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Tradition before Scripture

pearl

Well-Known Member
"Let Your (Informed) Conscience Be Your Guide",

Leaving the question informed by who, the Church?
But you are absolutely right in that ones conscience is the determining factor. Concerning the Trinity we are not compelled to agree with the 'formulations', but to deny the Trinity itself, which is the central doctrine of the Church, would, I think, place one outside of the Church.
The same with the Creed. We may not agree with the ancient expression, the formulation of, but to deny the Creed itself and remain within the Church would be problematic. We recite it so often without much thought. If one begins the Creed with 'I' believe in place of the 'we' it becomes personal. As in so many others there is development in the creedal formula for what it means for today. Ratzinger's 'Introduction to Christianity' is just that, a commentary on the Creed.

Even the selection of the canon, which took over 1/2 a century without even making a decision on the "Apocrypha", was highly contentious.

And there will continue to be disagreements as to the selection and as to the various interpretations which the Church does not authoritatively define which are only about seven passages out of the entire NT. None of these are the 'core' of belief.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
That is exactly my point, the Decapolis cities were Greek speaking Jews, that is why the Hebrew scriptures were translated in Greek.

Stating that people could not read in Jesus day, is simply put, incorrect.
Why else would Jesus repeatedly say " did you not read" when he quoted from the scriptures.
Additionally, If people could not read why did they own expensive books which they felt compeled to burn (Acts 19:19)
The fact that these books were expensive is not evidence that they could not read.

All the best.

Most Greeks in the Decapolis were Gentiles. Galilee was otherwise Jewish although considered apostate by Jerusalem.

  1. roman empire - When did Galilee become part of Iudaea ...
    When did Galilee become part of Iudaea? When did it become separate?when-did-galilee-become-part-of...
    1 Answer. According to Wikipedia, after the death of King Herod Agrippa in 44CE Galilee and Peraea were incorporated into the province of Iudaea. Over the next century there were no less than 3 major Jewish revolts. The last one was such a serious blow to Roman prestige that when Emperor Hadrian finally suppressed it,...
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
And the reason that you have never heard the truth before, is because you follow the teachings of the Roman Church of Emperor Constantine and not the teachings as revealed in the Holy Scriptures.

Your anti Catholic rhetoric from the your anti Catholic play book is beyond ad nauseam, to say nothing of your persistent and deliberate ignorance of what is and what is not Catholic.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Why bother to answer such an ignorant question? When all who have read and believe the Scriptures, or have read the previous post in relation to the edict by G. Vibius Maximus, the Roman governor of Egypt, know why.

Only those who lack the ability to comprehend that which they have read, would be so ignorant as to ask that question.

Nighty night once again grandma, it's after midnight here, and I am off to hit the weeping willow and plough the deep.

There was only 1 Nazareth.

twobeth.gif



  1. roman empire - When did Galilee become part of Iudaea ...
    When did Galilee become part of Iudaea? When did it become separate?when-did-galilee-become-part-of...
    1 Answer. According to Wikipedia, after the death of King Herod Agrippa in 44CE Galilee and Peraea were incorporated into the province of Iudaea. Over the next century there were no less than 3 major Jewish revolts. The last one was such a serious blow to Roman prestige that when Emperor Hadrian finally suppressed it,...
 

sooda

Veteran Member
@oldbadger
@The Anointed
@Subduction Zone

"Fiddling" with the gospels?

Matthew shaped the stories pertaining to Jesus to “show” that Jesus’ life was a fulfillment of the stories of Moses (see Exodus 1-20).

According to Matthew, the family of his Jesus flees to Egypt in order to escape the wrath of Herod “in order to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, ‘Out of Egypt I have called my Son'” (2:15).

The quotation comes from the book of Hosea 11:1 and refers to the Exodus of the children of Israel from their bondage in Egypt. Has NOTHING to do with Jesus.

Matthew’s target market was the Jewish readers. Herod is made into a Pharoah like ruler, Jesus’s baptism is like Moses crossing the Red Sea, the forty days of temptation are like the forty years the children of Israel wandered in the wilderness, and the sermon on the mount is similar to the law of Moses delivered on Mount Sinai.

Jesus is portrayed by Matthew as the “new” Moses, come to set his people free from their bondage and give them new law and teachings. To present this picture of Jesus, Matthew had to colour the traditions accordingly. Not everything in his gospel is historical.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
@oldbadger
@The Anointed
@Subduction Zone

"Fiddling" with the gospels?

Matthew shaped the stories pertaining to Jesus to “show” that Jesus’ life was a fulfillment of the stories of Moses (see Exodus 1-20).

According to Matthew, the family of his Jesus flees to Egypt in order to escape the wrath of Herod “in order to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, ‘Out of Egypt I have called my Son'” (2:15).

The quotation comes from the book of Hosea 11:1 and refers to the Exodus of the children of Israel from their bondage in Egypt. Has NOTHING to do with Jesus.

Matthew’s target market was the Jewish readers. Herod is made into a Pharoah like ruler, Jesus’s baptism is like Moses crossing the Red Sea, the forty days of temptation are like the forty years the children of Israel wandered in the wilderness, and the sermon on the mount is similar to the law of Moses delivered on Mount Sinai.

Jesus is portrayed by Matthew as the “new” Moses, come to set his people free from their bondage and give them new law and teachings. To present this picture of Jesus, Matthew had to colour the traditions accordingly. Not everything in his gospel is historical.
One of the problems in debating creationists is that they seem to think quote mining is a legitimate debating technique. That is the taking of quotes out of context and twisting them to suit one's own purposes. And this may be where it came from. If a person is willing to quote mine his own religious book, what sort of morals or ethics would stop him from dishonestly abusing the works of others.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
One of the problems in debating creationists is that they seem to think quote mining is a legitimate debating technique. That is the taking of quotes out of context and twisting them to suit one's own purposes. And this may be where it came from. If a person is willing to quote mine his own religious book, what sort of morals or ethics would stop him from dishonestly abusing the works of others.

You lost me.. Who is the creationist here?

According to the Synoptic Gospels (Mark 6:14-16), Herod Antipas, the son of Herod the Great, despite the measures his father is supposed to have taken against Jesus, is perplexed by Jesus and seems to have no previous knowledge of him. That is messy historically.

Jesus was probably a holy man, but the gospel writers embellished their stories to prove he was the Jewish Messiah to the extent that the truth is unrecognizable.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You lost me.. Who is the creationist here?

According to the Synoptic Gospels (Mark 6:14-16), Herod Antipas, the son of Herod the Great, despite the measures his father is supposed to have taken against Jesus, is perplexed by Jesus and seems to have no previous knowledge of him. That is messy historically.

Jesus was probably a holy man, but the gospel writers embellished their stories to prove he was the Jewish Messiah to the extent that the truth is unrecognizable.

Quite a few Christians are creationists. My point was that much of the Christian religion relies on quote mines. When one years the claim of "300 prophecies of Jesus" one finds that the vast majority are not prophecies at all. Instead they are musleading, at best, quote mines of the Old Testament. Coming from that sort of history it is no wonder that creationists do the same.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Quite a few Christians are creationists. My point was that much of the Christian religion relies on quote mines. When one years the claim of "300 prophecies of Jesus" one finds that the vast majority are not prophecies at all. Instead they are musleading, at best, quote mines of the Old Testament. Coming from that sort of history it is no wonder that creationists do the same.

The never bother with who the prophet was speaking to or when he lived. Its really lazy.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Leaving the question informed by who, the Church?
Yes.

Concerning the Trinity we are not compelled to agree with the 'formulations', but to deny the Trinity itself, which is the central doctrine of the Church, would, I think, place one outside of the Church.
I tend to think it's not black & white to the point whereas if one questions it's accuracy that it puts one outside the Church. The exception to the rule is that if one is teaching while representing the Church, such as a priest or a teacher in the RCIA program, they must teach the Trinity as accepted and taught by the Church.

The same with the Creed. We may not agree with the ancient expression, the formulation of, but to deny the Creed itself and remain within the Church would be problematic.
Again, there's a vast difference between "deny" and "question". Let me give a personal example.

When I talked with our priest about my desire to come back to the Church, I told him that I'm a 74 year ol-- er, I mean mature:rolleyes:-- scientist who will always question things because that's what we're trained to do, and I do that with just about everything and anything. However, I then told him what I can and am willing to do is to commit myself to the Church and to do the best that I can to help out. He told me to go to confession, which I did with him, and then I could begin to retake the sacraments, which I have since last September.

Then he said that he would like to see me back teaching the RCIA program like I did for 14 years in the 80's and early 90's, but I told him I'd rather take one step at a time. But then last month I decided to do as such, so that I'll be starting up with the program in the fall.

BTW, when I taught/teach in that program, I taught/teach what the Church teaches, not what I may question.

So, with that, I have to leave shortly, so have a Most Blessed Lord's Day.
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
And the reason that you have never heard the truth before, is because you follow the teachings of the Roman Church of Emperor Constantine and not the teachings as revealed in the Holy Scriptures.
Constantine was not only not a teacher within the Church, he wasn't even close to being a theologian, which is why he had convened bishops from many churches to meet in Nicaea to put forth their input into a creed that was needed because of both internal and external conflicts.

BTW, it was that same council that chose the Bible you are using, so maybe you should take your Bible and give it to someone who could use that "Constantine"-ordered canon that you have. After all why would you want to keep a "Roman Church of Emperor Constantine" Bible around?
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
@oldbadger
@The Anointed
@Subduction Zone

"Fiddling" with the gospels?

Matthew shaped the stories pertaining to Jesus to “show” that Jesus’ life was a fulfillment of the stories of Moses (see Exodus 1-20).

According to Matthew, the family of his Jesus flees to Egypt in order to escape the wrath of Herod “in order to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, ‘Out of Egypt I have called my Son'” (2:15).

The quotation comes from the book of Hosea 11:1 and refers to the Exodus of the children of Israel from their bondage in Egypt. Has NOTHING to do with Jesus.

Matthew’s target market was the Jewish readers. Herod is made into a Pharoah like ruler, Jesus’s baptism is like Moses crossing the Red Sea, the forty days of temptation are like the forty years the children of Israel wandered in the wilderness, and the sermon on the mount is similar to the law of Moses delivered on Mount Sinai.

Jesus is portrayed by Matthew as the “new” Moses, come to set his people free from their bondage and give them new law and teachings. To present this picture of Jesus, Matthew had to colour the traditions accordingly. Not everything in his gospel is historical.

Sooda wrote…….."Fiddling" with the gospels?

Matthew shaped the stories pertaining to Jesus to “show” that Jesus’ life was a fulfillment of the stories of Moses (see Exodus 1-20).


The Anointed……. Exodus 1: 20; (So God was kind to the midwives and the people increased and became even more numerous.) Oh yes, I can see where that shows that Jesus’ life was a fulfillment of the stories of Moses.

Only joking old girl, I know that you were referring to Chapter one to chapter 20.

Sooda wrote……. According to Matthew, the family of his Jesus flees to Egypt in order to escape the wrath of Herod “in order to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, ‘Out of Egypt I have called my Son'” (2:15).

The Anointed……. So it does, so it does. Matthew reveals that the wise men arrived at the palace of Herod the Great, early in 4 B, C., looking for the future King of Israel, two years after witnessing the heavenly sign that had heralded the birth of Jesus,

After leaving the palace of Herod, who had told them that they might find the child in Bethlehem of Judea, but seeing again in the north-east, the hairy star that had led them from Persia to Israel, they travelled in that direction until they saw the star Standing over a HOUSE in the small zealot commune named Nazareth, with it’s tail streaming up into the heavens,

Entering the ‘HOUSE’ in Nazareth (Not the Manger in Bethlehem of Judea) the wise men paid homage to the child Jesus, That very same night, the wise men, who would presumably have travelled to Jerusalem across the Kings Highway, were warned in a dream not to reveal to Herod the child’s whereabouts, and they returned home by a different route from which they had come, which would, more than likely, have been up through the northern route of Damascus, and Joseph was also warned to get out of bed immediately and take the child and his mother and flee into Egypt.

Herod’s secret police had eyes and ears throughout the entire land, and when he realised that he had been tricked and the wise men were not going to return and reveal the child’s location as promised, he was furious and gave the order to kill all the male children in the district that Herod's spies had confirmed that the wise men with their entourage had travelled to, which was around Bethlehem of Galilee, who were two years and below according to the time that he had learned from the wise men about when they had first sighted the star that had heralded the birth of the promised king and savour.

See Matthew 2:7, Then Herod called the Magi secretly and found out from them the ‘EXACT’ time the star had appeared

And Matthew 2: 16. ‘When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi, when the star had first appeared.’

According to Josephus the historian, Sepphoris, which was only about 4 miles from Bethlehem of Galilee, and a few kilometres from Nazareth, had a population of around thirty thousand and he called it, "The Ornament of Galilee."

Around the time of Herod’s death in the spring of 4BC, just after he had ordered the slaughter of the innocents around the district of Bethlehem of Galilee, who were two years and below, according to the time that the wise men had seen the heavenly sign that had heralded the birth of Jesus in 6 B.C. there were riots among the peasants of the area in Galilee of which Sepphoris was the centre. Judas, the son of Hezekias attacked the arsenal of Herod in the city of Sepphoris in order to arm the peasants.

The Romans under Quintillius Varus of Syria, attacked and burnt the city, putting down the uprising in which many families died and others were taken prisoner and transported to Rome, where they were sold as slaves. But Joseph, with his wife and her child had escaped the slaughter by fleeing into Egypt.

After a failed suicide attempt, which I believe may have been an option given to him by Caesar Augustus, in the spring of 4 BC, Herod the Great died, then in the spring of 3 B.C., after the death of Herod his father, when Antipas returned from Rome where his father’s will had been ratified by Augustus, he chose and rebuilt the magnificent city of Sepphoris as his capital city for ruling over Galilee.

After the death of Herod the Great in 4 B.C., in that same year after spending a few months in Egypt, the Lord called his son out of Egypt.

Sooda wrote……. The quotation comes from the book of Hosea 11:1 and refers to the Exodus of the children of Israel from their bondage in Egypt. Has NOTHING to do with Jesus.

The Anointed…….. You can say that again, Hosea was referring to the exodus of the Shepherd kings from Egypt, who then turned their backs on God, which has nothing to do with the man Jesus who remained loyal to OUR heavenly Father even to his cruel death on the stake.

Sooda wrote……. Matthew’s target market was the Jewish readers. Herod is made into a Pharoah like ruler, Jesus’s baptism is like Moses crossing the Red Sea, the forty days of temptation are like the forty years the children of Israel wandered in the wilderness, and the sermon on the mount is similar to the law of Moses delivered on Mount Sinai.

The Anointed…….. Yep! Most of the OT was but a shadow of the future redemption of man through the Son that would be born to the Great androgynous body of mankind, who EVE has become, ‘The Son of Man’ who filled his chosen prophet with his spirit/words, and who ceased to be an individual entity, when he abandoned his obedient earthly host body on the cross, and released all the righteous spirits who had been gathered to him in his ascension to the throne of the Most High in the creation, whose graves were opened, and who, three days later, entered the city and showed themselves to many.

See Matthew 27: 51-53; “At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs after Jesus' resurrection (Three days later) and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Sooda wrote…….. Jesus is portrayed by Matthew as the “new” Moses, come to set his people free from their bondage and give them new law and teachings. To present this picture of Jesus, Matthew had to colour the traditions accordingly. Not everything in his gospel is historical.

The Anointed…….. No, not everything in his gospel is historical, that is, according to the doubters of God’s word, such as yourself. But I see Jesus more as the new Joseph, who was sold for thirty coins, placed into an empty well where he remained in the bowels of the earth for three days and three nights before being sent into the land of First Born, where he would prepare a place for his brothers.

Catch you later old girl, I've got work to do.
 
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sooda

Veteran Member
Sooda wrote…….."Fiddling" with the gospels?

Matthew shaped the stories pertaining to Jesus to “show” that Jesus’ life was a fulfillment of the stories of Moses (see Exodus 1-20).


The Anointed……. Exodus 1: 20; (So God was kind to the midwives and the people increased and became even more numerous.) Oh yes, I can see where that shows that Jesus’ life was a fulfillment of the stories of Moses

Sooda wrote……. According to Matthew, the family of his Jesus flees to Egypt in order to escape the wrath of Herod “in order to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, ‘Out of Egypt I have called my Son'” (2:15).

The Anointed……. So it does, so it does. Matthew reveals that the wise men arrived at the palace of Herod the Great, early in 4 B, C., looking for the future King of Israel, two years after witnessing the heavenly sign that had heralded the birth of Jesus,

After leaving the palace of Herod, who had told them that they might find the child in Bethlehem of Judea, but seeing again in the north-east, the hairy star that had led them from Persia to Israel, they travelled in that direction until they saw the star Standing over a HOUSE in the small zealot commune named Nazareth, with it’s tail streaming up into the heavens,

Entering the ‘HOUSE’ in Nazareth (Not the Manger in Bethlehem of Judea) the wise men paid homage to the child Jesus, That very same night, the wise men, who would presumably have travelled to Jerusalem across the Kings Highway, were warned in a dream not to reveal to Herod the child’s whereabouts, and they returned home by a different route from which they had come, which would, more than likely, have been up through the northern route of Damascus, and Joseph was also warned to get out of bed immediately and take the child and his mother and flee into Egypt.

Herod’s secret police had eyes and ears throughout the entire land, and when he realised that he had been tricked and the wise men were not going to return and reveal the child’s location as promised, he was furious and gave the order to kill all the male children in the district that Herod's spies had confirmed that the wise men with their entourage had travelled to, which was around Bethlehem of Galilee, who were two years and below according to the time that he had learned from the wise men about when they had first sighted the star that had heralded the birth of the promised king and savour.

See Matthew 2:7, Then Herod called the Magi secretly and found out from them the ‘EXACT’ time the star had appeared

And Matthew 2: 16. ‘When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi.’.

According to Josephus the historian, Sepphoris, which was only about 4 miles from Bethlehem of Galilee, and a few kilometres from Nazareth, had a population of around thirty thousand and he called it, "The Ornament of Galilee."

Around the time of Herod’s death in the spring of 4BC, just after he had ordered the slaughter of the innocents around the district of Bethlehem of Galilee, who were two years and below, according to the time that the wise men had seen the heavenly sign that had heralded the birth of Jesus in 6 B.C. there were riots among the peasants of the area in Galilee of which Sepphoris was the centre. Judas, the son of Hezekias attacked the arsenal of Herod in the city of Sepphoris in order to arm the peasants.

The Romans under Quintillius Varus of Syria, attacked and burnt the city, putting down the uprising in which many families died and others were taken prisoner and transported to Rome, where they were sold as slaves. But Joseph, with his wife and her child had escaped the slaughter by fleeing into Egypt.

After a failed suicide attempt, which I believe may have been an option given to him by Caesar Augustus, in the spring of 4 BC, Herod the Great died, then in the spring of 3 B.C., after the death of Herod his father, when Antipas returned from Rome where his father’s will had been ratified by Augustus, he chose and rebuilt the magnificent city of Sepphoris as his capital city for ruling over Galilee.

After the death of Herod the Great in 4 B.C., in that same year after spending a few months in Egypt, the Lord called his son out of Egypt.

Sooda wrote……. The quotation comes from the book of Hosea 11:1 and refers to the Exodus of the children of Israel from their bondage in Egypt. Has NOTHING to do with Jesus.

The Anointed…….. You can say that again, Hosea was referring to the exodus of the Shepherd kings from Egypt, who then turned their backs on God, which has nothing to do with the man Jesus who remained loyal to OUR heavenly Father even to his cruel death on the stake.

Sooda wrote……. Matthew’s target market was the Jewish readers. Herod is made into a Pharoah like ruler, Jesus’s baptism is like Moses crossing the Red Sea, the forty days of temptation are like the forty years the children of Israel wandered in the wilderness, and the sermon on the mount is similar to the law of Moses delivered on Mount Sinai.

The Anointed…….. Yep! Most of the OT was but a shadow of the future redemption of man through the Son that would be born to the Great androgynous body of mankind, who EVE has become, ‘The Son of Man’ who filled his chosen prophet with his spirit/words, and who ceased to be an individual entity, when he abandoned his obedient earthly host body on the cross, and released all the righteous spirits who had been gathered to him in his ascension to the throne of the Most High in the creation, whose graves were opened, and who, three days later, entered the city and showed themselves to many.

See Matthew 27: 51-53; “At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs after Jesus' resurrection (Three days later) and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Sooda wrote…….. Jesus is portrayed by Matthew as the “new” Moses, come to set his people free from their bondage and give them new law and teachings. To present this picture of Jesus, Matthew had to colour the traditions accordingly. Not everything in his gospel is historical.

The Anointed…….. No, not everything in his gospel is historical, that is, according to the doubters of God’s word, such as yourself. But I see Jesus more as the new Joseph, who was sold for thirty coins, placed into an empty well where he remained in the bowels of the earth for three days and three nights before being sent into the land of First Born, where he would prepare a place for his brothers.

You have Hosea completely wrong.. its not about the Hyksos.

Meanwhile,

"Moses said, 'The Lord your God will send you a prophet, an Israelite like me. Listen to everything he tells you. “Moses said, ‘THE LORD GOD SHALL RAISE UP FOR YOU A PROPHET LIKE ME FROM YOUR BRETHREN; TO HIM YOU SHALL GIVE HEED in everything He says to you.
Acts 3:22
 

sooda

Veteran Member
@The Anointed
@old badger
@Tumah

Hosea 11 has NOTHING to do with the shepherd kings or the Hyksos.

Hosea 11:14

11 “When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. 2 But the more they were called, the more they went away from me. [They sacrificed to the Baals and they burned incense to images. 3 It was I who taught Ephraim to walk, taking them by the arms;
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
@The Anointed
@old badger
@Tumah

Hosea 11 has NOTHING to do with the shepherd kings or the Hyksos.

Hosea 11:14

11 “When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. 2 But the more they were called, the more they went away from me. [They sacrificed to the Baals and they burned incense to images. 3 It was I who taught Ephraim to walk, taking them by the arms;

Sooda wrote...…. Hosea 11 has NOTHING to do with the shepherd kings or the Hyksos.

The Anointed...….. wrong again old girl. The Shepherd Kings are identified by Josephus the Historian and the Egyptian Manetho, as the Israelites, who, according to Josephus, departed Egypt in 1567 B. C., some forty years before the destruction of Jericho.
.
From ‘The World Book Dictionary,’ (Hyksos) “A succession of six foreign rulers of Egypt—from about 1730 B.C. to about 1570 B.C; Shepherd Kings.” --- And from the Encyclopedia Britannica, ‘Hyksos’, invaders who were also called the Shepherd Kings, who in the time of “King Tutimaios” entered Egypt and took possession of it without striking a blow and it is said here that Josephus the historian, identifies them with the Israelites and that their reign ended in 1567 B.C.

Genesis 41: After Joseph the son of Israel, had revealed to the king that his dreams were a prophecy telling of a seven year period of plenty, which would be followed by a seven year period of severe drought, Joseph is made Governor of all Egypt, and all Egyptians were commanded by the King to obey him.

The King removed his royal ring with its engraved seal and put it on the finger of Joseph. He was given the second royal chariot and a guard of honour who went ahead of him crying out, “Make way, make way.” And the King said: I am King, but no one in all of Egypt shall so much as lift a hand or a foot without Joseph’s permission.

He gave Joseph an Egyptian wife, Asenath, the daughter of the High priest of Heliopolis, who prophesied that if ever the bones of Joseph left Egypt, the LIGHT of Egypt would go with him. For that reason, a permanent guard was set up to keep watch over the tomb of Joseph, in order that no one could remove the mummified body of Joseph.

During the seven years of plenty, Joseph gathered a percentage of the Egyptian grain crop as a tax, which was stored in silos throughout Egypt. In the early stages of the great seven-year drought, the Egyptians had to buy their grain from Joseph, when their money had all gone they traded their possessions and livestock, after which, they were forced to sign their land over for grain in order to survive.

Genesis 47: 20-21. Joseph bought all the land of Egypt for the king. Every Egyptian was forced to sell their land, because the famine was so severe; Joseph made slaves of all the people from one end of Egypt to the other, without striking a blow.

If Josephus the historian is correct and the exodus of the Shepherd Kings did occur in 1567 BC, and Jericho was destroyed after they had wandered in the desert for 40 years, then according to the biblical account, the destruction of Jericho would have occurred around 1527 BC. 1567-40=1527.

Kathleen Kenyon, a most respected archaeologist dug at Jericho over the seasons between 1952 to 1958, her results were confirmed in 1995 by radiocarbon tests, which dated the destruction of Jericho to 1562 BC (Plus/minus 38 years) with a certainty of 95%.

The radiocarbon tests which dated the destruction of Jericho to 1562 BC (plus/minus 38 years) with a certainty of 95%, confirm that the biblical date of 1527 BC for the destruction, agrees with Kathleen Kenyon’s findings.

1562 (minus 38 years) [1562-38=1524 BC.] this would mean that Jericho fell somewhere between 1562 and 1524 BC, close enough to the 40 years after Josephus’ date for the Exodus in 1567. [1567-40=1527 BC]

Now you run along and search the internet for some self published article by one of your biblically ignorant atheist scholars, who attempt to dispute the truths as revealed in the scriptures.
 
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sooda

Veteran Member
Sooda wrote...…. Hosea 11 has NOTHING to do with the shepherd kings or the Hyksos.

The Anointed...….. wrong again old girl. The Shepherd Kings are identified by Josephus the Historian and the Egyptian Manetho, as the Israelites, who, according to Josephus, departed Egypt in 1567 B. C., some forty years before the destruction of Jericho.
.
From ‘The World Book Dictionary,’ (Hyksos) “A succession of six foreign rulers of Egypt—from about 1730 B.C. to about 1570 B.C; Shepherd Kings.” --- And from the Encyclopedia Britannica, ‘Hyksos’, invaders who were also called the Shepherd Kings, who in the time of “King Tutimaios” entered Egypt and took possession of it without striking a blow and it is said here that Josephus the historian, identifies them with the Israelites and that their reign ended in 1567 B.C.

Genesis 41: After Joseph had revealed to the king that his dreams were a prophecy telling of a seven year period of plenty, which would be followed by a seven year period of severe drought, Joseph is made Governor of all Egypt, and all Egyptians were commanded by the King to obey him. The King removed his royal ring with its engraved seal and put it on the finger of Joseph. He was given the second royal chariot and a guard of honour who went ahead of him crying out, “Make way, make way.” And the King said: I am King, but no one in all of Egypt shall so much as lift a hand or a foot without Joseph’s permission. He gave Joseph an Egyptian wife, Asenath, the daughter of the High priest of Heliopolis, who prophesied that if ever the bones of Joseph left Egypt, the LIGHT of Egypt would go with him. For that reason, a permanent guard was set up to keep watch over the tomb of Joseph, in order that no one could remove the mummified body of Joseph.

During the seven years of plenty, Joseph gathered a percentage of the Egyptian grain crop as a tax, which was stored in silos throughout Egypt. In the early stages of the great seven-year drought, the Egyptians had to buy their grain from Joseph, when their money had all gone they traded their possessions and livestock, after which, they were forced to sign their land over for grain in order to survive.

Genesis 47: 20-21. Joseph bought all the land of Egypt for the king. Every Egyptian was forced to sell their land, because the famine was so severe; Joseph made slaves of all the people from one end of Egypt to the other, without striking a blow.

If Josephus the historian is correct and the exodus of the Shepherd Kings did occur in 1567 BC, and Jericho was destroyed after they had wandered in the desert for 40 years, then according to the biblical account, the destruction of Jericho would have occurred around 1527 BC. 1567-40=1527.

Kathleen Kenyon, a most respected archaeologist dug at Jericho over the seasons between 1952 to 1958, her results were confirmed in 1995 by radiocarbon tests, which dated the destruction of Jericho to 1562 BC (Plus/minus 38 years) with a certainty of 95%.

The radiocarbon tests which dated the destruction of Jericho to 1562 BC (plus/minus 38 years) with a certainty of 95%, confirm that the biblical date of 1527 BC for the destruction, agrees with Kathleen Kenyon’s findings.

1562 (minus 38 years) [1562-38=1524 BC.] this would mean that Jericho fell somewhere between 1562 and 1524 BC, close enough to the 40 years after Josephus’ date for the Exodus in 1567. [1567-40=1527 BC]

Now you run along and search the internet for some self published article by one of your biblically ignorant atheist scholars, who attempt to dispute the truths as revealed in the scriptures.

Hosea is not referring to the Hyksos.. Its says that Israel, his beloved son is called out of Egypt. I mean really.. You can read it for yourself.

Josephus wasn't even born until after the crucifixion.

1560 BC is 300 years too early.. Check your facts again.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Hosea is not referring to the Hyksos.. Its says that Israel, his beloved son is called out of Egypt. I mean really.. You can read it for yourself.

Josephus wasn't even born until after the crucifixion.

1560 BC is 300 years too early.. Check your facts again.

Solomon's Temple was destroyed in 587 B. C., according to Josephus the historian, who identified the Israelites as the shepherd kings, the Temple stood for 470 years 6 months and ten days after it was constructed, and the construction of the temple took 7 years, and according to 1 Kings 6: 1; the construction began 480 years after the Israelites left Egypt.

Sooda wrote...…. 1560 BC is 300 years too early.. Check your facts again.

The Anointed...…. Well we all think that it is you grandma, who should check again, your erroneous belief as to the date of the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt..


587+471+7+480=1545 B.C., according to these dates, if they are correct, Josephus, who puts the date of the exodus as being around 1567 B.C., appears to have been 22 years out, as to the departure of the Israelite shepherd Kings from Egypt.

Solomon's Temple - Wikipedia. Note the 470 years 6 months and ten days.

 
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sooda

Veteran Member
Solomon's Temple was destroyed in 587 B. C., according to Josephus the historian, who identified the Israelites as the shepherd kings, the Temple stood for 470 years 6 months and ten days after it was constructed, and the construction of the temple took 7 years, and according to 1 Kings 6: 1; the construction began 480 years after the Israelites left Egypt.

Sooda wrote...…. 1560 BC is 300 years too early.. Check your facts again.

The Anointed...…. Well we all think that it is you grandma, who should check again, your erroneous belief as to the date of the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt..


587+471+7+480=1545 B.C., according to these dates, if they are correct, Josephus, who puts the date of the exodus as being around 1567 B.C., appears to have been 22 years out, as to the departure of the Israelite shepherd Kings from Egypt.

Solomon's Temple - Wikipedia. Note the 470 years 6 months and ten days.


Josephus wasn't born until 37 AD so he's pretty far removed from the Exodus and the first temple.

The best guess for the Exodus is 1400 to 1200 BC and that gets a little murky since "Moses" doesn't remember the name of the Pharaoh. The key to the tale is that the God of Israel beat the gods of the Pharaoh.

The Hyksos weren't Hebrews although they did travel thru Palestine on their way to Egypt.

In any case the Bible doesn't say the Hyksos were Hebrews... and Hosea 11 makes it abundantly clear he was writing about Israel not the Shephard Kings.

Most scholars think Josephus was in error.

Hyksos or Hebrews? The Middle Kingdom of Egypt « Jewish ...
Jewish History - we bring Jewish history to life.hyksos-or-hebrews
Josephus Flavius
, Jewish historian of the 1st century CE and author of The Antiquities of the Jews, identified the Hyksos with the Hebrews. Most historians today disagree, but there are some striking similarities. First, the Hyksos people were from an alien culture and did not follow the Egyptian religion

The Pentateuch was written between 600 BC and 400 BC.. during and after the Babylonian exile.

The exile began in 598/7 and 587/6 bce and ended in 538 bce, when the Persian conqueror of Babylonia, Cyrus the Great, gave the Jews permission to return to Palestine.

Most scholars think Moses was a fictional character and that the Exodus either didn't happen or was a much smaller event.

You might find some clues in the Ugaritic Tablets or the Elba Archives.
 

Neuropteron

Active Member
The most thorough examination of literacy in Palestine is by a professor of Jewish studies at the University of London, Catherine Hezser, who shows that in the days of Jesus probably only 3 percent of Jews in Palestine were literate.

Thank you,
I appriciate the corroborative reference.

Nonetheless, if you look in Hezser’s book, there is a chapter called “Degrees and Distribution of Literacy,” which is the last chapter in the book.
At the beginning of that chapter, Hezser wrote:
"... the exact literacy rate amongst ancient Jews cannot be determined,....".
So According to her own words the 3% literacy rate is pure speculation.

Another Bible Sholar, Bart Ehrman also makes an estimation of the literacy level of Israelites. His estimate is 10-15 %

"More People Were Literate in Ancient Judah Than We Knew".
This conclusion was reached by a research journalist in 2016 Involving interviews of:
William Schniedewind, an expert on Biblical studies and Semitic languages at UCLA, and Arie Shaus, a Ph.D. student in applied mathematics at Tel Aviv University and one of the lead authors of the study of Semitic Languages, he stated: "Now there’s very good evidence to say that writing was everywhere, from the upper echelons of the Judahite army, down to the level of vice-quartermaster of some remote, isolated fort”.

Since most of the Greek scriptures is made of letters written to the congregations and even some individuals. These letters would have had little effect, if a large majority were illiterate.
Additionally the admonition of Jesus to take in "accurate knowldege"(John 17:3) would have had no practical value for an illiterate nation.

Historically there has been a small number of nations that were know for being illiterate.They passed limited knowlege through word of mouth. The Israelites were not amongst them.

Atheist are attempting to make a connection with illiteracy and faith. In actual fact literacy is decreasing in the modern world while Atheism is increasing.

Cheers
 
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