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Why do not some understand that the Bible teaches that Jesus is God?

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I've answered you, as you can see here. I have explained everything to you, but if you still think you are right, then so be it. @Deeje

OK, I see that you cannot answer specific questions outside of you copy and paste responses. You do understand that this has all been done to death here? You came in swinging and it looks like you hit a tree. :D You are obviously not used to being taken to task over your answers....? I know some sites don't let you post things that disagree with Christendom's position on things...RF isn't one of them. But you knew that....right?

There were quite a few points in my post that did not get a response.

One especially was the one about the holy spirit....if its an equal part of the 'godhead' then we should see 'him' getting an equal status. I asked....

"In all of the scriptures that speak of Jesus at his Father's right hand, can you give me a single scripture that puts the holy spirit at his left? Can you do that?"

I'd at least like an answer to that one.....

And.....what did you think of the Catholic Church's admission that the trinity wasn't even official church doctrine till almost 400 years after Jesus died? It was only accepted through much controversy. Does that give you pause for reflection at all?
 

calm

Active Member
OK, I see that you cannot answer specific questions outside of you copy and paste responses. You do understand that this has all been done to death here? You came in swinging and it looks like you hit a tree. :D You are obviously not used to being taken to task over your answers....? I know some sites don't let you post things that disagree with Christendom's position on things...RF isn't one of them. But you knew that....right?

There were quite a few points in my post that did not get a response.

One especially was the one about the holy spirit....if its an equal part of the 'godhead' then we should see 'him' getting an equal status. I asked....

"In all of the scriptures that speak of Jesus at his Father's right hand, can you give me a single scripture that puts the holy spirit at his left? Can you do that?"

I'd at least like an answer to that one.....

And.....what did you think of the Catholic Church's admission that the trinity wasn't even official church doctrine till almost 400 years after Jesus died? It was only accepted through much controversy. Does that give you pause for reflection at all?

I don't believe in the Trinity because the Catholic Church says that. I believe in the Trinity because it is written in the Bible.
It doesn't make sense to discuss with you no matter what I explain, you will twist it so that it matches your faith.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I don't believe in the Trinity because it comes from the Catholic Church. I believe in the Trinity because it is written in the Bible.

That is just the point....it isn't a Biblical belief. It predates Christianity by centuries as I showed you. It was formulated by the Catholic church, but not from the Bible.

The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deuteronomy 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.”—(1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.

If the Catholic church admits that..."The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective."

Don't you have to wonder about its authenticity? After all, to put another 'god' in place of the Father is breaking the first Commandment. (Exodus 20:3)

It doesn't make sense to discuss with you no matter what I explain, you will twist it so that it matches your faith.

And you believe that trinitarians would never do that. :rolleyes: I showed you the example in the KJV of blatant altering of the text to support the trinity.....did you miss it?

As I see it, we all have the same choices about our beliefs. According to Matthew 7:21-23, some of us are going to be in for complete rejection by Christ. That said, can you tell me what percentage of Christians would reject the trinity? Since "few" are on the road to life according to Jesus, (Matthew 7:13-14) perhaps its not the majority who are on the right track?
 

calm

Active Member
That is just the point....it isn't a Biblical belief. It predates Christianity by centuries as I showed you. It was formulated by the Catholic church, but not from the Bible.

The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deuteronomy 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.”—(1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.

If the Catholic church admits that..."The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective."

Don't you have to wonder about its authenticity? After all, to put another 'god' in place of the Father is breaking the first Commandment. (Exodus 20:3)



And you believe that trinitarians would never do that. :rolleyes: I showed you the example in the KJV of blatant altering of the text to support the trinity.....did you miss it?

As I see it, we all have the same choices about our beliefs. According to Matthew 7:21-23, some of us are going to be in for complete rejection by Christ. That said, can you tell me what percentage of Christians would reject the trinity? Since "few" are on the road to life according to Jesus, (Matthew 7:13-14) perhaps its not the majority who are on the right track?

As I said, I don't believe in the Trinity because someone else says it, but because it is in the Bible. I can read and i can use my own head.
Whoever looks at the Bible in its entire context will realize that the Trinity is true.
And the Trinity does not teach three gods, but only one God. One God in 3.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
As I said, I don't believe in the Trinity because someone else says it, but because it is in the Bible. I can read and i can use my own head.
Whoever looks at the Bible in its entire context will realize that the Trinity is true.
And the Trinity does not teach three gods, but only one God. One God in 3.

No matter how you try to explain it...it isn't biblical. Jesus did not teach it. Its called indoctrination.....are you a victim?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
And the Trinity does not teach three gods, but only one God. One God in 3.
Yep, but the JW's continually lie and say that it's three gods, and they do this even when one cites official sources from various churches that clearly shows that they're lying. But then they just come back and lie some more.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
I don't believe in the Trinity because the Catholic Church says that. I believe in the Trinity because it is written in the Bible.
It doesn't make sense to discuss with you no matter what I explain, you will twist it so that it matches your faith.

Seems like splitting hairs to me.. Is it important whether Jesus is God or if he's the son of God?

Matthew 16 : 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
  1. Jesus is omnipotent (Revelation 1:8) (Matthew 28:18)
  2. Jesus is omnipresent (Matthew 28:20)
  3. A prophet calls Jesus God (Isaiah 9:6)
  4. The apostles call Jesus God (John 20:28-29) (Romans 9:5) (1 John 5:20)
  5. God the father calls Jesus God (Hebrews 1:8)
  6. Jesus is the image of the invisible Al (Colossians 1:15)
  7. God is the shepherd (Palm 23,1) = Jesus is the shepherd (John 10:11)
  8. God became flesh (human) and Jesus is this flesh (John 1:1+14) (1 Timothy 3:16)
  9. Jesus is worshiped (Acts 7:59-60)
  10. Jesus accepts prayers (John 14:13-14)
  11. Jesus and the father are one (John 10:30)
  12. God is the only Redeemer (Isaiah 43:11) = Jesus is the Redeemer (Luke 2:11)
  13. God will judge the world (Psalm 98:9) = Jesus is the judge (Matthew 25:31-46)
  14. God is the eternal (Psalm 90:2) = Jesus is the eternal (Revelation 1:18)
  15. God is the rock (1.Samuel 2:2) = Jesus is the rock (1 Corinthians 10:4)
  16. God is the Lords of Lords (Deuteronomy 10:17) = Jesus is the Lord of Lords (Revelation 19:16)
  17. God is the first and the last (Isaiah 44:6) = Jesus is the first and the last (Revelation 1:17-18)
  18. Jesus forgives sins (Mark 2:5)
  19. Jesus demands that one should honor him as one does God honor (John 5:23)
  20. Jesus is the Creator (Rom. 11:36) (Col. 1:16-17)
  21. Jesus is omniscient (John 21:17) (John 6:64)
  22. Who has seen Jesus, has seen God(John 14:9)
  23. God is the light (Psalm 1:27) = Jesus is the light (John 8:12)
  24. Whoever believes in Jesus believes in God (John 12:44)
is not that clear enough?

I don't see the Bible as teaching anything. It is just a written record of events. Maybe they happened, maybe they didn't but that is not the point. The interpretation of the Bible is what is taught by Christianity. Such as you are doing now.

So you are using the Bible to teach your belief about Jesus according to your interpretation. You understand you are doing this right? You are by line number teaching the meaning of each passage you are quoting.

So what is your expertise/credentials?
 

calm

Active Member
Seems like splitting hairs to me.. Is it important whether Jesus is God or if he's the son of God?

Matthew 16 : 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Jesus is the son of God and God.
John 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas,because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Jesus is the son of God and God.
John 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas,because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Thomas who is called the twin and who is actually Judas the brother of Jesus, was not present on the first night that Jesus appeared to his disciples, and refused to believe them, that Jesus had been resurrected, saying; "Unless I see the scars of the nails in his hand and put my fingers in those scars and my hand in his side, I will not believe. John 20:24-26.

It was this disbelief in his resurrection that Jesus referred to when he said, Because you have seen me, you now believe, blessed are those who believe (IN THE RESURRECTION) and yet have not seen.

As to Thomas calling Jesus God, we can dismiss that as a blood rush by Thomas Jude, for Jesus had already said to Mary Magdalen in John 20: 17; "Go to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
 

calm

Active Member
Thomas who is called the twin and who is actually Judas the brother of Jesus, was not present on the first night that Jesus appeared to his disciples, and refused to believe them, that Jesus had been resurrected, saying; "Unless I see the scars of the nails in his hand and put my fingers in those scars and my hand in his side, I will not believe. John 20:24-26.

It was this disbelief in his resurrection that Jesus referred to when he said, Because you have seen me, you now believe, blessed are those who believe (IN THE RESURRECTION) and yet have not seen.

As to Thomas calling Jesus God, we can dismiss that as a blood rush by Thomas Jude, for Jesus had already said to Mary Magdalen in John 20: 17; "Go to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
You do not understand the Trinity. If you understood the Trinity, you would also understand that John 20:17 is not a contradiction at all. And I don't believe that Thomas called Jesus God in a "blood rush". If Jesus were not God and Thomas calls him God then that is blasphemy and Jesus should have corrected him. But he did not.
 
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The Anointed

Well-Known Member
You do not understand the Trinity. If you understood the Trinity, you would also understand that John 20:17 is not a contradiction at all. And I don't believe that Thomas called Jesus God in a "blood rush". If Jesus were not God and Thomas calls him God then that is blasphemy and Jesus should have corrected him. But he did not.

There is no such thing as the Trinity. God is one in who all exist. God is the creation itself, and mankind sat in the throne of the MOST HIGH to have developed within the creation, which is God made manifest, and 'The Son of Man' is the heir and successor to the throne of the Most High in the creation.

God is the Logos, who is the essential divine reality of the universe, the eternal spirit from which all being originates and to which all must return at the close of each cycle of universal activity

It was the spirit of 'The Son of Man' the Most High in the creation, which descended from his highpoint in time, to fill the man Jesus and reveal himself and the awesome sacrifice he makes for his elect and chosen.

We must all die once (The Physical death) then we, the minds/spirit that have developed within those bodies, go off into judgement, The righteous spirits who have paid the blood price for their inherited sin and any mistakes for which they are repentant, are divided from the unrighteous dead, and they enter into rest with the bosom of Abraham, and over those, the second death has no power.

Jesus was the compilation of all those righteous spirits over whom death, 'The Ruler of this world' had no power.

Jesus, who was resurrected on the first day after the weekly Sabbath that followed the Passover, which is the festival of “First Fruits,” was the first fruits to be harvested from the body of mankind. He was the first of many brothers and sisters, who are to be conformed to the glorious image of God’s only begotten Son, who is the Spirit, that according to our concept of one direction linear time, is still currently developing within the androgynous body of mankind, (EVE) and who pays the penalty for the sins of the body in which he develops.

For the life of the woman (The Body of Mankind) is justified by the child (The Son of Man) that she bears to her Lord.

John 1: 12/13; “But as many as received him, to them gave he the power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name [I Am Who I Am].”

And they, like our brother Jesus, who was the first born of the sons of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, are born sons of God, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but by the Spirit of the Lord, which descended upon the man Jesus in the form of a dove, as the heavenly voice was heard to say: “You are my son, today I have begotten thee.” [My chosen Heir and Successor.]

Jesus, is the first to win the victory and to receive a share of the glorious immortal body of light, which is that of our heavenly saviour, which body of light was torn asunder and poured out as fire on the heads of all those who believed his words as spoken through his servant "Jesus" for our salvation.

In his new glorious body of brilliant and blinding light, He, on the road to Damascus, answered Saul's question, "Who are you Lord?" with these words, "I am Jesus of Nazareth whom you persecute,"

And Jesus our brother, was given divine glory and now sits in the throne of our Father, and all the chosen ones who have born the image of the first Adam, shall also bear the IMAGE of the glorified Jesus, "The Second Adam," (in the eternal process of change/evolution, for mankind does not close the chapter in the book of evolution) a new creation of bodies of Glorious and blinding Light which is the new Temple of our Lord that is to replace God’s old tabernacle =temporary tent (Mankind) as the ruler on this earth of all creation.

In the innermost sanctuary of his temporary tent, behind the veil of the flesh, dwells your parental spirit as he awaits the creation of his new Glorious temple of Light.

First, "MAN" (man (אנושׁ : 'enosh') in English, mortal human beings) was created a little lower than the angels, then he is crowned with glory and all creation is placed beneath his feet. All creation is placed beneath the feet of MAN (man (אנושׁ : 'enosh) in English, mortal human beings) WHO IS CROWNED WITH GLORY, we have not yet seen this happen. But we have seen Jesus, the first born from the dead, who has won the victory and was given divine glory by our heavenly Father and saviour, and is now incontestably divine and sits in the heavenly throne of the MOST HIGH in the creation: and who, in Revelation 3: 21; invites those, who win the victory also, to sit with him in our Father’s throne of Godhead within the creation. And all creation Visible and invisible, which, according to Paul, includes even the angels, will bow at their feet.

In John 20: 17; Jesus says to Mary Magdalene; “Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to ‘THE’ Father: but go to my brothers and say to them, “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God, etc.

OUR Father, who art in heaven.
 
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sooda

Veteran Member
There is no such thing as the Trinity. God is one in who all exist. God is the creation itself, and mankind sat in the throne of the MOST HIGH to have developed within the creation, which is God made manifest, and 'The Son of Man' is the heir and successor to the throne of the Most High in the creation.

God is the Logos, who is the essential divine reality of the universe, the eternal spirit from which all being originates and to which all must return at the close of each cycle of universal activity

It was the spirit of 'The Son of Man' the Most High in the creation, which descended from his highpoint in time, to fill the man Jesus and reveal himself and the awesome sacrifice he makes for his elect and chosen.

We must all die once (The Physical death) then we, the minds/spirit that have developed within those bodies, go off into judgement, The righteous spirits who have paid the blood price for their inherited sin and any mistakes for which they are repentant, are divided from the unrighteous dead, and they enter into rest with the bosom of Abraham, and over those, the second death has no power.

Jesus was the compilation of all those righteous spirits over whom death, 'The Ruler of this world' had no power.

Jesus, who was resurrected on the first day after the weekly Sabbath that followed the Passover, which is the festival of “First Fruits,” was the first fruits to be harvested from the body of mankind. He was the first of many brothers and sisters, who are to be conformed to the glorious image of God’s only begotten Son, who is the Spirit, that according to our concept of one direction linear time, is still currently developing within the androgynous body of mankind, (EVE) and who pays the penalty for the sins of the body in which he develops.

For the life of the woman (The Body of Mankind) is justified by the child (The Son of Man) that she bears to her Lord.

John 1: 12/13; “But as many as received him, to them gave he the power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name [I Am Who I Am].”

And they, like our brother Jesus, who was the first born of the sons of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, are born sons of God, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but by the Spirit of the Lord, which descended upon the man Jesus in the form of a dove, as the heavenly voice was heard to say: “You are my son, today I have begotten thee.” [My chosen Heir and Successor.]

Jesus, is the first to win the victory and to receive a share of the glorious immortal body of light, which is that of our heavenly saviour, which body of light was torn asunder and poured out as fire on the heads of all those who believed his words as spoken through his servant "Jesus" for our salvation.

In his new glorious body of brilliant and blinding light, He, on the road to Damascus, answered Saul's question, "Who are you Lord?" with these words, "I am Jesus of Nazareth whom you persecute,"

And Jesus our brother, was given divine glory and now sits in the throne of our Father, and all the chosen ones who have born the image of the first Adam, shall also bear the IMAGE of the glorified Jesus, "The Second Adam," (in the eternal process of change/evolution, for mankind does not close the chapter in the book of evolution) a new creation of bodies of Glorious and blinding Light which is the new Temple of our Lord that is to replace God’s old tabernacle =temporary tent (Mankind) as the ruler on this earth of all creation.

In the innermost sanctuary of his temporary tent, behind the veil of the flesh, dwells your parental spirit as he awaits the creation of his new Glorious temple of Light.

First, "MAN" (man (אנושׁ : 'enosh') in English, mortal human beings) was created a little lower than the angels, then he is crowned with glory and all creation is placed beneath his feet. All creation is placed beneath the feet of MAN (man (אנושׁ : 'enosh) in English, mortal human beings) WHO IS CROWNED WITH GLORY, we have not yet seen this happen. But we have seen Jesus, the first born from the dead, who has won the victory and was given divine glory by our heavenly Father and saviour, and is now incontestably divine and sits in the heavenly throne of the MOST HIGH in the creation: and who, in Revelation 3: 21; invites those, who win the victory also, to sit with him in our Father’s throne of Godhead within the creation. And all creation Visible and invisible, which, according to Paul, includes even the angels, will bow at their feet.

In John 20: 17; Jesus says to Mary Magdalene; “Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to ‘THE’ Father: but go to my brothers and say to them, “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God, etc.

OUR Father, who art in heaven.

Why are you preaching?
 

Gicaldo

New Member
I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but if Jesus and God are one and the same, then did Jesus sacrifice himself to himself in order to absolve humanity? Also, if I remember correctly, Jesus prayed a lot, and before Judas' betrayal even told God something to the effect of "Your will should happen, not mine". Sounds like two different entities to me...
 

sooda

Veteran Member
I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but if Jesus and God are one and the same, then did Jesus sacrifice himself to himself in order to absolve humanity? Also, if I remember correctly, Jesus prayed a lot, and before Judas' betrayal even told God something to the effect of "Your will should happen, not mine". Sounds like two different entities to me...

It sure doesn't make any sense. Considering Matthew and Luke I doubt its even the truth.
 

Gicaldo

New Member
Why are you preaching?

The title itself is already preachy. It implies that it's a shut case that God and Jesus are the same person, and send to be directed at people who share the same opinion to validate it, as opposed to people of the opposite opinion. Especially after reading a few posts here, I'm pretty sure the OP isn't interested in an actual debate. In fact, I almost regret posting here because it sure seems like a waste of time.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
The title itself is already preachy. It implies that it's a shut case that God and Jesus are the same person, and send to be directed at people who share the same opinion to validate it, as opposed to people of the opposite opinion. Especially after reading a few posts here, I'm pretty sure the OP isn't interested in an actual debate. In fact, I almost regret posting here because it sure seems like a waste of time.

The Bible contradicts itself numerous times on whether or not Jesus ever said he was god. Yes, it is a waste of time .. and dishonest as well.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Why are you preaching?

Unlike some, who are continually preaching their atheist views, and that is, that the bible cannot be trusted, I am merely pointing out the truths that are to be found in the Holy Scriptures.

Now off you go and continue the work that YOUR father has given you to do.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Unlike some, who are continually preaching their atheist views, and that is, that the bible cannot be trusted, I am merely pointing out the truths that are to be found in the Holy Scriptures.

Now off you go and continue the work that YOUR father has given you to do.

Excuse me?

The Hyksos were a people of diverse origins, possibly from Western Asia, who settled in the eastern Nile Delta some time before 1650 BC.

The arrival of the Hyksos led to the end of the Thirteenth Dynasty and initiated the Second Intermediate Period of Egypt. In the context of Ancient Egypt, the term "Asiatic" refers to people native to areas east of Egypt.

Immigration by Canaanite populations preceded the Hyksos. Canaanites first appeared in Egypt at the end of the 12th Dynastyc. 1800 BC or c. 1720 BC and established an independent realm in the eastern Nile …

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyksos
 
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