Spartan
Well-Known Member
If the JW's believe John 1 translates as "the Word was A god," then they're polytheists. They've even denied the Holy Spirit is God, when Acts chapter 5 testifies against them on that.
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Why do Jehovah's Witnesses falsify the Bible?
- Thread starter calm
- Start date
If the JW's believe John 1 translates as "the Word was A god," then they're polytheists. They've even denied the Holy Spirit is God, when Acts chapter 5 testifies against them on that.
Neutral Name
Active Member
The interesting thing, if you go back in the Bible, is that Jehovah was chosen as they God for Israel. There were considered, originally, to be many gods.
Samael_Khan
Goosebender
No not Polytheists. Just because someone is being called a god does not mean that they are considered actual Gods. For instance, if we say that Mick Jagger is a god of rock 'n roll, does not mean that we believe he is an actual god.
The Bible calls the judges of Israel "gods" and when Jesus was replying to his opposers he said in John 10:34: "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are "gods"'?
Referring to angels Psalm 8:5: For thou hast made him a little lower than the ELOHIM (translated angels), and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
They would see John 1:1 as referring to Jesus in that context. They are using god as a relative statement.
2:2 Corinthians 4:4 states that Satan is the god of this world. So Christians have to believe that Satan is a god, but obviously not in the same sense as YHWH. In this case too, god is a relative term, used to express how much control and power the individual has over the world.
I would say that their viewpoint is wrong, and that Jesus is actually God, not in the Trinitarian sense, but in the sense that Jesus is an Avatar of God. But your view that JW's would be polytheists is wrong.
As with any translation it is an ‘interpretation’. The same with the Quran. Any and all translations are really interpretations.
Christ said that ‘He’ the Spirit Of Truth would one day appear and explain the correct interpretation as prophesied in Revelation 5:5.
Muslims too await for the correct interpretation of some verses of the Quran.
So all of these ‘interpretations’ are not wholly accurate.
Baha’is believe the Spirit Of Truth has already appeared and the correct interpretation has been given by Baha’u’llah and so we are not divided on the matter of interpretation of the Holy Books as the Manifestation of God we believe possesses the true interpretation which comes from God not any scholar or fallible man however astute
Christ said that ‘He’ the Spirit Of Truth would one day appear and explain the correct interpretation as prophesied in Revelation 5:5.
Muslims too await for the correct interpretation of some verses of the Quran.
So all of these ‘interpretations’ are not wholly accurate.
Baha’is believe the Spirit Of Truth has already appeared and the correct interpretation has been given by Baha’u’llah and so we are not divided on the matter of interpretation of the Holy Books as the Manifestation of God we believe possesses the true interpretation which comes from God not any scholar or fallible man however astute
Spartan
Well-Known Member
That's what the JW's claim, but John chapter 1 is talking about a real God. When the JW's say Jesus was just "a" god, that's bogus, because the scripture says that "he was with God in the beginning." The beginning is when only God was in existence, and before men and angels were created.
Hi @Israel Khan ; While I do not believe that the Jehovahs Witnesses are polytheistic, I do have a specific question.
Why you would you translate the Hebrew word ELOHIM as "angels"?
Clear
φινετζω
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
So..... which one bible is the TRUE bible, please.??
Samael_Khan
Goosebender
What they believe is that Jesus is the first created being. Therefore not God himself. Everything was created by God through him. And the fact that the verse says he was WITH God, means that he was a separate entity from God according to JW belief. Also the aspect of who created existence, focuses on who it is created by, and who it is created through. It is created by God through Jesus. That is how they see it (which I don't believe is the correct view) but they do not consider themselves polytheists.
Samael_Khan
Goosebender
I wouldn't. Translators of the Bible do in some cases, while others do not, plus the specific verse is quoted in the New Testament and translated by the writer as angels in the Greek.
It would be interesting if the translation was: "Humans were made a little lower than God. Since they are made in his image, that would seem fitting.
Reference:
“Angels” or “God” in Psalm 8:5?
"4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour." (Psalm 8:4-5, KJV)
The KJV translates "אלהים (elohiym)" at Psalm 8:5 as "angels". The NASB and NRSV translate "אלהים (elohiym)" in Psalm 8:5 as "God". Although "אלהים (elohiym)" can be translated in several ways, and is translated "God" in most places, it is inexcusable to translate it as anything but "angels" at Psalm 8:5. The author of Hebrews at Hebrews 2:7 quoted this psalm, translating “אלהים (elohiym)” as “αγγελος (angelos)”, which means “angels.” Surely there is no excuse to depart from the meaning chosen by the inspired author of New Testament Scripture.
A Christian should read Psalms 8:5 as "angels" since the writer of Hebrews quoted it as saying such, since elohim can mean many things. Otherwise it would be an admission that the writer of Hebrews would be contradicting Psalms.
sooda
Veteran Member
Jehovah’s Witnesses are told that those who seek higher education become arrogant and haughty, and think they know more than God. In addition to that, earning an advanced degree requires a lot of time and effort, and Jehovah’s Witnesses are taught that their time is best spent studying the Bible, attending their religious meetings, and proselytizing.
Why are Jehovah's Witnesses poor compared to other ...
www.quora.com/Why-are-Jehovahs-Witnesses-poor-compared-to-other-religious-groups
sooda
Veteran Member
- Jehovah’s Witnesses & Education—Primary School, Higher ...
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/jw-education-school
(1 Timothy 6: 10) Jehovah’s Witnesses make every effort to avoid being ensnared by “the deceptive power of riches.” —Matthew 13:22. Misconception: A person should seek the prestige or status that can result from higher education
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https://www.npr.org/2017/02/19/510585965/poor-education-leads-to-lost-dreams-and-low...
Feb 19, 2017 · From the top down. Witness leadership also discourages higher education because they believe it's a waste of time. Jehovah's Witnesses have been predicting the end of the world since the religion's founding at the end of the 19 th century. By their rationale, time in college would be better spent out on the streets,...
Samael_Khan
Goosebender
I can confirm this, having been one.
Hi @calm ;
ALL OF US PROJECT BIAS AND ERROR INTO THE TEXT WE READ AND INTERPRET
@Audie makes a point that “Evrrybody "falsifies" the bible.” (Audie in post #7). I believe she is trying to say that all of us have errors which we introduce into our reading of and interpretation of and thus in our interpretation of the biblical text. If we create a bible, then it necessarily will be skewed by our personal bias. Perhaps this is what @shunyadragon is also pointing out in post #9 by saying “From this perspective the Bible has been edited, redacted, and added to, and interpreted in many ways to justify an agenda. The JW is just one more in a long history”
I do NOT like the Jehovahs Witness “translation” (it is more of a paraphrase in many cases) and while the Jehovah Witnesses have made made more mistakes in translations, I am not sure theirs are more egregious than that of other bibles. For example, Nimos Gives example (perhaps unknowingly) NIV mistranslation of John 1:18 in post #10 by offering the NIV version of John 1:18. The NIV version reads 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
The actual Greek says no such thing. I think Doug Moo and his group who created their bible allowed themselves to be deeply swayed by their own religious bias in creating this specific verse.
I USE the NIV frequently and LIKE the NIV (generally), but such errors are embarrassing. I will STILL use the NIV for specific comparisons and reference, but I will be aware of mistakes in it.
While I am definitely not Jehovahs witness and do not like much of the theological innovations and interpretations they have introduced nor do I like the contamination of sacred text, I cannot fault their translation of John 1:18, while the NIV is shamelessly biased in this case. That is, in this specific verse, the NWT is to be preferred over the NIV or KJV in terms of correctness.
My point is not to say that the J.W. NWTranslation is better than the NIV. I certainly do NOT think this. BUT, I think that @Audie and @shunyadragon are correct that bibles which are created by mankind who are trying to translate, will introduce bias and error into the text they are creating. It’s simply in the nature of mankind to make such errors.
I think the errors introduced into the Jehovahs Witness Bible by its’ main creator Frederick Franz were motivated by a desire to support his theological worldviews, though, to give him some credit, I think he also saw some errors in the prior biblical text he had been using.
I hope your spiritual journey is good and insightful.
Clear
φυτωνεω
ALL OF US PROJECT BIAS AND ERROR INTO THE TEXT WE READ AND INTERPRET
@Audie makes a point that “Evrrybody "falsifies" the bible.” (Audie in post #7). I believe she is trying to say that all of us have errors which we introduce into our reading of and interpretation of and thus in our interpretation of the biblical text. If we create a bible, then it necessarily will be skewed by our personal bias. Perhaps this is what @shunyadragon is also pointing out in post #9 by saying “From this perspective the Bible has been edited, redacted, and added to, and interpreted in many ways to justify an agenda. The JW is just one more in a long history”
I do NOT like the Jehovahs Witness “translation” (it is more of a paraphrase in many cases) and while the Jehovah Witnesses have made made more mistakes in translations, I am not sure theirs are more egregious than that of other bibles. For example, Nimos Gives example (perhaps unknowingly) NIV mistranslation of John 1:18 in post #10 by offering the NIV version of John 1:18. The NIV version reads 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
The actual Greek says no such thing. I think Doug Moo and his group who created their bible allowed themselves to be deeply swayed by their own religious bias in creating this specific verse.
I USE the NIV frequently and LIKE the NIV (generally), but such errors are embarrassing. I will STILL use the NIV for specific comparisons and reference, but I will be aware of mistakes in it.
While I am definitely not Jehovahs witness and do not like much of the theological innovations and interpretations they have introduced nor do I like the contamination of sacred text, I cannot fault their translation of John 1:18, while the NIV is shamelessly biased in this case. That is, in this specific verse, the NWT is to be preferred over the NIV or KJV in terms of correctness.
My point is not to say that the J.W. NWTranslation is better than the NIV. I certainly do NOT think this. BUT, I think that @Audie and @shunyadragon are correct that bibles which are created by mankind who are trying to translate, will introduce bias and error into the text they are creating. It’s simply in the nature of mankind to make such errors.
I think the errors introduced into the Jehovahs Witness Bible by its’ main creator Frederick Franz were motivated by a desire to support his theological worldviews, though, to give him some credit, I think he also saw some errors in the prior biblical text he had been using.
I hope your spiritual journey is good and insightful.
Clear
φυτωνεω
sooda
Veteran Member
sooda
Veteran Member
Jehovah's Witnesses & Higher Education - University - JWfacts
www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/higher-education-university.php
Watchtower classifies higher education as a temptation akin to smoking, using drugs, and watching violent and immoral movies. For instance, see the insert from the Watchtower 2008 Sep 1, entitled “What Will be The “End Afterward”? The Kingdom Ministry warns: Watchtower explains pursuing an advanced education is dangerous because it: 1. Wastes precious time in these last days 2. Promotes prestige and materialism 3. Shows a lack of faith 4. Involves bad association 5. Promotes higher learning T...
www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/higher-education-university.php
Watchtower classifies higher education as a temptation akin to smoking, using drugs, and watching violent and immoral movies. For instance, see the insert from the Watchtower 2008 Sep 1, entitled “What Will be The “End Afterward”? The Kingdom Ministry warns: Watchtower explains pursuing an advanced education is dangerous because it: 1. Wastes precious time in these last days 2. Promotes prestige and materialism 3. Shows a lack of faith 4. Involves bad association 5. Promotes higher learning T...
Samael_Khan
Goosebender
I wasn't raised one. I became one so thankfully I wasn't under their influence.
I think you mean they didn't have a tertiary education. They certainly do encourage children to go to school and get a basic education.
But in my side of the world many Witnesses send their children to Universities and such. Unfortunately at last convention, a branch visitor from Bethel was explicit that parents should NOT send their children to higher education. Many people didn't take him seriously, thinking he was being unrealistic. A child I know became upset. The organisation actually addressed the problem with a branch visit from Anthony Morris, the broadcast of which was seen in all congregations, and he said that South Africa congregations had a problem which was that too many children were sending their children to higher education. He pretty much implied that they weren't raising their children properly and were irresponsible parents.
I have met many Witnesses with a nice home environment and a good tertiary education, having been one. It isn't uncommon. But then again what is true here amongst JW culture is probably not the same as where you reside.
Hi Israel Khan:
Perhaps I was not clear enough. My point was that the Hebrew WORD elohim, does not mean "angel". I admit several other words such as "angel" has replace "elohim" in certain bibles, but, the word does not mean "angels". IF YOU translate "elohim" as angels, what would be your motivation to do so?
Clear
Perhaps I was not clear enough. My point was that the Hebrew WORD elohim, does not mean "angel". I admit several other words such as "angel" has replace "elohim" in certain bibles, but, the word does not mean "angels". IF YOU translate "elohim" as angels, what would be your motivation to do so?
Clear
sooda
Veteran Member
My experience of JWs is in the American South. They are generally very poor, have too many children and very little education. I have also found them to be mean -spirited with a chip on their shoulder.
Samael_Khan
Goosebender
Not "Clear" enough! Haha! Namesake issues.
I can't read Hebrew so I wouldn't translate it. Ha!
The only reason why I say it is angels is because the book of Hebrews translates the passage as such. The Greek Septuagint also translates Psalms 8:5 as angels.
Samael_Khan
Goosebender
Is that Bible Belt area?