Spirit or Superstition?

Bethsheba Ashe · Jul 15, 2019

q) 2 Kings 2:11:

ויהי המה הלכים הלוך ודבר והנה רכב אש וסוסי אש ויפרדו בין שניהם ויעל אליהו בסערה השמים׃

"And there as they still went on and talked and behold: a chariot of fire and horses of fire, and separated between the two of them, and went up Elijah in a whirlwind to the heavens."

אליהו = 52.
Elijah = 52.

רכב אש וסוסי אש = 372.
A chariot of fire and horses of fire = 372.

אליהו בסערה השמים = 487.
Elijah in a whirlwind to the heavens = 487.

(372 / 2) + (52 x 2) + 487 = 777.

From 2 Kings 2:9-11: 372 is divided by two because it says the chariot and horses were separated between the two of them. 52 is multiplied by 2 because Elisha requests that Elijah gives a double portion of his spirit and Elijah agrees this should happen when he is taken. The number 777 was sacred to God. Its actually the sum total of the days of the week/days of creation:

ראשון + שני + שלישי + רביעי + חמישי + שישי + שבת = 777.
First + Second + Third + Fourth + Fifth + Sixth + Shabbat = 777.

You see? Its all in the detail.

shmogie · Jul 15, 2019

Bethsheba Ashe said:
In my new book [The Genesis Wheel ~ out 1st August] I argue that many of the so-called miracles and supernatural happenings in the Bible are not true accounts, but are there because of underlying gematria calculations the scribes were setting down. I write:

"From the burning bush to the ascent of Elijah to heaven, all the really odd and supernatural narratives of the Bible that I have investigated have gematria behind them, and are explained by scribal motivation to compose a mathematical sum. While this may be upsetting to some people, I don’t think this is something that should cause anyone to lose their faith in the spirit of God ... There is a great difference between holding a belief in the Spirit, and in rank superstition. Why should a true personal relationship with the original divinity be predicated on cheap supernatural favor seeking rituals?"

I think after reading my book, many people will be persuaded that the miracles and strange tales of the Bible were not intended to be read as factual accounts. It is not my intention to impact upon anyone's belief in God however. My question is:

Could you retain your faith and belief in God without believing in the strange and miraculous accounts in the Bible? Is a belief in 'the spirit' of God behind everything enough for you?

I look forward to your considered replies.

Christ said the miracles He performed were sign of His authority from God.

So, right off the bat you deny Christ. He was just rank superstition.

I won´t be reading your book. I have no doubt it is pure nonsense.

Bethsheba Ashe · Jul 15, 2019

Hockeycowboy said:
Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

I will try to give you a more detailed answer later, but first a question....
If (as a Christian) one doesn't believe the account of Adam & Eve and their subsequent rebellion against Jehovah God as detailed in Genesis to be literal, exactly how does Jesus' sacrificing his life -- which according to text I must point out he was willing to do -- have any value? How is it a " ransom"?

(OK, two questions, sorry)

I'm sorry, but I don't believe the story of Jesus was one about a literal man. The early Christians ported biblical gematria across to the Greek script, and again... gematria. The value of the stories as moral teachings and guidance are not less for that fact, but Jesus was the personification of the Sunlight come to earth, and it was thought that the Sun died each night and was reborn each morning. If the Sun was unwilling to sacrifice himself by going down at night, what would happen to the world? It would burn. Therefore the Sun sacrifices himself to save us.

But hey, this is just my point of view. If you're happy believing in a living breathing Jesus then don't pay me and the numbers any attention.

As for the Adam and Eve story, the gematria analysis reveals a kinder and more loving God than dogma would originally have us believe, and he doesn't so much punish Adam and Eve as laments the fact that they will have to go to earth.

I'm not sure what you mean by "a ransom".

Bethsheba Ashe · Jul 15, 2019

shmogie said:
Christ said the miracles He performed were sign of His authority from God.

So, right off the bat you deny Christ. He was just rank superstition.

I won´t be reading your book. I have no doubt it is pure nonsense.

Yes, I shall be happier if you don't read my book too. It is not for everyone and not for you.

Hockeycowboy · Jul 15, 2019

Bethsheba Ashe said:
I'm sorry, but I don't believe the story of Jesus was one about a literal man. The early Christians ported biblical gematria across to the Greek script, and again... gematria. The value of the stories as moral teachings and guidance are not less for that fact, but Jesus was the personification of the Sunlight come to earth, and it was thought that the Sun died each night and was reborn each morning. If the Sun was unwilling to sacrifice himself by going down at night, what would happen to the world? It would burn. Therefore the Sun sacrifices himself to save us.

But hey, this is just my point of view. If you're happy believing in a living breathing Jesus then don't pay me and the numbers any attention.

As for the Adam and Eve story, the gematria analysis reveals a kinder and more loving God than dogma would originally have us believe, and he doesn't so much punish Adam and Eve as laments the fact that they will have to go to earth.

I'm not sure what you mean by "a ransom".

Jesus as a Ransom is mentioned in Mark 10:45, and as a redemption @ Ephesians 1:7 & 1 Peter 1:18-19

Redemption from death, which the Genesis account, taken literally, reveals was not God's original purpose for A&E. Only after their rebellion, were they going to experience death. Otherwise, they were going to live forever. And that was Jesus' statement in his prayer at John 17:3, and at John 3:16. And others.

Meditating on Genesis as a literal account, is eye-opening in many ways! I can briefly show you some of those, especially in Genesis 3.

If not....

I wish you the best in your endeavors, and in searching for truth.

Bethsheba Ashe · Jul 15, 2019

Hockeycowboy said:
Jesus as a Ransom is mentioned in Mark 10:45, and as a redemption @ Ephesians 1:7 & 1 Peter 1:18-19

Redemption from death, which the Genesis account, taken literally, reveals was not God's original purpose for A&E. Only after their rebellion, were they going to experience death. Otherwise, they were going to live forever. And that was Jesus' statement in his prayer at John 17:3, and at John 3:16. And others.

Meditating on Genesis as a literal account, is eye-opening in many ways! I can briefly show you some of those, especially in Genesis 3.

If not....

I wish you the best in your endeavors, and in searching for truth.

Thank you. Adam and Eve were in the heavens and therefore unborn, and not subject to death until they partook of the light which God had already decreed must come to earth, and so they had to come to earth too. God wasn't punishing but describing the consequences of their actions. It seems like punishment because God curses the Serpent but that is the spirit of the letter Nun which originally looked like a serpent on its belly. The word curse indicated subtraction in the sum of that line. Actually the numbers reveal a blessing (31 × 7) rather than a curse, probably because God intended man to look after the earth for him all along, which is why he set temptation and desire in their path.

shmogie · Jul 15, 2019

Bethsheba Ashe said:
Yes, I shall be happier if you don't read my book too. It is not for everyone and not for you.

Absolutely, numerology is not my thing.

Bethsheba Ashe · Jul 15, 2019

shmogie said:
Absolutely, numerology is not my thing.

Its not mine either.

Bethsheba Ashe · Jul 15, 2019

Hockeycowboy said:
Meditating on Genesis as a literal account, is eye-opening in many ways! I can briefly show you some of those, especially in Genesis 3.

I thinks it's a valuable exercise to try and put yourself into the shoes of an ancient scribe and understand how they saw the world. I would like to know what you have figured out from it. Thanks.

Hockeycowboy · Jul 15, 2019

Bethsheba Ashe said:
I thinks it's a valuable exercise to try and put yourself into the shoes of an ancient scribe and understand how they saw the world. I would like to know what you have figured out from it. Thanks.

It's very late here. I will continue our dialogue tomorrow, ok?

Thank you.

Bethsheba Ashe · Jul 15, 2019

Hockeycowboy said:
It's very late here. I will continue our dialogue tomorrow, ok?

Thank you.

Yes, I'm going to bed too, so that would be preferable. Good night.

loverofhumanity · Jul 16, 2019

Bethsheba Ashe said:
q) 2 Kings 2:11:

ויהי המה הלכים הלוך ודבר והנה רכב אש וסוסי אש ויפרדו בין שניהם ויעל אליהו בסערה השמים׃

"And there as they still went on and talked and behold: a chariot of fire and horses of fire, and separated between the two of them, and went up Elijah in a whirlwind to the heavens."

אליהו = 52.
Elijah = 52.

רכב אש וסוסי אש = 372.
A chariot of fire and horses of fire = 372.

אליהו בסערה השמים = 487.
Elijah in a whirlwind to the heavens = 487.

(372 / 2) + (52 x 2) + 487 = 777.

From 2 Kings 2:9-11: 372 is divided by two because it says the chariot and horses were separated between the two of them. 52 is multiplied by 2 because Elisha requests that Elijah gives a double portion of his spirit and Elijah agrees this should happen when he is taken. The number 777 was sacred to God. Its actually the sum total of the days of the week/days of creation:

ראשון + שני + שלישי + רביעי + חמישי + שישי + שבת = 777.
First + Second + Third + Fourth + Fifth + Sixth + Shabbat = 777.

You see? Its all in the detail.

I think it’s important that many of the stories and purported miracles in the Bible are viewed as symbolical and telling an important moral or spiritual story rather than being seen as all literal events.

We Baha’is are told that stories like creation, Adam and Eve, Noah and the Flood, the Red Sea crossing are all stories with inner spiritual significances and meaning. Things like water gushing from rocks are not literal happenings but are allegorical.

Although we do believe in historical Figures such as Jesus, Muhammad and so on I feel it’s been attachment to the literal interpretation of Holy Books which has caused so much strife and disunity so another person questioning literal interpretations is welcome.

JJ50 · Jul 16, 2019

Bethsheba Ashe said:
In my new book [The Genesis Wheel ~ out 1st August] I argue that many of the so-called miracles and supernatural happenings in the Bible are not true accounts, but are there because of underlying gematria calculations the scribes were setting down. I write:

"From the burning bush to the ascent of Elijah to heaven, all the really odd and supernatural narratives of the Bible that I have investigated have gematria behind them, and are explained by scribal motivation to compose a mathematical sum. While this may be upsetting to some people, I don’t think this is something that should cause anyone to lose their faith in the spirit of God ... There is a great difference between holding a belief in the Spirit, and in rank superstition. Why should a true personal relationship with the original divinity be predicated on cheap supernatural favor seeking rituals?"

I think after reading my book, many people will be persuaded that the miracles and strange tales of the Bible were not intended to be read as factual accounts. It is not my intention to impact upon anyone's belief in God however. My question is:

Could you retain your faith and belief in God without believing in the strange and miraculous accounts in the Bible? Is a belief in 'the spirit' of God behind everything enough for you?

I look forward to your considered replies.

Is this an advertising ploy or a genuine thread?

I think the Bible is a very human creation, full of superstitious claptrap.

Kenny · Jul 16, 2019

Bethsheba Ashe said:
David, if I write:

2 + 19 - 300 + 295 =

then by mathematical convention the answer is 16. We cannot see what we want with the text and still get the right answer. Biblical gematria has similar mathematical and logical conventions.

Nice Lizard/Leaf though.

Then again, if all of these require mathematical and logical conventions, it bears the weight that a logical mind was behind it. And if the logical mind is behind it, maybe miracles are logical as proof of the divine.

Or, to state it another way, if one has experienced miracles in ones own life, IMV it would be logical to believe that those written in the past have the possibility that they are true too.

loverofhumanity · Jul 16, 2019

JJ50 said:
Is this an advertising ploy or a genuine thread?

I think the Bible is a very human creation, full of superstitious claptrap.

My personal view is that Biblical stories are placed there for our moral and spiritual guidance and education and that factually Jesus existed but He was on a spiritual mission to transform minds and hearts not to win a magicians contest. Christians in reality debase Christ to that of a magician performing in a circus.

If Christ healed anyone they died again so the Bible is speaking about spiritual healing. If anyone was risen from the dead he only died again so the point was that it was a spiritual resurrection. The entire Bible is about our relationship with God and about ennobling our character.

People for the most part delight in superstitions. They regard a single drop of the sea of delusion as preferable to an ocean of certitude. - Baha’u’llah

JJ50 · Jul 16, 2019

loverofhumanity said:
My personal view is that Biblical stories are placed there for our moral and spiritual guidance and education and that factually Jesus existed but He was on a spiritual mission to transform minds and hearts not to win a magicians contest. Christians in reality debase Christ to that of a magician performing in a circus.

If Christ healed anyone they died again so the Bible is speaking about spiritual healing. If anyone was risen from the dead he only died again so the point was that it was a spiritual resurrection. The entire Bible is about our relationship with God and about ennobling our character.

People for the most part delight in superstitions. They regard a single drop of the sea of delusion as preferable to an ocean of certitude. - Baha’u’llah

Jesus was a human like the rest of us and far from perfect.

loverofhumanity · Jul 16, 2019

JJ50 said:
Jesus was a human like the rest of us and far from perfect.

I agree He took human form. But explain how He withstood persecution and being crucified and His Cause still captivating billions of lives thousands of years after His passing who model their daily lives on His teachings?

Can any ordinary human achieve this distinction? Can you do it? If you think He was just an ordinary human then I challenge you to prove it by emulating His achievements despite the fiercest opposition and crucifixion. I’m not a Christian but I’m absolutely convinced Christ was invested with a power from God that no ordinary human possesses.

shunyadragon · Jul 16, 2019

Prestor John said:
Yes, we do.

We have the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price.

The Book of Mormon has less provenance of authorship and source than the Bible.

Not to mention all the apocryphal and pseudepigraphal works out there.

Out there? None of this literature does anything to confirm the authorship and provenance of the Bible. The actual evidence demonstrates that the Bible is a collection of books that are edited, redacted, and compiled by mixed anonymous authorship.

JJ50 · Jul 16, 2019

loverofhumanity said:
I agree He took human form. But explain how He withstood persecution and being crucified and His Cause still captivating billions of lives thousands of years after His passing who model their daily lives on His teachings?

Can any ordinary human achieve this distinction? Can you do it? If you think He was just an ordinary human then I challenge you to prove it by emulating His achievements despite the fiercest opposition and crucifixion. I’m not a Christian but I’m absolutely convinced Christ was invested with a power from God that no ordinary human possesses.

He was a pain in the neck and the Jews wanted rid of him, he had no say in his crucifixion, imo. I hope Jesus had nothing in common with the evil Biblical god.

Many still model their daily lives on the teaching of the evil racist, Hitler, and his Nazi followers. I am of the opinion Hitler would have been very proud of a certain racist president

!

BilliardsBall · Jul 16, 2019

Bethsheba Ashe said:
In my new book [The Genesis Wheel ~ out 1st August] I argue that many of the so-called miracles and supernatural happenings in the Bible are not true accounts, but are there because of underlying gematria calculations the scribes were setting down. I write:

"From the burning bush to the ascent of Elijah to heaven, all the really odd and supernatural narratives of the Bible that I have investigated have gematria behind them, and are explained by scribal motivation to compose a mathematical sum. While this may be upsetting to some people, I don’t think this is something that should cause anyone to lose their faith in the spirit of God ... There is a great difference between holding a belief in the Spirit, and in rank superstition. Why should a true personal relationship with the original divinity be predicated on cheap supernatural favor seeking rituals?"

I think after reading my book, many people will be persuaded that the miracles and strange tales of the Bible were not intended to be read as factual accounts. It is not my intention to impact upon anyone's belief in God however. My question is:

Could you retain your faith and belief in God without believing in the strange and miraculous accounts in the Bible? Is a belief in 'the spirit' of God behind everything enough for you?

I look forward to your considered replies.

I don't understand why gematria doesn't strengthen the Bible claims, where here, you say it weakens them--rabbis have known for millennia the Bible is beyond any other books in construction, order and arrangement, showing divine intelligence! You are saying "Because the Bible shows IMMENSE design from a higher intelligence, it must be lying when it names real people, real places and false supernatural events." That makes NO sense to my way of thinking.

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