What is the Trinity?

MJFlores said:

The first century Christians never believed in the Trinity.
What they believed was there was one God and that one God isn't the Son and isn't the HS.

The apostles of Jesus Christ believed in the Old Testament writings of the prophets for example the prophet Malachi

Malachi 2:10 New International Version (NIV)
Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another?

Even the Lord Jesus Christ believed in the one true God and even preached about Him

John 17:1-3 New King James Version (NKJV)
Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

What is written is written. It is up for the person to believe and live.

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There is one thing you are completely ignoring, and it does not help to use one verse, and then to even use only half the verse to stress your point.
Whats with the big pictures?
Do you think it will change any facts?

This is what you forgot to mention or simply ignored.
Why was Jesus crucified?
Because He claimed to be God!

The Jews and priests killed him because He said He was god!
Mar 2:6 (Luke 5: 20- 21) But some of the scribes were sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
Mar 2:7 Why does this one speak such blasphemies? Who can forgive sins except God only?
Mar 2:10 But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority upon earth to forgive sins,



Joh 5:16 And therefore the Jews persecuted Jesus and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the sabbath day.
Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father works until now, and I work.
Joh 5:18 Then, because of this, the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because He not only had broken the sabbath, but also said that God was His father, making Himself equal with God.
Joh 5:22 For the Father judges no man, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
Joh 5:23 so that all should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
Joh 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, He who hears My Word and believes on Him who sent Me has everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but has passed from death to life.


Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one!
Joh 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered Him, saying, We do not stone you for a good work, but for blasphemy, and because you, being a man, make yourself God.
Joh 10:38 But if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works so that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.



Mat 26:63 But Jesus was silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, I adjure you by the living God that you tell us whether you are the Christ, the Son of God.
Mat 26:64 (Mark 14: 62) Jesus said to him, You said it. I tell you more. From this time you shall see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of the heavens.
Mat 26:65 Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, now you have heard his blasphemy.


(Luk 22:66 Mark 14: 61- 64) And when day came, the body of elders of the people, and the chief priests and the scribes, came together. And they led Him to the sanhedrin, saying,
Luk 22:67 Are you the Christ? Tell us. And He said to them, If I tell you, you will not believe.
Luk 22:68 Also if I ask you, you will not answer Me nor let Me go.
Luk 22:69 From now on the Son of Man shall sit at the right hand of the power of God.
Luk 22:70 And they all said, Are you then the Son of God? And He said to them, You say it, because I AM!
Luk 22:71 And they said, What need do we have for any witness? For we ourselves have heard it from his own mouth.


Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would fight so that I might not be delivered to the Jews. But now My kingdom is not from here.
Joh 18:37 Pilate then said to Him, Are you a king then? Jesus answered, You say it that I am a king. To this end I was born, and for this cause I came into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.
Joh 19:6 Then when the chief priests and under-officers saw Him, they cried out, saying, Crucify! Crucify Him! Pilate said to them, You take Him and crucify Him, for I find no fault in him.
Joh 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a Law, and by our Law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
Joh 19:8 Then when Pilate heard that saying, he was the more afraid.

MJ Flores, Do you think it is appropriately to give only half of the verses you quoted?
I will never be so arrogant as to give you only half the truth.
Look at what you hid to us from John 17!!!!
Joh 17:5 And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the world was..

Oh and when I searched the Gospels to see who Jesus claimed to be, I learned about His divinity, and how He and the Father is ONE!
My Father and I.
Luk 2:49 And He said to them, Why did you look for Me? Do you not know that I must be about My Father's business?

Mat 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord! Lord! shall enter the kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in Heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord! Lord! Did we not prophesy in Your name, and through Your name throw out demons, and through Your name do many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then I will say to them I never knew you! Depart from Me, those working lawlessness!

Mat 10:32 (Luke 12: 8- 9) Then everyone who shall confess Me before men, I will confess him before My Father who is in Heaven.
Mat 10:33 But whoever shall deny Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in Heaven.

Mat 11:27 All things are delivered to Me by My Father. And no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son will reveal Him.

Mat 16:27 For the Son of Man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He shall reward each one according to his works.

Mat 25:31 But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He shall sit on the throne of His glory.
Mat 25:32 And all nations shall be gathered before Him. And He shall separate them from one another, as a shepherd divides the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:34 Then the King shall say to those on His right hand, Come, blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

Mar 8:38 (Luke 9: 26) Therefore whoever shall be ashamed of Me and of My Words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man shall also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.

Luk 10:22 All things are delivered to Me by My Father; and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son will reveal Him.

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes on Him should have everlasting life. And I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, "And they shall all be taught of God." Therefore everyone who hears and learns from the Father comes to Me.
Joh 6:46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God, He has seen the Father.
Joh 6:47 Truly, truly, I say to you, He who believes on Me has everlasting life..

Joh 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered Him, Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the Words of eternal life..

Joh 10:17 Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I might take it again.
Joh 10:18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down from Myself. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it again. I have received this commandment from My Father.

Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give miraculous signs and wonders in order to seduce, if possible, even the elect.
Mar 13:23 But take heed; behold, I have told you all things beforehand.
Mar 13:26 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 And then He shall send His angels and shall gather His elect from the four winds, from the end of the earth to the end of heaven.

Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but by Me.

Joh 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in Me? The Words that I speak to you I do not speak of Myself, but the Father who dwells in Me, He does the works.
Joh 14:11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the very works themselves.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.

Joh 15:23 He who hates Me hates My Father also.

Joh 15:26 And when the Comforter has come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He shall testify of Me.
Joh 16:27 for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came out from God.
Joh 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and have come into the world. Again I leave the world and go to the Father..

Joh 17:1 Jesus spoke these words and lifted up His eyes to Heaven and said, Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son so that Your Son also may glorify You,
Joh 17:2 even as You have given Him authority over all flesh so that He should give eternal life to all You have given Him.
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Joh 17:4 I have glorified You upon the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.
Joh 17:5 And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the world was..

Joh 17:11 And now I am in the world no longer, but these are in the world, and I come to You, Holy Father. Keep them in Your name, those whom You have given Me, so that they may be one as We are..

Joh 17:24 Father, I desire that those whom You have given Me, that they may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me, for You have loved Me before the foundation of the world.
Joh 17:25 O righteous Father, indeed the world has not known You; but I have known You, and these have known that You have sent me.
Joh 17:26 And I made known to them Your name, and will make it known, so that the love with which You have loved Me may be in them, and I in them.

Mmmm so jesus was crucified because he claimed to be God, now He says He and the Father is one since before the world began!

Oh Glory to God!
Here I found Jesus claimed that He is God!
I Am God!
Mat 9:6 But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins

Mat 12:8 (Mar 2: 28, Luke 6: 5) For the Son of Man is Lord even of the sabbath.

Joh 3:13 And no one has ascended up to Heaven except He who came down from Heaven, the Son of Man who is in Heaven.

Mat 18:19 Again I say to you that if two of you shall agree on earth as regarding anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them by My Father in Heaven.
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, there I am in their midst.

Mat 19:29 And everyone who left houses, or brothers, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for My name's sake, … shall inherit everlasting life.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, All authority is given to Me in Heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Therefore go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all things, whatever I commanded you…

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him.
Joh 3:18 He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.

Joh 8:57 Then the Jews said to Him, You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I AM!

Joh 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and finding him, He said to him, Do you believe on the Son of God?
Joh 9:36 And he answered and said, Who is He, Lord, that I might believe on Him?
Joh 9:37 And Jesus said to him, You have both seen Him, and it is He who is speaking with you.
Joh 9:38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshiped Him.

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Exo 3:13 And Moses said to God, Behold, when I come to the sons of Israel, and shall say to them, The God of your fathers has sent me to you, and they shall say to me, What is His name? What shall I say to them?
Exo 3:14 And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM. And He said, So you shall say to the sons of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.

Exo 3:15 And God said to Moses again, You shall say this to the sons of Israel, Jehovah the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My title from generation to generation.

OOfff!!!
Even God the Father said Jesus was God!
God the Father and His angels say Jesus is God!
Luk 1:31 And behold! You shall conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call His name JESUS.
Luk 1:32 He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Highest. And the Lord God shall give Him the throne of His father David.
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said to her, The Holy Spirit shall come on you, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow you. Therefore also that Holy One which will be born of you shall be called Son of God.


Mat 3:16 (Mark 1: 9- 11, Luke 3: 22) And Jesus, when He had been baptized, went up immediately out of the water. And lo, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting upon Him.
Mat 3:17 And lo, a voice from Heaven, saying, This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Mat 17:5 (Luke 9: 34- 35, Mar 9:7 ) While he yet spoke, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them. And behold a voice out of the cloud which said, This is My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased, hear Him.

Ouch, even the Devils knew Jesus was God.
Mat 8:29 (Mark 5: 7’ Luke 8: 28) And behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with You, Jesus, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time? (Two possessed with devils at Gergesenes)
Mar 1:24 (Luke 4: 33, 34, Mark 3: 11) saying, What is to us and to You, Jesus of Nazareth? Have You come to destroy us? I know You, who You are, the Holy One of God. (man with unclean spirit in a synagogue)
Luk 4:41 And also demons came out of many, crying out and saying, You are the Christ, the Son of God! And rebuking them, He did not allow them to speak; for they knew Him to be the Christ.

Even the Scripture says he is God!
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
Joh 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and of truth.
Joh 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the Only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

Mat 1:23 "Behold, the virgin shall conceive in her womb, and will bear a son. And they will call His name Emmanuel," which being interpreted is, God with us.

Mat 3:3 For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying, "The voice of one crying in the wilderness: Prepare the way of the Lord, make His paths straight."

Mat 22:43 He said to them, How then does David by the Spirit call him Lord, saying,
Mat 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Joh 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

Look there is so many references to jesus being God, I find it ridicilous that anyone reading the NT will even think that Jesus never claimed to be God Himself.
Even the Agnostic, Bart Ehrman when he studied the manuscripts are very clear about this fact: "Jesus did claim to be God"

I think I supplied enough verses to support the claim that Jesus was God in the NT.
Eventually this evidence was used at the council of Nicea to proclaim the divine nature of Jesus.
All, except 3 bishops, accepted this claim, even when from the start there were at least 60 or so who did not agree, but once Eusebius showed these facts to them, they had to agree to the divinity of Jesus.

SA Huguenot said:

There is one thing you are completely ignoring, and it does not help to use one verse, and then to even use only half the verse to stress your point.
Whats with the big pictures?
Do you think it will change any facts?

This is what you forgot to mention or simply ignored.
Why was Jesus crucified?
Because He claimed to be God!

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Did Jesus Christ really said "I AM GOD!"

Or you believed the Jews' accusation that "He claimed to be God."

If Jesus Christ did not say "HEYYA FOLKS, LISTEN CAREFULLY - I AM G.O.D. - GOD!" "I AM THE FATHER, THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT - LIKE A THREE IN ONE COFFEE" "YOU GOTTA BELIEVE IT, YOU ARE SEEING ONE BUT IN FACT I AM THREE. I FATHERED MYSELF AND I AM PRAYING TO MYSELF."

If you can read a similar verse like that then Jesus is God BUT I could not read Jesus Christ really claimed:

SA Huguenot said:

The Jews and priests killed him because He said He was god!
Mar 2:6 (Luke 5: 20- 21) But some of the scribes were sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
Mar 2:7 Why does this one speak such blasphemies? Who can forgive sins except God only?
Mar 2:10 But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority upon earth to forgive sins,

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And the Jews heard that Jesus can forgive sins and said to themselves

"Yo hear what he just said? He said he can forgive sins! Only God can forgive sins! and even the Catholic priest can forgive sins (as they claimed to be)."

And you believed the Jews, who killed Jesus. That is sad.

What did Jesus said about this [which you did not show - apparently]

Matthew 9:6 New International Version (NIV)
But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “Get up, take your mat and go home.”

What are the points did Jesus make?
1] He is the Son of Man
2] He has the authority to forgive sins

What does it he mean by being the Son of Man?

Numbers 23:19 New King James Version (NKJV)
“God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent.
Has He said, and will He not do?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

Jesus is a man and he declared this to the Jews:

John 8:39-40 New King James Version (NKJV)
They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this.

Jesus said he is the Son of Man
God is not a Son of Man
Jesus said he is a Man
God is not a man
Jesus said he is a Man who told you the truth which he heard from not himself
But from God

Therefore Jesus is not God
God is not Jesus
Jesus is the Son
God is the Father
Jesus is not the Father
Jesus is not God

Who made Jesus God?
It was in 325 AD in Niceae in a council headed by Constantine the Great - the pagan Emperor of the Roman Empire.
An Invented Doctrine, voted upon by 300 long dead Bishops.


Is your salvation based on the false teachings of dead men or from the Bible?

Why dont you first answer my claim that you deliberately hid the truth in this verse?
Joh 17:1 Jesus spoke these words and lifted up His eyes to Heaven and said, Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son so that Your Son also may glorify You,
Joh 17:2 even as You have given Him authority over all flesh so that He should give eternal life to all You have given Him.
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Joh 17:4 I have glorified You upon the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.
Joh 17:5 And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the world was..

Think...How could the Father glorify Jesus with the Glory which Jesus had with the Father before the world was?
You like to pick and choose!

MJFlores said:

Matthew 9:6 New International Version (NIV)
But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “Get up, take your mat and go home.”
What are the points did Jesus make?
1] He is the Son of Man
2] He has the authority to forgive sins
What does it he mean by being the Son of Man?

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Realy? Are you the Son, or Daughter of God and do you have all authority on Earth and Heaven tpo forgive sin?
of did you see what the scribes said: Who can forgive sin but God!

MJFlores said:

Numbers 23:19 New King James Version (NKJV)
“God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent.
Has He said, and will He not do?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

Click to expand...

So, do you say jesus lied?
Did Jesus repent?
What is your point?

MJFlores said:

John 8:39-40 New King James Version (NKJV)
They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”
Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this.

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I agree, and in John 1 it is clear that Jesus was the Word of God, and was with God and WAS GOD AND CREATED EVERYTHING AND BECAME FLESH AND LIVED AMONGST US!!!
Why all these half truths Flores?
Did I not give you ample verses where Jesus claimed to be one with the father and he came from the Heaven when no man came from the Heaven, and He will go back into the heaven to His father who is in Him?
No, no, no
Dont try to get out of your predicament with a lot of dust kicking, you deliberately left out verses in your quotes that specifically said that jesus was from everlasting time.
Why all the videos and pictures that has nothing to do with the discussion.
Dust kicking, or Trolling?

SA Huguenot said:

However, I am a father, son and myself, can not leave me to be a Father whilse the Son is elsewhere.
The Trinity can be in full glory with the Father, Son and Spirit all in one, as He appeared to Moses, or He can be as the Spirit alone hovering above creation or with dwell us, or as the Angel of the Covenant and the glory of God in the tabernacle.
each can leave and act as God, and they can be one with the father, I can not be a father, Son or myseld without one leaving my existance.

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I'm not teaching the heresy of modalism, but there are times when I act in a Father role and times, a Son role. This is one of many allegories of the trinity, if none existed, it wouldn't be a doctrine.

SA Huguenot said:

Joh 5:16 And therefore the Jews persecuted Jesus and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the sabbath day.
Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father works until now, and I work.
Joh 5:18 Then, because of this, the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because He not only had broken the sabbath, but also said that God was His father, making Himself equal with God.
Joh 5:22 For the Father judges no man, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
Joh 5:23 so that all should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
Joh 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, He who hears My Word and believes on Him who sent Me has everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but has passed from death to life.

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This is the problem with throwing verses left and right as though it is like firing a shot gun and doesn't hit a thing?
And the recoil is much worse than the shot.
Let us repeat the verse in a much contemporary version so it would be understood by all.

John 5:17-24 New International Version (NIV)
In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed. For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

What are the points made the Lord Jesus against the misconceptions of the evil Jews of his time?

Jesus declared that God is his Father, hence he is the Son of God.
Jesus said - he could do nothing by himself [which you censured? Why?]
Jesus said - the Father has given him the authority to judge people

Now what did the Jews said on their twisted minds? " he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God."

Are they right?
When one calls to God, as Father will that person claim equality to God?
When you call yourself Father then you claim equality to God but when you pray to God calling Him Father, that is just proper.

MJFlores said:

Who made Jesus God?
It was in 325 AD in Niceae in a council headed by Constantine the Great - the pagan Emperor of the Roman Empire.
An Invented Doctrine, voted upon by 300 long dead Bishops.

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Not true at all!
I showed you a lot of verses where the bishops made their desision on that the Bible claimed Jesus was God.
for 300 years millions of Christians died as martyrs when they refused to burn incense to the caesar.
They worshipped Jesus as God!
The jewish persecution against the newly formed Christian sect, went out to persecute them for worshipping Jesus as GOD!
And, Constantine was a pagan, untill 322AD!
He became a Christian!

shunyadragon said:

The New Testamant was compiled, edited and redacted by the Roman and Greek Church Fathers.



. . . but the comparisons are meaningless analogs, and cannot be remotely compared to the nature of God.

Your analogy above would justify the Trinity as a polytheistic concept of tritheism.

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If only you had proof that it was "redacted, edited"! Thousands of extant fragments don't verify the NT documents?

SA Huguenot said:

Wow!
So now we can go to Unitarians who dont believe in the Trinity, not the divinity of Jesus and use their so calle "Evidence " to disprove the Trinity?
Come on guys, Why not just go to the JW's, it might be easier and we know them all.
These guys say, "the Trinity is not to be found in the Bible..." yet they dont undrestand that everyone knows the "Word Trinity" is not in the Bible, but I will post verses from the Bible that clearly proves that the principal of th eTrinity is a description of God, and this IS IN THE bIBLE.

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I'm not too concerned about whether the God of the Bible is part of a Trinity. If He is He is in good company.

It seems that the human mind gravitates towards a trinitarian view when it contemplates the whole of existence. Whether that is a reality thing or a human mind thing is difficult to say.

SA Huguenot said:

There is one thing you are completely ignoring, and it does not help to use one verse, and then to even use only half the verse to stress your point.
Whats with the big pictures?
Do you think it will change any facts?

This is what you forgot to mention or simply ignored.
Why was Jesus crucified?
Because He claimed to be God!

The Jews and priests killed him because He said He was god!
Mar 2:6 (Luke 5: 20- 21) But some of the scribes were sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
Mar 2:7 Why does this one speak such blasphemies? Who can forgive sins except God only?
Mar 2:10 But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority upon earth to forgive sins,



Joh 5:16 And therefore the Jews persecuted Jesus and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the sabbath day.
Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father works until now, and I work.
Joh 5:18 Then, because of this, the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because He not only had broken the sabbath, but also said that God was His father, making Himself equal with God.
Joh 5:22 For the Father judges no man, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
Joh 5:23 so that all should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
Joh 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, He who hears My Word and believes on Him who sent Me has everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but has passed from death to life.


Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one!
Joh 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered Him, saying, We do not stone you for a good work, but for blasphemy, and because you, being a man, make yourself God.
Joh 10:38 But if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works so that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.



Mat 26:63 But Jesus was silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, I adjure you by the living God that you tell us whether you are the Christ, the Son of God.
Mat 26:64 (Mark 14: 62) Jesus said to him, You said it. I tell you more. From this time you shall see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of the heavens.
Mat 26:65 Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, now you have heard his blasphemy.


(Luk 22:66 Mark 14: 61- 64) And when day came, the body of elders of the people, and the chief priests and the scribes, came together. And they led Him to the sanhedrin, saying,
Luk 22:67 Are you the Christ? Tell us. And He said to them, If I tell you, you will not believe.
Luk 22:68 Also if I ask you, you will not answer Me nor let Me go.
Luk 22:69 From now on the Son of Man shall sit at the right hand of the power of God.
Luk 22:70 And they all said, Are you then the Son of God? And He said to them, You say it, because I AM!
Luk 22:71 And they said, What need do we have for any witness? For we ourselves have heard it from his own mouth.


Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would fight so that I might not be delivered to the Jews. But now My kingdom is not from here.
Joh 18:37 Pilate then said to Him, Are you a king then? Jesus answered, You say it that I am a king. To this end I was born, and for this cause I came into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.
Joh 19:6 Then when the chief priests and under-officers saw Him, they cried out, saying, Crucify! Crucify Him! Pilate said to them, You take Him and crucify Him, for I find no fault in him.
Joh 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a Law, and by our Law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
Joh 19:8 Then when Pilate heard that saying, he was the more afraid.

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All things emerge and evolve...Jesus' story and teachings emerged and evolved from Judaism and other sources. Those sources had trinitarian views no doubt that influenced and inspired what later became an explicit Trinitarian belief. Where we draw the line is perhaps a subjective decision.

SA Huguenot said:

Why dont you first answer my claim that you deliberately hid the truth in this verse?
Joh 17:1 Jesus spoke these words and lifted up His eyes to Heaven and said, Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son so that Your Son also may glorify You,
Joh 17:2 even as You have given Him authority over all flesh so that He should give eternal life to all You have given Him.
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Joh 17:4 I have glorified You upon the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.
Joh 17:5 And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the world was..

Think...How could the Father glorify Jesus with the Glory which Jesus had with the Father before the world was?
You like to pick and choose!

Realy? Are you the Son, or Daughter of God and do you have all authority on Earth and Heaven tpo forgive sin?
of did you see what the scribes said: Who can forgive sin but God!

So, do you say jesus lied?
Did Jesus repent?
What is your point?

I agree, and in John 1 it is clear that Jesus was the Word of God, and was with God and WAS GOD AND CREATED EVERYTHING AND BECAME FLESH AND LIVED AMONGST US!!!
Why all these half truths Flores?
Did I not give you ample verses where Jesus claimed to be one with the father and he came from the Heaven when no man came from the Heaven, and He will go back into the heaven to His father who is in Him?
No, no, no
Dont try to get out of your predicament with a lot of dust kicking, you deliberately left out verses in your quotes that specifically said that jesus was from everlasting time.
Why all the videos and pictures that has nothing to do with the discussion.
Dust kicking, or Trolling?

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That is the problem when you throw away verses and your target verses isn't addressed to.
Maybe you should be concise, use less words.

Your subject is John 17:5 and you like to jump for joy - this is it!!!!!!!!!! Jesus is god and there is no way he could answer this!! Yeeeehaaaa!

Okay, hold yer horses.

John 17:1-5 New International Version (NIV)
After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:

“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

You are suggesting that Jesus Christ was existing ergo "the glory I had with you before the world began"
Where is the Lord Jesus Christ before the world began?
Is he alive???? No he was not done yet. Then why did Jesus Christ prayed to the Father - glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
Having the glory before the world began does not make Jesus Christ, God does it?

Even the Lord Jesus Christ said "Father, the hour has come. Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." Jesus already identified the Father as the ONLY TRUE GOD, that alone disqualifies and negates Jesus Christ as god or another god.

Now what does the glory Jesus had with God before the world began? Well it is the same glory mentioned in

Ephesians 1:4-5 New International Version (NIV)
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

These are people, I am one of those people. I was chosen to be in him [Christ] before the creation of the world by whom [the Father, the ONLY TRUE GOD]. Did I exist before the creation of the world? NO. Does this make me a God? NO. How can God chose me to be in him BEFORE the creation of the world? That why God is God and we are not.

Is Jesus Christ, God? Absolutely NOT.

MJFlores said:

Jesus declared that God is his Father, hence he is the Son of God.
Jesus said - he could do nothing by himself [which you censured? Why?]
Jesus said - the Father has given him the authority to judge people

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And here is your error.
Not THE Father, but My Father.
Big difference when the father is God THE Father, and when MY Father is a specific pointing to Jesus the Son of God, and the Father HIS Father.
The Father is in Jesus and Jesus in the Father.
Again, why did you hide the verse where Jesus said He was with the Father from the beginning before the world was?
jesus was from everlasting with the Father IN the Father, and the Father IN Him.

MJFlores said:

glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

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Big difference again in Jesus who had the glory with the Father before the world began, and the glory which you will share with God which He had before the world began.

get it?
One was joined with God, the other will get glory which existed before the world, only lateron.

I think there is one way to solve your continious hammering on Jesus who said the Father is the only God.
This when you dont wnat to accept that jesus and the Father is one Him being the Word of the Father.
lets ask an apostle who knew jesus and had first handed knowledge of what jesus said.
John, the beloved apostle of Jesus.
He wrote his epilogue to summarise what Jesus did throughout his life.
Here it is.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
...
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
...
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.


OK, so what do you say about this Word that was in the beginning with God, and was God, and who created everything, who came to the earth, who became flesh, who is the bossom of the Father!

Period.
Jesus is God!

SA Huguenot said:

Not true at all!
I showed you a lot of verses where the bishops made their desision on that the Bible claimed Jesus was God.
for 300 years millions of Christians died as martyrs when they refused to burn incense to the caesar.
They worshipped Jesus as God!
The jewish persecution against the newly formed Christian sect, went out to persecute them for worshipping Jesus as GOD!
And, Constantine was a pagan, untill 322AD!
He became a Christian!

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I showed you a lot of verses where the bishops made their desision on that the Bible claimed Jesus was God.
for 300 years millions of Christians died as martyrs when they refused to burn incense to the caesar.

Yep, you have been throwing around a lot of verses- all of them are in the bible alright, but some of them are redacted like some report. You have have to show them in their entirety, otherwise we would take notice.



I worship Jesus Christ but I do not believe he is God. I worship Jesus Christ because it is the order of God to worship him and this we could read in:

Philippians 2:9-11 New International Version (NIV)
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Who exalted [raised] Jesus Christ to the highest place??? It was God
Who gave Jesus Christ the name that is above every name??? It was God
God elevated Jesus Christ to the highest place and God gave him the name above every name!
This is another verse distinguishing who God is and who Jesus Christ is.
God is the exalter and the giver while Jesus is the exalted and the receiver.
Jesus is not God.

Even though Jesus is not God, he is to be worshiped as LORD
to the glory of God the Father.

Are this in the Bible? Yes they are.



The doctrines of the dead bishops are they in the bible? No they are not.
Constantine remained to be pagan and was baptized as a dead man.
He proclaimed Jesus is god in 325 AD with the bishops in a VOTE
He was baptized as Catholic in 337 so during the time he officiated the council of Niceae,
Constantine was a certified Zeus worshiper

Constantine had known death would soon come. Within the Church of the Holy Apostles, Constantine had secretly prepared a final resting-place for himself.[263] It came sooner than he had expected. Soon after the Feast of Easter 337, Constantine fell seriously ill.[264] He left Constantinople for the hot baths near his mother's city of Helenopolis (Altinova), on the southern shores of the Gulf of Nicomedia (present-day Gulf of İzmit). There, in a church his mother built in honor of Lucian the Apostle, he prayed, and there he realized that he was dying. Seeking purification, he became a catechumen, and attempted a return to Constantinople, making it only as far as a suburb of Nicomedia.[265] He summoned the bishops, and told them of his hope to be baptized in the River Jordan, where Christ was written to have been baptized. He requested the baptism right away, promising to live a more Christian life should he live through his illness. The bishops, Eusebius records, "performed the sacred ceremonies according to custom".[266] He chose the Arianizing bishop Eusebius of Nicomedia, bishop of the city where he lay dying, as his baptizer.[267] In postponing his baptism, he followed one custom at the time which postponed baptism until after infancy.[268] It has been thought that Constantine put off baptism as long as he did so as to be absolved from as much of his sin as possible.[269] Constantine died soon after at a suburban villa called Achyron, on the last day of the fifty-day festival of Pentecost directly following Pascha (or Easter), on 22 May 337.[270]

Constantine the Great - Wikipedia

Sad isn't it.
Don't ya worry, I was Catholic before so I know the story and how it came to be.

The Trinitarian concept does not posit that Jesus is God the Father but that Jesus is of God the Father. Again, to understand this concept better, it's important to know what the word "essence" is and how it applies to the Trinity.