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The struggle between faith and reason

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
I do. Disgustingly, in my mind, I would see another woman who looked like my mother and think to myself, why my mom, and not this woman?

...It didn't seem fair.

My mom passed away about a year ago. It's very hard to continue on, after losing someone so close. I now know, there is nobody left I can explain my accomplishments and achievements to, who will be genuinely happy and excited to hear them. Other people only 'pretend' to care.

I'm sorry about your mother and you have my sincerest condolences. I definitely feel you in regards to not having someone excited about your accomplishments in your life. In addition I know the feeling of seeing other women who favor our mother. I believe that neurologically/psychologically its the mind/brain way of coping with stress and loss. However to ask the question why, I too can relate. I know you're not much of a fan of Islam but I do take comfort in the following:

Money, wealth, power, beauty or youth, one day everything will perish, everything comes and goes, one day all will mix in the soil. Keep remembering Allah, the only one, the irresistible

{ Everyone upon the earth will perish }


"Everyone from all nations, from all generations, will be made to stand as equal in the Presence of Allah/God."

The Quran 55:26


Your mother, my mother, your father, my father, you, me, the entire RF boards will all return (in my opinion) to the Creator of all. Although you and I miss our dear ones I believe while we continue to exist we become the best human beings possible and do what is right to benefit ourselves and humanity.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
The cold reality of truth here: that we are all going to physically die, can happen at any time/age, in an array of different ways.

Truest words. I haven't realized that until the recent passing of my friend who died in his early 50's.

I also hear a lot of people say things like, ‘I’m so thankful that’s not me or happening to me or mine.’ I’m personally not thankful for anything in this existence, because it would feel selfish. For even if I’m well, someone else is not. It is silly to be thankful for health while another has poor health, etc.

This is by far the noblest thing I've read today.

As far as a more powerful entity in regards to potential creation: only a maligned entity would put people through these random, auto-genetic conditions. But that wouldn’t mean there could not be a better entity to put trust in. Perhaps there is nothing this better entity can do about this dump, until after a physical expiration.

Interesting perspective. I believe (and this is just my deduction of reason based on the observations from my profession and what I've experienced in life), that as a part of learning God gives us these horrible afflictions, diseases, deformities, as means to strive better. Human beings unfortunately learn through the suffering of others. We not only learn but we become more empathetic to the suffering of people, this in turn leads to the creation of organizations to fight diseases, malnutrition, and a host of other issues. I do think God is much like an engineer watching his creation and perhaps like an engineer tends to tinker his creation here and there to either help us or see if we can learn from change.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Last few weeks, well actually months, having to deal with the loss of not just one friend but two it began making me realize the frailty of human life. One of my friends was murdered, and the other died from a massive heart attack, I've began doing some of my own self-reflection. I'll admit I've questioned my own mind in the beliefs I've held teeter tottering between belief and agnosticism. Part of my reflection is the thought of working in the medical field where human frailty that leads to death can either be caused by the person, the environment, or just through the body giving up. I must admit after recently losing a friend of mine who made health changes due to his diabetes die from a massive heart attack I started thinking if I'm going to share the same fate and if so is it an accident, my destiny or by God's hand?

I have watched my own parents, decent human beings live only to suffer from cancer and die, while a regular drug addict who abuse their body and continue to abuse their body with no concern for getting help live and continue to live. I've asked the age old question to God "why them and not them?" Then the other part of me struggles with the scientific mindset that there are certain people born with certain genetic predispositions where their body is able to survive these kinds of abuse. Some of it is environmental. and some of it is just maintaining a healthy diet. Then I fall back into the understanding that maybe that is God's intent, then I fall into this line of thinking regarding myself and I ask "what is God's intent for me?"

Does anyone find themselves struggling with similar concerns?
My condolences.
Death is a hard concept for humanity to process. It forces us to have an existential crisis whenever we witness it. Or even ponder it.
My father fought hard, tooth and nail, against cancer. He made it a good 15 years with the diagnosis of just 6 months to live. A great man loved by all.
He had a previous dark side, but was still cherished all the same by those who loved him (even his old parole officer.)
My uncle was a generous man, beloved by all. But the too succumbed to death’s embrace. Though by his own choosing.
God’s plan?
Depends on how you define it, I suppose. Some think that suffering on earth leads to everlasting bliss. Others think it is comeuppance, a sort of penalty for a previous life and it’s transgressions.
Others still see it as just life being life.

It’s up to you to really evaluate what your traditions say and draw your own conclusions.
 

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Last few weeks, well actually months, having to deal with the loss of not just one friend but two it began making me realize the frailty of human life. One of my friends was murdered, and the other died from a massive heart attack, I've began doing some of my own self-reflection. I'll admit I've questioned my own mind in the beliefs I've held teeter tottering between belief and agnosticism. Part of my reflection is the thought of working in the medical field where human frailty that leads to death can either be caused by the person, the environment, or just through the body giving up. I must admit after recently losing a friend of mine who made health changes due to his diabetes die from a massive heart attack I started thinking if I'm going to share the same fate and if so is it an accident, my destiny or by God's hand?

I have watched my own parents, decent human beings live only to suffer from cancer and die, while a regular drug addict who abuse their body and continue to abuse their body with no concern for getting help live and continue to live. I've asked the age old question to God "why them and not them?" Then the other part of me struggles with the scientific mindset that there are certain people born with certain genetic predispositions where their body is able to survive these kinds of abuse. Some of it is environmental. and some of it is just maintaining a healthy diet. Then I fall back into the understanding that maybe that is God's intent, then I fall into this line of thinking regarding myself and I ask "what is God's intent for me?"

Does anyone find themselves struggling with similar concerns?

Every day. :(
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Does anyone find themselves struggling with similar concerns?
Good questions. I have had similar concerns.

I have serious health challenges. Many times I thought "what is the use, that I am alive?".
I was also feeling guilty, for not being able to do be productive.

God did cure my diabetes though. But that made me wonder "why not curing the other big troubles (so I can also work)?"
So finally I came up with the solution "maybe I have to learn the lesson, that life is not all about productivity"
And it's okay, that my health is not so good, this does not make me (and others like me) an inferior person.
Not curing my other problems I can understand ... remembering "God helps those that help themselves "

I was granted a vision telling me "If you find the right diet, you will be cured"
Obviously, it was about diet, but no specifics were given; at least a big hint to work on my diet
Later on, unable to find the right diet, I discovered other lessons as well, like "facing my suppressed emotions"
Now I see a new challenge to "just accept whatever comes my way; grateful it's still bearable"
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Last few weeks, well actually months, having to deal with the loss of not just one friend but two it began making me realize the frailty of human life. One of my friends was murdered, and the other died from a massive heart attack, I've began doing some of my own self-reflection. I'll admit I've questioned my own mind in the beliefs I've held teeter tottering between belief and agnosticism. Part of my reflection is the thought of working in the medical field where human frailty that leads to death can either be caused by the person, the environment, or just through the body giving up. I must admit after recently losing a friend of mine who made health changes due to his diabetes die from a massive heart attack I started thinking if I'm going to share the same fate and if so is it an accident, my destiny or by God's hand?

I have watched my own parents, decent human beings live only to suffer from cancer and die, while a regular drug addict who abuse their body and continue to abuse their body with no concern for getting help live and continue to live. I've asked the age old question to God "why them and not them?" Then the other part of me struggles with the scientific mindset that there are certain people born with certain genetic predispositions where their body is able to survive these kinds of abuse. Some of it is environmental. and some of it is just maintaining a healthy diet. Then I fall back into the understanding that maybe that is God's intent, then I fall into this line of thinking regarding myself and I ask "what is God's intent for me?"

Does anyone find themselves struggling with similar concerns?

Of course! This is a natural sort of concern, but I struggle with it far less and have overcome, because Bible reading addresses the very specific subjects you are struggling with!

Google "Why does God allow good people to die young?" to see the relevant Bible passages. I think you will be astonished with what you learn about the Holy Bible!
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
so what's the problem?

God by definition is an ET
He is not of this world
He is not human

reason is used to this effect

faith is the portion you are sure of
not your religious practice
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Last few weeks, well actually months, having to deal with the loss of not just one friend but two it began making me realize the frailty of human life. One of my friends was murdered, and the other died from a massive heart attack, I've began doing some of my own self-reflection. I'll admit I've questioned my own mind in the beliefs I've held teeter tottering between belief and agnosticism. Part of my reflection is the thought of working in the medical field where human frailty that leads to death can either be caused by the person, the environment, or just through the body giving up. I must admit after recently losing a friend of mine who made health changes due to his diabetes die from a massive heart attack I started thinking if I'm going to share the same fate and if so is it an accident, my destiny or by God's hand?

I have watched my own parents, decent human beings live only to suffer from cancer and die, while a regular drug addict who abuse their body and continue to abuse their body with no concern for getting help live and continue to live. I've asked the age old question to God "why them and not them?" Then the other part of me struggles with the scientific mindset that there are certain people born with certain genetic predispositions where their body is able to survive these kinds of abuse. Some of it is environmental. and some of it is just maintaining a healthy diet. Then I fall back into the understanding that maybe that is God's intent, then I fall into this line of thinking regarding myself and I ask "what is God's intent for me?"

Does anyone find themselves struggling with similar concerns?

This is a concise and elegant framing IMO of the character of reason and faith and it got me thinking about how I can express my own thoughts and sense of faith.

In the simplest terms i would say that one could consider the metaphor that "life is a high-stakes poker game". In poker, as in life, there are cards (truths) that we know and cards-truths that we dont know but are relevant to the "state of play". In life, as in poker, we want to enjoy "the game" and not get too caught up in it and take it too seriously. However, while we are living (playing) we have no other real concern and so we are more or less fully engaged in living-playing "the game". But this ambiguous sense of "the game " as both "just a game" and "the only game in town" puts us in a position of freedom as to our attitude toward life (poker) that is both what drives us toward wanting to live and take risks (place bets) and also what drives us toward wanting to rest or put an end to life (fold or leave the game).

For me my goal in my life is to maintain this sense of the ambiguity of life by appreciating life as a serious immersive game in which I develop a strategy and a patience for it with my utmost attention and intention AND by appreciating life as something which happens to me and of which I can only take it as it comes and not too seriously for it is not something which I can control.

The game overall is fair but it can take some nasty turns just as much as it can take some glorious ones. Sometimes we loose, sometimes others loose. But if we are all good sports then we find the game (life) is worth living in the end.
 

robocop (actually)

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Last few weeks, well actually months, having to deal with the loss of not just one friend but two it began making me realize the frailty of human life. One of my friends was murdered, and the other died from a massive heart attack, I've began doing some of my own self-reflection. I'll admit I've questioned my own mind in the beliefs I've held teeter tottering between belief and agnosticism. Part of my reflection is the thought of working in the medical field where human frailty that leads to death can either be caused by the person, the environment, or just through the body giving up. I must admit after recently losing a friend of mine who made health changes due to his diabetes die from a massive heart attack I started thinking if I'm going to share the same fate and if so is it an accident, my destiny or by God's hand?

I have watched my own parents, decent human beings live only to suffer from cancer and die, while a regular drug addict who abuse their body and continue to abuse their body with no concern for getting help live and continue to live. I've asked the age old question to God "why them and not them?" Then the other part of me struggles with the scientific mindset that there are certain people born with certain genetic predispositions where their body is able to survive these kinds of abuse. Some of it is environmental. and some of it is just maintaining a healthy diet. Then I fall back into the understanding that maybe that is God's intent, then I fall into this line of thinking regarding myself and I ask "what is God's intent for me?"

Does anyone find themselves struggling with similar concerns?
I think that is how God wants it... doing the right thing even in twisted situations.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
Last few weeks, well actually months, having to deal with the loss of not just one friend but two it began making me realize the frailty of human life. One of my friends was murdered, and the other died from a massive heart attack, I've began doing some of my own self-reflection. I'll admit I've questioned my own mind in the beliefs I've held teeter tottering between belief and agnosticism. Part of my reflection is the thought of working in the medical field where human frailty that leads to death can either be caused by the person, the environment, or just through the body giving up. I must admit after recently losing a friend of mine who made health changes due to his diabetes die from a massive heart attack I started thinking if I'm going to share the same fate and if so is it an accident, my destiny or by God's hand?

I have watched my own parents, decent human beings live only to suffer from cancer and die, while a regular drug addict who abuse their body and continue to abuse their body with no concern for getting help live and continue to live. I've asked the age old question to God "why them and not them?" Then the other part of me struggles with the scientific mindset that there are certain people born with certain genetic predispositions where their body is able to survive these kinds of abuse. Some of it is environmental. and some of it is just maintaining a healthy diet. Then I fall back into the understanding that maybe that is God's intent, then I fall into this line of thinking regarding myself and I ask "what is God's intent for me?"

Does anyone find themselves struggling with similar concerns?
I don't know if you are a fan of the scriptures or not. If not, you may as well stop reading now because what I'm about to say is based on the scriptures.

The world we live in is not the world God intended for us. His original intent can be ascertained in the name of the garden where he first placed Adam and Eve, the Garden of Eden. The Hebrew word Eden means "pleasure." God made it very easy for both animals and people to exist. Both were given all the plants necessary to live a healthy life. Yes, even lions and tigers were vegetarian (Gen 1:29-30). There is no indication of sickness or death.

God did not create Adam and Eve to be robots. He gave them free will. In addition he gave them dominion over the earth (Gen 1:28). That is significant in that it meant that God was not in charge. Man was in charge. What did man do with his dominion? The short answer is found in Chapter 3. Adam, by his free will, decided to believe the devil that he could become God by eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Of course that was the one and only thing God had warned them not to do. He was forthright in telling them what would happen if they did; they would die.

Not only was that the moment that death entered the scene, but it also caused the dominion that God gave Adam to be transferred to the devil. That is where we stand to this day. Contrary to most orthodox church teaching, God is not in charge of this present world. The devil is! He told Jesus that he had that power when he tempted him in the desert (Luk 4:6).

The bottom line is that God is not responsible for the bad things that happen on this world. He in fact instituted a plan right after Adam disobeyed. That plan was announced in Gen 3:15 when God promised a redeemer that would right the mess Adam made. Remember, man was originally in charge, not God. As a just God He could not simply nullify Adam's mistake with a wave of some magic wand. Since death came into the world by a man, it would have to be a man that conquered death. That plan was the man Christ Jesus. Because he followed God's will to the letter, death was not able to take hold of him.

We are told in the Epistles of Paul, that by confessing Jesus as Lord and believing that God raised him from the dead, we would be completely identified with Christ, his life, death, resurrection and ascension. But we don't see any of that in reality just yet.

When Jesus ascended he told the disciples he'd be back again. That part of the story is covered in Revelation. He will once and for all destroy the devil along with this present world and create a brand new heavens and earth which will be like the first one (Garden of Eden) with one exception; there will be no tree of the knowledge of good and evil for man to screw up again. The only tree mentioned is the other tree also mentioned in Genesis, the tree of life.

Well, that is an incredibly quick and dirty story of the whole Bible. While we are destined to live a life less than ideal (an understatement) now, we can have hope for a far far better life when Christ returns the second time. In short, we have hope for a better, indeed, an ideal future. Paul tells us to comfort one another with those words and that is why I am replying to your post. I'll pray you do find comfort in all I've said and either start or continue in the scriptures with a renewed hope that all will be idyllic in the future.

Take care...
 

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
Everyone dies since Adam. Not a particular way of dying is more "advantageous". It won't make a difference when dying in a battlefield than dying in a bed in hospital. It's not God's mission to alter that situation. God's mission here is to save souls, not bodies.
 

OUAD BAR

New Member
I consciously try to not ascribe perceived human qualities to something that is not human or not of this world, although the limits of my mind cannot allow me to experience nor truly understand so I guess what I try to do is make sense as humanly as possible. My ideas of God are changing, and with that being said I don't think the benevolence of God as we see in the actions in the world cannot be completely defined scripturally. I try and bring a more pragmatic understanding of benevolence. I try looking at the human body for examples and the "engineering" behind how it works. As you know the body everyday works to maintain its existence, fighting, creating antibodies to continue to survive. The multitude of species that exist on this planet is special and in my opinion nothing short of being engineered. It's amazing that we humans can have this dualistic mentality of both describing ourselves as bother the experiencing and the observer.
What breathes you tonight will stop.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
Faith is lying. Knowing bows to GOD. Know from being made to know. . Followers of Christ don't believe. They demand knowing. Understanding everything happens when you stand under. When What Does You fills all you are. No room for discussion, ideas and whatever else you manifest. Generator Operator Destroyer is. Add anything else and you fall from grace. So bow. It's all about bowing. However you raise yourself in the monkey cage, above you is either a roof or a door.

You seem very disturbed and I am sure English is not even your first language. Your syntax is unintelligable and you just completely do not make any sense.
 

OUAD BAR

New Member
Attack is your way? I who have experienced GOD on a daily basis say it with sounds made for monkeys who love grammar. Language ? Facing infinity what is your language ?
 

OUAD BAR

New Member
I may seem but behind every breath is what breathes. What does you. What is called the Word,. Every nanosecond it makes you and is available to you. It is compassion beyond belief. A gift.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
Attack is your way? I who have experienced GOD on a daily basis say it with sounds made for monkeys who love grammar. Language ? Facing infinity what is your language ?

You hoped something will prevent my breathing yesterday. Well, I'm still here. Apparently you're not familiar with how God operates
 
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