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Was Abraham a Jew ?

sooda

sooda

Veteran Member
dybmh said:
Relevance?
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The Horites were the original inhabitants of the land of Edom.

These were the sons of Seir the Horite, who were living in the region before it became known as Edom. We don’t know a lot about their history, but we do know the word Horite means cave dwellers. They lived in the caves found in the mountain range of Mount Seir.

See Seir, Edom, Petra.
 
dybmh

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
sooda said:
The Horites were the original inhabitants of the land of Edom.

These were the sons of Seir the Horite, who were living in the region before it became known as Edom. We don’t know a lot about their history, but we do know the word Horite means cave dwellers. They lived in the caves found in the mountain range of Mount Seir.

See Seir, Edom, Petra.
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How is any of this relevant to: "Was Abraham a Jew"?
 
L

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
dybmh said:
How is any of this relevant to: "Was Abraham a Jew"?
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Abraham wouldn't have been considered a Jew because The Jews were named from the tribe of Judah which came after Abraham. It was only the tribe of Judah and little Benjamin that had returned to the land during the days of Christ.
 
sooda

sooda

Veteran Member
dybmh said:
So I ask again: How is Abraham's mother relevant to any of this?

You said yourself: "There were no Jews until Judah"
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Deuteronomy 26:5. A Syrian was my father — That is, Jacob; for though born in Canaan, he was a Syrian by descent, his mother Rebecca, and his grandfather Abraham, being both of Chaldea or Mesopotamia, which in Scripture is comprehended under the name of Syria.

His wives and children, by their mothers’ side, and his relations, were Syrians, and he himself had lived twenty years in Syria with Laban. Ready to perish — Through want and poverty, or through the rage of his brother Esau, and the treachery of his father-in-law Laban: see Genesis 28:11; Genesis 28:20; Genesis 32:10.

Or perhaps this refers to the state of Jacob a little before he went down into Egypt, when he and his family were in danger of perishing by famine, had he not been sustained by his son.

continued

Deuteronomy 26:5 Commentaries: "You shall answer and say before the LORD your God, 'My father was a wandering Aramean, and he went down to Egypt and sojourned there, few in number; but there he became a great, mighty and populous nation.
 
dybmh

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
LightofTruth said:
Abraham wouldn't have been considered a Jew because The Jews were named from the tribe of Judah which came after Abraham. It was only the tribe of Judah and little Benjamin that had returned to the land during the days of Christ.
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Agreed.
 
Shaul

Shaul

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Abraham was the first Hebrew. In Genesis (Beresheit) G-d told Abraham to leave his father’s house (renouncing polytheism) and to go where He would send him. It continues and refers to Abraham as “crossed over”, in Hebrew “Ivri”. This has multiple significances. Abraham “crossed over” the river, leaving his former live and identity behind. Thus any previous association he had with others is irrelevant. It also alludes to him “crossing over” to be the first believe in the true religion. Ivri is the Hebrew language word for Hebrew. Thus Abraham was the first Hebrew. While Abraham had two sons Ishmael and Isaac(Yitzhak), the Torah is clear that only Isaac and his descendants were Hebrews and heirs to the promises G-d gave the Abraham, not Ishmael and his descendants.

Now regarding the whether Abraham was a Jew, the answer actually depends on the context. That is be cause the word Jew has more than one definition, that is it is an overloaded term. The most common definition of the word is a member of the tribe of Judah. By the definition Abraham is not a Jew. There is a second definition for the word Jew. This definition is that anyone Hebrew associated with the “Southern” kingdom of Judah, even if not from the actual tribe of Judah. This would include, for example members of the tribe of Levi that lived there. There were members from several of the other tribes, besides Judah, that lived in the Kingdom of Judah. All of them would be called “Jews”. This definition is most applicable after the destruction of the Northern Kingdom(the Kingdom of Israel). Again, by this definition Abraham would not be a Jew. However there is another definition of the word Jew. That definition is a person that follows the religion of Judaism. A person could be a follower of Judaism and not be a member of the tribe of Judah or even any other tribe of the descendants of Jacob(Israel). For example, a convert to Judaism is still called a Jew, even if that person was not a descendant of Jewish parents. That is important. The Jewish Scriptures and sages tell us the the religion of Abraham was Judaism. He followed it even before it was outwardly given to others at Sinai. Indeed a convert to Judaism, when given his or her new Jewish name is called son or daughter of Abraham. By this definition of the word Jew, the definition of a follower of Judaism, Abraham is a Jew.
 
Shaul

Shaul

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
sooda said:
Gen 17: 20

20As for Ishmael, I have heard you, and I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and multiply him greatly. He will become the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation.
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So what is your point? The Torah says that Ishmael will be blessed. It is also quite clear that Isaac alone will inherit the covenant G-d gave made with Abraham. And why did you stop quoting at verse 20? The very next verse 21 says, “But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year.”
 
L

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
Shaul said:
Abraham was the first Hebrew. In Genesis (Beresheit) G-d told Abraham to leave his father’s house (renouncing polytheism) and to go where He would send him. It continues and refers to Abraham as “crossed over”, in Hebrew “Ivri”. This has multiple significances. Abraham “crossed over” the river, leaving his former live and identity behind. Thus any previous association he had with others is irrelevant. It also alludes to him “crossing over” to be the first believe in the true religion. Ivri is the Hebrew language word for Hebrew. Thus Abraham was the first Hebrew. While Abraham had two sons Ishmael and Isaac(Yitzhak), the Torah is clear that only Isaac and his descendants were Hebrews and heirs to the promises G-d gave the Abraham, not Ishmael and his descendants.

Now regarding the whether Abraham was a Jew, the answer actually depends on the context. That is be cause the word Jew has more than one definition, that is it is an overloaded term. The most common definition of the word is a member of the tribe of Judah. By the definition Abraham is not a Jew. There is a second definition for the word Jew. This definition is that anyone Hebrew associated with the “Southern” kingdom of Judah, even if not from the actual tribe of Judah. This would include, for example members of the tribe of Levi that lived there. There were members from several of the other tribes, besides Judah, that lived in the Kingdom of Judah. All of them would be called “Jews”. This definition is most applicable after the destruction of the Northern Kingdom(the Kingdom of Israel). Again, by this definition Abraham would not be a Jew. However there is another definition of the word Jew. That definition is a person that follows the religion of Judaism. A person could be a follower of Judaism and not be a member of the tribe of Judah or even any other tribe of the descendants of Jacob(Israel). For example, a convert to Judaism is still called a Jew, even if that person was not a descendant of Jewish parents. That is important. The Jewish Scriptures and sages tell us the the religion of Abraham was Judaism. He followed it even before it was outwardly given to others at Sinai. Indeed a convert to Judaism, when given his or her new Jewish name is called son or daughter of Abraham. By this definition of the word Jew, the definition of a follower of Judaism, Abraham is a Jew.
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In Christianity Abraham is the father of those who have faith as he did in God's promises. God's righteousness was imputed to Abraham by faith and not by works of the law or by Judaism. Just as it is to all the children of promise.
 
L

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
Shaul said:
So what is your point? The Torah says that Ishmael will be blessed. It is also quite clear that Isaac alone will inherit the covenant G-d gave made with Abraham. And why did you stop quoting at verse 20? The very next verse 21 says, “But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year.”
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Abraham walked the land he and his sons are to inherit. But Abraham never received that promise and died. He must therefore be resurrected from the dead in order to possess the land promised him by God. The same is true to all the heirs of promise.
 
sooda

sooda

Veteran Member
Shaul said:
So what is your point? The Torah says that Ishmael will be blessed. It is also quite clear that Isaac alone will inherit the covenant G-d gave made with Abraham. And why did you stop quoting at verse 20? The very next verse 21 says, “But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year.”
Click to expand...

Quite true, but he remembers and blesses Ishmael as well.
 
F

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Neuropteron said:
Jews or Judeans were descendants of Abraham's great-grandson Judah.
So, the short answer is no, he couldn't have been !

Literally the term Jew means : Of Judah. A person belonging to the tribe of Judah.
The name is not used in the Bible account prior to the fall of the ten-tribe kingdom of Israel where the southern kingdom was called Judah, and the people were called sons of Judah or the tribe of the sons of Judah.

The term Jew first appears in the Hebrew Bible in Jeremiah’s day, at Jeremiah 34:9, and also in Esther concerning Mordecai the Jew, and in the postcaptivity prophecy of Zechariah 8:23.
Later all Israelites who held to the tribe of Judah because of their exclusive worship to Jehovah were also called Jews or Judeans, and the name is so used in the Christian Greek Scriptures.

This elicits another question: Who is a jew today ?
It seems it depend on who you ask.

After the exile (from Babylon) the name was applied to any Israelites returning to Israel (Ezr 4:12; 6:7; Ne 1:2; 5:17) and, finally, to all Hebrews throughout the world, to distinguish them from the Gentile nations. (Es 3:6; 9:20)

Gentiles who accepted the Jewish faith and became circumcised proselytes declared themselves Jews as well.
The Israeli Supreme Court (1970). held,that anyone was a Jew who claimed to be a Jew, even though he was an atheist and not born of a Jewish mother.
However, Orthodox Jewry maintains that Jewish religion and nationality are inseparable.
Tthe Knesset, (Israeli parliament), declared that the definition of Jewishness in the Halakah, be henceforth declared the only legal one. (The Halakah defines a Jew as one born of a Jewish mother or a convert to Judaism). This was made law on March 10, 1970.

Interestingly, The apostle Paul, in arguing that the Jews were mistaken in their pride of fleshly descent and in relying on the works of the Law to find favor with God, said: “For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.” (Ro 2:28,29)
This argument parallels his reasoning in Romans chapter 4, that the true seed of Abraham are those with the faith of Abraham not fleshly lineage.

Does it matter ?
Maybe Christ's words puts some perspective on it :“ there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, foreigner, Scyth′ian, slave, freeman, but Christ is all things in all”.(Col 3”10)
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My question for you is.
What does being a Hebrew mean to you.
Isn't a Hebrew a Jew of Israel?
 
Neuropteron

Neuropteron

Active Member
Faithofchristian said:
My question for you is.
What does being a Hebrew mean to you.
Isn't a Hebrew a Jew of Israel?
Click to expand...
Faithofchristian said:
My question for you is.
What does being a Hebrew mean to you.
Isn't a Hebrew a Jew of Israel?
Click to expand...

Greetings,

The designation "Hebrew" is first used for Abram, distinguishing him from his Amorite neighbors.

The views as to the origin and significance of the term is not easily resolved since according to my count there are at least 4 different scholarly position regarding it's meaning.

For instance, the name "Hebrew" denotes those who are sojourners, that is, 'passing through', as distinguisehed from those who are residents or settlers.
However while's the Hebrew's did lead a nomadic life for a time, this was not the case after the conquest of Canaan. Nonetheless that name continued to apply to them.

Another view is that according to Biblical evidence the term comes from the name Eber the great grandsom from Shem and an ancestor of Abraham (Abram).
This is only 2 example, suffice it to say that as far as I know no conclusive or incontested explanation is forthcoming.

In the Christian Greek Scriptures (NT) the term Hebrew is used particularly in designating the language spoken by the Jews and that the Hebrew speaking Jews are distinguished from Greek speaking ones.

To answer your question:
The common view is that Hebrews, Israelites and Jews are the same.
Technically there not, Hebrew's are member or descendant of a Semitic people claiming descent from Shem, Eber(contested), Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob;

Israelites were members of the 12 tribes of Israel.

Jews were members of the tribe of Judah.

I could be considered poetic license to declare Abraham an Israelite or a Jew since they originated from his loins, this does not, however, make it true.

Today all those lines are blurred since proof of lineage is not possible. I'm perfectly happy to go with the opinion of the majority, as the Apostle Paul said, it doesn't really matter, it's the spiritual condition that counts.
 
L

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
Neuropteron said:
Greetings,

The designation "Hebrew" is first used for Abram, distinguishing him from his Amorite neighbors.

The views as to the origin and significance of the term is not easily resolved since according to my count there are at least 4 different scholarly position regarding it's meaning.

For instance, the name "Hebrew" denotes those who are sojourners, that is, 'passing through', as distinguisehed from those who are residents or settlers.
However while's the Hebrew's did lead a nomadic life for a time, this was not the case after the conquest of Canaan. Nonetheless that name continued to apply to them.

Another view is that according to Biblical evidence the term comes from the name Eber the great grandsom from Shem and an ancestor of Abraham (Abram).
This is only 2 example, suffice it to say that as far as I know no conclusive or incontested explanation is forthcoming.

In the Christian Greek Scriptures (NT) the term Hebrew is used particularly in designating the language spoken by the Jews and that the Hebrew speaking Jews are distinguished from Greek speaking ones.

To answer your question:
The common view is that Hebrews, Israelites and Jews are the same.
Technically there not, Hebrew's are member or descendant of a Semitic people claiming descent from Shem, Eber(contested), Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob;

Israelites were members of the 12 tribes of Israel.

Jews were members of the tribe of Judah.

I could be considered poetic license to declare Abraham an Israelite or a Jew since they originated from his loins, this does not, however, make it true.

Today all those lines are blurred since proof of lineage is not possible. I'm perfectly happy to go with the opinion of the majority, as the Apostle Paul said, it doesn't really matter, it's the spiritual condition that counts.
Click to expand...
Shem, Eber, Abraham and Israel are all ancestors of Christ. Shem is the father of all the children of Eber. It stands to reason that the way of the LORD was to be preserved by the children of Eber. They became known as Hebrews. And the one true God is the God of the Hebrews.
 
sooda

sooda

Veteran Member
LightofTruth said:
Shem, Eber, Abraham and Israel are all ancestors of Christ. Shem is the father of all the children of Eber. It stands to reason that the way of the LORD was to be preserved by the children of Eber.
Click to expand...
They were originally canaanite.
 
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