannot see the importance of a soul. I don't see them as something that could contain our personality or thoughts because I see all these things as stored in the brain. Which is why, if the brain is damaged, it affects those aspects of ourselves. If it is just a life force, I can understand its importance, but I do not see it as relevant outside the human body. Maybe it could be a pilot operating the machine, which is why if the machine is faulty then the pilot can only do certain things? I doubt it.

Sandra Jayne · Jul 16, 2019

calm said:
First fake
In the old scriptures of the Bible it says in John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Is the New World Translation a valid version of the Bible?

but in the "Bible" of the Jehovah's Witnesses it says
... and the Word was a God.

The Jehovah's Witnesses want to hide the divinity of Jesus by adding a "one" to this passage. Because "a God" means "Mighty One". The original scriptures prove that there is no "a", a clear forgery.

Second fake
In the old scriptures of the Bible it says in Hebrews 1:8
But with respect to the Son: Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; and: A scepter of rectitude is the scepter of thy kingdom.
Heb. 1:8 and Psalm 45:6, "God is thy throne." | CARM.org

but in the "Bible" of the Jehovah's Witnesses it says
But with respect to the Son: God is your throne, ...

Again they try to hide the divinity of Jesus. The old scriptures prove that God the Father personally addresses Jesus with the title God. God, the Father, addressed nobody another with the title God, Jesus is the only one. This biblical passage also proves the Trinity.

Third fake
In the oldest original copies of the Bible it says in Genesis 1:2
Now the earth was astonishingly empty, and darkness was on the face of the deep, and the spirit of God was hovering over the face of the water.

but in the "Bible" of the Jehovah's Witnesses it says
... and God's power...

Here they try to present the Holy Spirit as just a "power", but the Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit is a person.

Fourth fake
They claim that Jesus is an angel, but Jesus is not once identified as that. The Bible even makes a clear distinction between Jesus and the angels.
Hebrews 1: 5-8
For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son, today I have begotten you”? Or again, “I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son”?
And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all Gods’s angels worship him.”
Of the angels he says, “He makes his angels winds, and his ministers a flame of fire.”
But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.

Fifth fake
They claim that the Holy Spirit is not a person but only a power. But the Bible clearly teaches that the Holy Spirit is a person.
The Holy Spirit ...
• teaches the disciples (Luke 12:12, John 14:26, 1 Corinthians 2:13)
• leads the sons(Romans 8:14, Galatians 5:18)
• witnesses the forgiveness of sins to Christians (Hebrews 10:15)
• convict the world of sin, justice and judgment (John 16:8-11)
• leads believers into the whole truth (John 16:13)

The Scriptures not only show that the Spirit of God is acting, but are also presented as someone with whom something happens.
The Holy Spirit can ...
• to be blasphemed (Mark 3:29-30)
• be lied to (Acts 5:3)
• be tried, that is, put to the test (Acts 5:9)
• to be fought (Acts 7:51)
• be saddened (Ephesians 4:30)

Sixth fake
They claim that Jesus is not God, but the Bible teaches the opposite.

Jesus is omnipotent (Revelation 1:8)

Jesus is the true God (John 20:28-29) (Romans 9:5) (1 John 5:20)(Isaiah 9:6)(Hebrews 1:8)

Jesus is the creator (Romans 11:36) (Colossians 1:16-17)

God became flesh and Jesus is this flesh (John 1:1+14) (1 Timothy 3:16)

Jesus is worshipped (Acts 7:59-60)

........

Seventh fake
They teach that the name "Jehovah" is God's(father) name, but that's not true. This name is wrong.
The name jehovah is a fictitious name of the catholic church, in the 14th or 15th century catholic theologians mixed the title AdOnAi with YHWH and from this came "Jehovah".
The name Jehovah is wrong not only because it was created by a "mix", but also because the letters J and V are not present in Ancient Hebrew. The J is usually a Y and the V/W is a U (in ancient hebrew there are no J or V/W sound). Also, "YHWH" is wrong, because the letter W did not exist until much later. The W was a "double U" before it was changed. YHUH is the right form and not "YHWH".
The name Jehovah is not only wrong but also blasphemy, because Je-hovah means earth-disaster. The Je comes from the Greek and means also in Greek earth, Hovah means in Hebrew disaster. Strong's Hebrew: 1943. הֹוָה (hovah) -- a ruin, disaster
Yud(Y)-Hei(AH)-UaU(U)-Hei(AH) are the 4 letters of the name.
If you connect all the letters now, then the name YAHUAH comes out. That's the true name of the father. In the ancient Hebrew, YHUH does not mean "I am who I am," , but BEHOLD A HAND, BEHOLD A NAIL.

Sandra Jayne · Jul 16, 2019

Spartan said:
If the JW's believe John 1 translates as "the Word was A god," then they're polytheists. They've even denied the Holy Spirit is God, when Acts chapter 5 testifies against them on that.

I don't believe Acts 5 proves your argument at all.

Sandra Jayne · Jul 16, 2019

sooda said:
My experience of JWs is in the American South. They are generally very poor, have too many children and very little education. I have also found them to be mean -spirited with a chip on their shoulder.

One could use the same argument of any denomination not least Catholics many who live in the poorest nations on Earth. The one's I have met have been kind, genuine and yes there's even doctors and scientists among them!!!

Sandra Jayne · Jul 16, 2019

sooda said:
Jehovah’s Witnesses are told that those who seek higher education become arrogant and haughty, and think they know more than God. In addition to that, earning an advanced degree requires a lot of time and effort, and Jehovah’s Witnesses are taught that their time is best spent studying the Bible, attending their religious meetings, and proselytizing.
Why are Jehovah's Witnesses poor compared to other ...
www.quora.com/Why-are-Jehovahs-Witnesses-poor-compared-to-other-religious-groups

I think if you look up the 10 poorest nations on Earth you'll find in the population has a very small percentage of Jehovah's Witnesses.

I don't think they are told to seek higher education means one is arrogant or haughty. From their point of view it makes sense not to waste time on such transitory pursuits, after all what is 80 yrs compared to forever. I think they also believe they have a duty to warn others of the coming apocalypse and the truth of the scriptures, hence the title of their publication, The Watchtower.

Sandra Jayne · Jul 16, 2019

Trailblazer said:
It is really difficult for “a believer” in “a religion” to not have some prejudice towards other religions that are very different from theirs, or might I say it is difficult for them to not be biased in favor of their religion. After all, if they did not firmly believe in it why would they ascribe to it? Some people are believers “in name only” since they were brought up in a given religion, but they do not really believe it firmly; they right for example just identify as a Christian and not have much to do with Christianity. It might be easier for them to accommodate other viewpoints.

But even though I am a Baha’i, I am always searching for more truth, because truth is everywhere to be found. Only if the core beliefs contradict the basic beliefs of my religion would I cast them aside. I am much more amenable to Buddhism than to Hinduism, becauae the idea of many Gods or God being part of us is just weird to me.

By conversing with people of all different kinds of religions on this forum has only made my faith in my religion stronger, because I am sure that unconsciously, if not consciously, I am drawing comparisons, what makes sense and what does not make sense, as I am very detail-oriented and analytical by nature.

I try to do that but I think I understand why those of other religions believe as they do, even though I could not believe what they do, because it either does not make sense and/or I consider it superstitious belief, a fantasy. So for example, people rising from graves when Jesus returns and living in a paradise on earth for eternity is to me a fantasy belief, science fiction of you will. If a belief is not realistic and congruent with science, as well as having practical aspects that are for making life on earth better for all, I am not going to ascribe to. It might appeal to me on an emotional level, for example “on fire” with love for Jesus and God, but I could not be that way because the reasons they are all excited make no logical sense to me --the resurrection, the Holy Spirit living inside, having a personal relationship with God. I just do not think those are possible and I cannot make myself believe them. Maybe that is because I have a different belief, I don’t know, or maybe I would not believe these things anyway.

I listen to a lot of Christian music and I get a lot of inspiration this music and I can understand why these Christians are so excited, given what they believe, but to me religion has to be rational, not emotional. I understand it makes sense to those believers and I think it is because of how they have come to interpret the Bible, so unless they are able to interpret it differently they will never change their beliefs… But of course they probably think the same about me and we both cannot be right, since our beliefs are contradictory. So there is no point trying to convince other people they are wrong and that is certainly not my intention, as my religion does not teach that we should ever try to convince people, but rather only share and teach if people want to hear more.

What is it about the Baha’i Faith that you do not agree with?

I appreciate opposing views and I do not fear new knowledge, I constantly seek it. That does not mean I will change my beliefs, although I might change some of my views about them.

The JWs do seem to know the Bible well, but I do not agree with their interpretations. I think that they tend to get stuck on the meanings of certain verse and cannot understand how they could mean anything else. But of course they probably also think that about me.

I do not think people should believe in religion just because they have a need for it; rather, they should believe it only if it is true, because otherwise they are living a fantasy. I think all the great religions have the same spiritual truths so they are all true; it is only the social teachings and laws that differ and the new message for the age that each religion brings.

Not long ago, I got in some very long discussions with a Hindu on a Baha’i forum. He believed in Avatars. I could not understand that belief and he could not understand my belief. He fell in love with the Writings of Baha’u’llah, and he insisted that Baha’u’llah was just another Avatar and that other Avatars living today are on the same level as Baha’u’llah. But I really cannot see anyone on the same level as Baha’u’llah except perhaps Jesus. Baha’u’llah enjoined us to consider all the Manifestations of God equal in the sense that they all came from the same God with a message that was pertinent to their age in history, but some of them have a more intense light and a greater message to impart to humanity.

I am closer to the JW belief than the other two beliefs. Jesus much more than a man but He was not a God, and God worked through Jesus.

In a sense that is right because the world is recreated in every new age, every time a new Manifestation of God is sent, as that passage I sent to you said.

Baha’is believe that the souls of Manifestations of God existed in the spiritual worldbefore they were born into this world but we do not believe that they were sent to be tested although they are a test for humans to recognize.

The Bible does not have the full story on the soul. The soul gives the body life but it does not die when the body dies. Given everything that is in the New Testament, the belief that the soul dies when the body dies cannot be accommodated. To fixate on what it says in the Old Testament about the soul being only the breath of life denies everything Jesus said about the soul. Baha’u’llah revealed a lot about the soul that was never revealed before, so we can now understand its function and its eternal destination, even though we cannot understand its nature.

If you believe we have a 'soul' which continues to exist after we die I would be interested to know what you make of these verses.

“The dead know nothing . . . There is no pursuit, no plan, no knowledge or intelligence, within the grave.” Moffat Ecclesiastes 9:5

When they breathe their last, they return to the earth, and all their plans die with them. NIV Psalm 146:4

No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man. NIV John 3:13

Samael_Khan · Jul 16, 2019

Sandra Jayne said:
If you believe we have a 'soul' which continues to exist after we die I would be interested to know what you make of these verses.

“The dead know nothing . . . There is no pursuit, no plan, no knowledge or intelligence, within the grave.” Moffat

That verse comes from Ecclesiastes. The book of Ecclesiastes in terms of context is that it is the Congregator (narrator, maybe King Solomon) speaking about his life experience on earth, his journey to attain wisdom and what he sees happening around him. His experience on the earth is that life is vanity and ultimately mans whole duty is to fear God and keep his commandments. He is speaking about the real world around him. (It is personally one of my favourite books ever. Very cathartic for me.) The context shows that the above verse you quoted is from a human perspective. Those who are dead and in the grave really have no affect on the real world, and to us their existence is gone. So this isn't actually speaking about what happens after we die from a theological standpoint. Therefore this cannot be used as a foundational text for the idea of whether a soul is immortal or not, because the book is discussing everything "under the sun".

That being said, i tend to subscribe to the very human viewpoint of the author.

Other texts to think about when discussing the "soul" is verses mentioning the "breath of life" which gives men life and when men die it is taken back by God, which certainly shows that the bible says that there is a life giving force within us, separate from the body. Also refer to the verse where Jesus says that God can kill the mind, body and "Soul". These verses do not address whether the sin is conscious or not though.

Sandra Jayne · Jul 16, 2019

Trailblazer said:
It is really difficult for “a believer” in “a religion” to not have some prejudice towards other religions that are very different from theirs, or might I say it is difficult for them to not be biased in favor of their religion. After all, if they did not firmly believe in it why would they ascribe to it? Some people are believers “in name only” since they were brought up in a given religion, but they do not really believe it firmly; they right for example just identify as a Christian and not have much to do with Christianity. It might be easier for them to accommodate other viewpoints.

But even though I am a Baha’i, I am always searching for more truth, because truth is everywhere to be found. Only if the core beliefs contradict the basic beliefs of my religion would I cast them aside. I am much more amenable to Buddhism than to Hinduism, becauae the idea of many Gods or God being part of us is just weird to me.

By conversing with people of all different kinds of religions on this forum has only made my faith in my religion stronger, because I am sure that unconsciously, if not consciously, I am drawing comparisons, what makes sense and what does not make sense, as I am very detail-oriented and analytical by nature.

I try to do that but I think I understand why those of other religions believe as they do, even though I could not believe what they do, because it either does not make sense and/or I consider it superstitious belief, a fantasy. So for example, people rising from graves when Jesus returns and living in a paradise on earth for eternity is to me a fantasy belief, science fiction of you will. If a belief is not realistic and congruent with science, as well as having practical aspects that are for making life on earth better for all, I am not going to ascribe to. It might appeal to me on an emotional level, for example “on fire” with love for Jesus and God, but I could not be that way because the reasons they are all excited make no logical sense to me --the resurrection, the Holy Spirit living inside, having a personal relationship with God. I just do not think those are possible and I cannot make myself believe them. Maybe that is because I have a different belief, I don’t know, or maybe I would not believe these things anyway.

I listen to a lot of Christian music and I get a lot of inspiration this music and I can understand why these Christians are so excited, given what they believe, but to me religion has to be rational, not emotional. I understand it makes sense to those believers and I think it is because of how they have come to interpret the Bible, so unless they are able to interpret it differently they will never change their beliefs… But of course they probably think the same about me and we both cannot be right, since our beliefs are contradictory. So there is no point trying to convince other people they are wrong and that is certainly not my intention, as my religion does not teach that we should ever try to convince people, but rather only share and teach if people want to hear more.

What is it about the Baha’i Faith that you do not agree with?

I appreciate opposing views and I do not fear new knowledge, I constantly seek it. That does not mean I will change my beliefs, although I might change some of my views about them.

The JWs do seem to know the Bible well, but I do not agree with their interpretations. I think that they tend to get stuck on the meanings of certain verse and cannot understand how they could mean anything else. But of course they probably also think that about me.

I do not think people should believe in religion just because they have a need for it; rather, they should believe it only if it is true, because otherwise they are living a fantasy. I think all the great religions have the same spiritual truths so they are all true; it is only the social teachings and laws that differ and the new message for the age that each religion brings.

Not long ago, I got in some very long discussions with a Hindu on a Baha’i forum. He believed in Avatars. I could not understand that belief and he could not understand my belief. He fell in love with the Writings of Baha’u’llah, and he insisted that Baha’u’llah was just another Avatar and that other Avatars living today are on the same level as Baha’u’llah. But I really cannot see anyone on the same level as Baha’u’llah except perhaps Jesus. Baha’u’llah enjoined us to consider all the Manifestations of God equal in the sense that they all came from the same God with a message that was pertinent to their age in history, but some of them have a more intense light and a greater message to impart to humanity.

I am closer to the JW belief than the other two beliefs. Jesus much more than a man but He was not a God, and God worked through Jesus.

In a sense that is right because the world is recreated in every new age, every time a new Manifestation of God is sent, as that passage I sent to you said.

Baha’is believe that the souls of Manifestations of God existed in the spiritual worldbefore they were born into this world but we do not believe that they were sent to be tested although they are a test for humans to recognize.

The Bible does not have the full story on the soul. The soul gives the body life but it does not die when the body dies. Given everything that is in the New Testament, the belief that the soul dies when the body dies cannot be accommodated. To fixate on what it says in the Old Testament about the soul being only the breath of life denies everything Jesus said about the soul. Baha’u’llah revealed a lot about the soul that was never revealed before, so we can now understand its function and its eternal destination, even though we cannot understand its nature.

I find your thread thought provoking but I would like to ask you to consider a possibility.
For the sake of argument let us accept there is one God, a creator of everything.
In the Old Testament God choose the Jewish people and gave them laws to keep them 'separate' from the pagan religions all around them because Jesus was to be born from this lineage.
If God came up with a plan to take us back to where we would have been if Adam and Eve hadn't sinned isn't it logical that God would also choose a people at the end of this world as we know it to teach people about the truth of the scriptures?

I don't accept that all religions lead to the same place because there can only ever be one truth and if there is a God I'm pretty sure He would make sure we all hear it even if on a forum.

I find this verse quite sobering-
Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Matthew 7:13-14
Doesn't appear many of us are going to make it.

This seems to signify one has to look for the small gate and narrow road but if one has presuppositions as to what is the truth is one ever going to even recognise it if they should come across it? Perhaps we don't wish to 'see' the truth because it is easier to remain where we are, perhaps making the change is just too hard for some, much easier to follow our own 'leanings' even if it means it results in non existence.

Sandra Jayne · Jul 16, 2019

JJ50 said:
You have to be really gullible to take that unpleasant cult seriously.

Interesting, sure much the same thing was said about Jesus and his followers.

Samael_Khan · Jul 16, 2019

Sandra Jayne said:
I think if you look up the 10 poorest nations on Earth you'll find in the population has a very small percentage of Jehovah's Witnesses.

I don't think they are told to seek higher education means one is arrogant or haughty. From their point of view it makes sense not to waste time on such transitory pursuits, after all what is 80 yrs compared to forever. I think they also believe they have a duty to warn others of the coming apocalypse and the truth of the scriptures, hence the title of their publication, The Watchtower.

Check out the below link for totals of JW's around the world by country:

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/2018-service-year-report/2018-country-territory/

The United States has the largest numbers of JW's in the world, which makes sense since the group was started there. And there are too many factors involved to figure out why the JW membership varies in different countries. Certainly some of their higher percentages are in religious countries which are not strict with a specific religion and are part of the first world.

Actually JW's are told that that there is a link between higher education and arrogance. They consider themselves as having the best education for the reasons that you mentioned. The problem is that many are pressured into not having a higher education if they grew up in a Witness household (not an issue here in South Africa much though. In fact a brother from Bethel came to South Africa at last years convention saying that JW's should not send their kids to higher education.). But the main reason they say children shouldn't have higher education is that it undermines their faith with contradictory ideas (such as evolution. Watch an Anthony Morris video on higher education (A governing Body Member). They do not like having members exposed to contrary ideas. Higher Education is one of the biggest reason why those raised as JW's don't bother becoming Witnesses.

Samael_Khan · Jul 16, 2019

Sandra Jayne said:
Interesting, sure much the same thing was said about Jesus and his followers.

Christianity was a Jewish cult. Not in a bad way. It was an offshoot with odd beliefs.

By the way Welcome to the forum!

I see that you study Philosophy and Psychology. Have you ever studied Cult Psychology out of interest?

Spartan · Jul 16, 2019

Sandra Jayne said:
I don't believe Acts 5 proves your argument at all.

Doesn't change the scriptures in Acts 5 that confirm the Holy Spirit is God. You need more?

The Holy Spirit is a Person - God!

While in Genesis 1:2 we see the "Spirit of God" moving upon the face of the waters during creation (remember God as "Elohim," a plural creator), there is a very important and often overlooked verse in which the prophet Isaiah reveals that the Holy Spirit is more than just some type of spiritual force. Isaiah 63:10 reads,

"But they rebelled, and vexed His Holy Spirit: therefore He was
turned to be their enemy, and He fought against them."

The word "vexed," as used above, is the Hebrew word "atsab," which means "to worry, pain, or anger; to grieve, hurt, or make sorry" (Zodhiates Old Testament Word Study - Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary section, page 91). The question, of course, is "How can some inanimate force be angered or grieved, as we see occurred in the above passage? Only if the Holy Spirit was alive and possessed personal attributes could He experience these types of emotions." The Holy Spirit must therefore be a person.

Another important verse that shows that the Holy Spirit is one of the "Creators" is found in Job 33:4, which reads,

"The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty
hath given me life."

Obviously, the Holy Spirit must possess intelligence in order to take part in the creative process. Other "personal" attributes of the Holy Spirit are as follows:

1. The Holy Spirit "testifies" (Nehemiah 9:30).
2. The Spirit "instructs" (Nehemiah 9:20).
3. The Spirit "strives with men" (Genesis 6:3).
4. The Spirit sends messengers (Isaiah 48:16).
5. The Spirit enabled Joseph to interpret Pharoah's dreams (Genesis 41:38).
6. The Spirit gives wisdom (Exodus 28:3; 31:1-6; 35:31).
7. The Holy Spirit is the "Spirit of Wisdom" (Isaiah 11:2).
8. He is the Spirit of Knowledge (Isaiah 11:2)

Many passages in the Bible prove that the Holy Spirit is a person.
The Bible shows in many places that the Holy Spirit is acting, and that can only be said by one person.
The Holy Spirit ...
• teaches the disciples (Luke 12:12, John 14:26, 1 Cor 2:13)
• recalls the words of the Lord (John 14:26)
• bears witness to God (John 15:26)
• convict the world of sin, justice and judgment (Jn. 16:8-11)
• leads believers into the whole truth (Jn 16:13)
• announce the coming to the disciples (Jn 16:13)
• talks about the things of the Al (Jn 16:13)
• glorify Jesus (Jn 16:14).
• speaks to believers (Acts 8:29; 10,19; 11,12; 13,2; 20,23; 21,11; 28,25)
• encourages saints (Acts 9:31)
• prevents disciples from doing anything (Acts 16.6)
• forbids disciples to do anything (Acts 16: 7)
• leads the sons(Romans 8:14, Gal 5:18)
• affirm with our spirit that we are children of God (Ro 8:16)
• helps believers in their weakness (Romans 8:26)
• uses God for believers according to (Romans 8:27)
• explore the depths of God (1 Cor 2:10)
• distributes gifts according to His will (1 Cor 12:11)
• writes on flesh-tablets of the heart (2 Cor 3: 3)
• foretells the future (1 Tim 4: 1)
• witnesses the forgiveness of sins to Christians (Heb. 10:15)
• resting on self-proclaiming Christians (1 Pet 4:14)
• speaks to meetings (Off 2,7.11.17.29; 3,6,13,22)
• explains the words of God (Rev 14,13)
• call to Jesus(Rev 22,17)

The Scriptures not only show that the Spirit of God is acting, but are also presented as someone with whom something happens.
The Holy Spirit can ...
• to be blasphemed (Mark 3:29, 30)
• be lied to (Acts 5: 3)
• be tried, that is, put to the test (Acts 5: 9)
• to be fought (Acts 7:51)
• be saddened (Eph 4,30)
• reviled (Heb 10:29)

Notice clearly that all of the things that the Holy Spirit does requires intelligence of the variety that only God alone can possess. This ties God and the Holy Spirit together in a most closely-knit and inseparable unity.

Sandra Jayne · Jul 16, 2019

Israel Khan said:
That verse comes from Ecclesiastes. The book of Ecclesiastes in terms of context is that it is the Congregator (narrator, maybe King Solomon) speaking about his life experience on earth, his journey to attain wisdom and what he sees happening around him. His experience on the earth is that life is vanity and ultimately mans whole duty is to fear God and keep his commandments. He is speaking about the real world around him. (It is personally one of my favourite books ever. Very cathartic for me.) The context shows that the above verse you quoted is from a human perspective. Those who are dead and in the grave really have no affect on the real world, and to us their existence is gone. So this isn't actually speaking about what happens after we die from a theological standpoint. Therefore this cannot be used as a foundational text for the idea of whether a soul is immortal or not, because the book is discussing everything "under the sun".

That being said, i tend to subscribe to the very human viewpoint of the author.

Other texts to think about when discussing the "soul" is verses mentioning the "breath of life" which gives men life and when men die it is taken back by God, which certainly shows that the bible says that there is a life giving force within us, separate from the body. Also refer to the verse where Jesus says that God can kill the mind, body and "Soul". These verses do not address whether the sin is conscious or not though.

I love Ecclesiastes as well, it is so 'human', nevertheless I am not convinced by your explanation, he actually says, "the dead know nothing" sometimes things are meant to be taken as they are without looking for other explanations.
It appears from the other verse that no-one had gone to heaven prior to Jesus despite what some denominations claim.

Why do Jehovah's Witnesses falsify the Bible?

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