Cultural Appropriation, Anyone?

Goodman John · Jul 8, 2019

I am all for 'honoring one's ancestors and culture', but how far do you really take it? Do you take the time to carefully document your family tree to 'prove' your 'German-ness'- and, if so, how far back can you actually trace it? If your family line does indeed lead to Germany or some other Nordic country, but you find they emigrated there from Pakistan and changed their name, what then? Do you drop your 'German-ness' and revel in your new-found 'Pakistani-ness'? If your line reaches only to, say, the 1700's in Germany can you really claim a heritage back to the pre-Christian pagans?

My own line goes back to 1650 in Koln, but there the documented trail goes cold- so if I reach back to pre-Christian pagan times for inspiration am I (or those in that position) essentially 'appropriating a culture and religion' that I can't legitimately lay claim to? If I make the very broad assumption that Koln is where my family always lived, and given that Koln was a rather important colony during the times of the Romans in the Westphalia region of Germany, it's just as likely that my line actually starts with some Roman legionary on campaign- if I were able to go back far enough. If that were the case, shouldn't I be celebrating my Roman heritage and honoring the Roman gods and learning Latin and all that?

Or do I- as I'm sure some have done over the years- just manage to trace it back to Germany/Norway/whatever and say, "AHA- I knew I was German/Norwegian/whateverish!" and leave it at that with no questions about what happened before then?

And, assuming one in good faith does claim a Germanic/Nordic heritage, how far do you go with it? Do you make any attempt to learn German or Old Norse/Icelandic, or even better, Saxon (Old English)? Have you traveled to the towns and lands of your ancestors? Have you met with relatives on the other side of the world to strengthen those family ties?

How deep does the rabbit hole go for you?

icehorse · Jul 8, 2019

These are great questions! One way of looking at this sort of thing is that WE ARE ALL living on stolen land. Another is to ask "what's the ethical / moral statute of limitations" for this kind of thing?

Saint Frankenstein · Jul 8, 2019

I think obsessing with those things is a waste of time. Me, I'm mixed black/white. I know that my European heritage is just Celtic and Germanic, as far as I know. I've had a strong love for Germany for years so I wanted to draw closer to that aspect of my heritage. Going towards the Germanic deities and worldview was just an organic process for me. Also, I think culture plays a part in that we speak a Germanic language (English), many of us are of Germanic ethnicity or at least influenced by those cultures. That's enough for me. I'm just an American mutt.

I would love to visit the countries that my ancestors came from. But I hope to end up living in Germany.

Augustus · Jul 8, 2019

Johan the Toothless said:
My own line goes back to 1650 in Koln, but there the documented trail goes cold- so if I reach back to pre-Christian pagan times for inspiration am I (or those in that position) essentially 'appropriating a culture and religion' that I can't legitimately lay claim to?

There's no such thing as 'cultural appropriation'. People have borrowed from each other's cultures since time immemorial. It's one of the most human things imaginable.

[The Persians'] success owed much to their openness, to judge from the Greek historian Herodotus. ‘The Persians are greatly inclined to adopt foreign customs,’ he wrote: the Persians were prepared to abandon their own style of dress when they concluded that the fashions of a defeated foe were superior, leading them to borrow styles from the Medes as well as from the Egyptians.

Peter Frankopan - The Silk Roads

People used to adopt aspects of the culture of others as a sign of respect and friendship. Even today people will often be happy to see 'outsiders' respectfully adopting their cultural practices. It's mostly a PC Western thing to see it as some kind of evil.

Nakosis · Jul 8, 2019

Johan the Toothless said:
How deep does the rabbit hole go for you?

For entertainment only.

Life is too dynamic IMO to assume causation solely from one's historical past.

IOW, how we ended up being where and who we are.

Augustus · Jul 8, 2019

icehorse said:
One way of looking at this sort of thing is that WE ARE ALL living on stolen land.

Frequently, we are actually living on our own land, we just adopted a foreign culture when they conquered us. Culture spreads much more easily than genes.

From Greece to Turkey to the Levant they are pretty much the same people, yet are thought of as "white" Europeans, and "brown" Turks and Arabs depending on which bits got conquered by whom.

icehorse said:
Another is to ask "what's the ethical / moral statute of limitations" for this kind of thing?

When you move past people who were directly affected by it, claims become a lot weaker.

SugarOcean · Jul 8, 2019

"Cultural Appropriation" is just another race baiting pejorative. Like, "White Privilege". And those ridiculous charges aren't exclusive to any one race or culture, though far too often blacks make the news making a charge against a Caucasian someone for, cultural appropriation. Like a white woman wearing cornrows in her hair for instance.
While it will never be reported that black women with blond dyed hair or wigs, are guilty of cultural appropriation. And that no one seems to make that charge, especially against public celebrities committing that offense, is due to black privilege.

It's all divisive language invented to separate people and discourage community.
Imagine the motive as, the many outnumber the few who rule.
Just like the accusation American's live on "stolen land". As if native tribal people sang Kumbaya till those evil Europeans arrived.

Quintessence · Jul 8, 2019

Haha... to put things into a different perspective, @Johan the Toothless , for me the ancestors are not limited to humans, much less human blood-relatives. In part because of that, I do not obsess about human blood-relatives. We are all relatives. All humans, all life on this planet. And I take that as far as I want to on any given day at any given hour.

Nakosis · Jul 8, 2019

Quintessence said:
Haha... to put things into a different perspective, @Johan the Toothless , for me the ancestors are not limited to humans, much less human blood-relatives. In part because of that, I do not obsess about human blood-relatives. We are all relatives. All humans, all life on this planet. And I take that as far as I want to on any given day at any given hour.

Assuming there is some kind of conscious continuance, that adds an entirely new dynamic to cultural transference.

I do have a memory of being a Black female being sacrificed, to the Gods, in Africa.

Actually thought if I could verify the method of sacrifice used, it'd be kind of mind blowing. At least give me reason to consider the possibility.

Brickjectivity · Jul 8, 2019

Johan the Toothless said:
I am all for 'honoring one's ancestors and culture', but how far do you really take it? Do you take the time to carefully document your family tree to 'prove' your 'German-ness'- and, if so, how far back can you actually trace it? If your family line does indeed lead to Germany or some other Nordic country, but you find they emigrated there from Pakistan and changed their name, what then? Do you drop your 'German-ness' and revel in your new-found 'Pakistani-ness'? If your line reaches only to, say, the 1700's in Germany can you really claim a heritage back to the pre-Christian pagans?

My own line goes back to 1650 in Koln, but there the documented trail goes cold- so if I reach back to pre-Christian pagan times for inspiration am I (or those in that position) essentially 'appropriating a culture and religion' that I can't legitimately lay claim to? If I make the very broad assumption that Koln is where my family always lived, and given that Koln was a rather important colony during the times of the Romans in the Westphalia region of Germany, it's just as likely that my line actually starts with some Roman legionary on campaign- if I were able to go back far enough. If that were the case, shouldn't I be celebrating my Roman heritage and honoring the Roman gods and learning Latin and all that?

Or do I- as I'm sure some have done over the years- just manage to trace it back to Germany/Norway/whatever and say, "AHA- I knew I was German/Norwegian/whateverish!" and leave it at that with no questions about what happened before then?

And, assuming one in good faith does claim a Germanic/Nordic heritage, how far do you go with it? Do you make any attempt to learn German or Old Norse/Icelandic, or even better, Saxon (Old English)? Have you traveled to the towns and lands of your ancestors? Have you met with relatives on the other side of the world to strengthen those family ties?

How deep does the rabbit hole go for you?

You may be interested in Diffusion of Innovations theory.
Diffusion of innovations - Wikipedia
It "Seeks to explain how, why and at what rate new ideas and technology spread."

icehorse · Jul 8, 2019

Augustus said:
When you move past people who were directly affected by it, claims become a lot weaker.

That's a nice rule of thumb.

So how would we apply that to folks who are fourth generation refugees?

Politesse · Jul 8, 2019

I generally try to honor my family's gods and liturgies such as I know them. In terms of my direct genealogical relations, that is one of the reasons I name myself a "Christian Pagan" when pressed to claim an ill-fitting label, rather than just a pagan or general-purpose heretic. I do not believe religious life should be bounded by one's genetics, or confined to harmful political categories like race or class. But I like the idea of keeping a little flame alive over the generations. It's old-fashioned of me, but I find real virtue in the continuance of legacies, so long as those legacies are good and not harmful. So I look for the best of my ancestor's works and replicate them, and do my best to atone for the injuries they visited on others.

Stevicus · Jul 8, 2019

Johan the Toothless said:
Or do I- as I'm sure some have done over the years- just manage to trace it back to Germany/Norway/whatever and say, "AHA- I knew I was German/Norwegian/whateverish!" and leave it at that with no questions about what happened before then?

And, assuming one in good faith does claim a Germanic/Nordic heritage, how far do you go with it? Do you make any attempt to learn German or Old Norse/Icelandic, or even better, Saxon (Old English)? Have you traveled to the towns and lands of your ancestors? Have you met with relatives on the other side of the world to strengthen those family ties?

How deep does the rabbit hole go for you?

My father's side of the family is of Dutch ancestry. They traced their family lineage to the Netherlands, but also a few centuries earlier to French Huguenots. My mother's side is more of a vague mixture - French Cajun, English, a smattering of Irish and Spanish - and possibly some Native American, but some branches of my family tree haven't been fully researched.

But both sides of my family have been here for many generations - so one gets the feeling of being far removed and detached from one's ancestral homeland(s). I never knew any relatives from those lands; they'd be quite distant. I'm as American as apple pie. Europe would look and feel just as foreign to me as New Jersey.

Jim · Jul 8, 2019

Johan the Toothless said:
I am all for 'honoring one's ancestors and culture', but how far do you really take it? Do you take the time to carefully document your family tree to 'prove' your 'German-ness'- and, if so, how far back can you actually trace it? If your family line does indeed lead to Germany or some other Nordic country, but you find they emigrated there from Pakistan and changed their name, what then? Do you drop your 'German-ness' and revel in your new-found 'Pakistani-ness'? If your line reaches only to, say, the 1700's in Germany can you really claim a heritage back to the pre-Christian pagans?

My own line goes back to 1650 in Koln, but there the documented trail goes cold- so if I reach back to pre-Christian pagan times for inspiration am I (or those in that position) essentially 'appropriating a culture and religion' that I can't legitimately lay claim to? If I make the very broad assumption that Koln is where my family always lived, and given that Koln was a rather important colony during the times of the Romans in the Westphalia region of Germany, it's just as likely that my line actually starts with some Roman legionary on campaign- if I were able to go back far enough. If that were the case, shouldn't I be celebrating my Roman heritage and honoring the Roman gods and learning Latin and all that?

Or do I- as I'm sure some have done over the years- just manage to trace it back to Germany/Norway/whatever and say, "AHA- I knew I was German/Norwegian/whateverish!" and leave it at that with no questions about what happened before then?

And, assuming one in good faith does claim a Germanic/Nordic heritage, how far do you go with it? Do you make any attempt to learn German or Old Norse/Icelandic, or even better, Saxon (Old English)? Have you traveled to the towns and lands of your ancestors? Have you met with relatives on the other side of the world to strengthen those family ties?

How deep does the rabbit hole go for you?

Sometimes it might be harmless, and people can do it however they want to. What I would object to, as maybe part of some kinds of oppression, is when it’s imitating parts of the culture of some oppressed people, getting psychological and social benefits from that, without knowing or caring about them, their heritage or what’s happening to them, especially when it’s done by some of the people who benefit the most from the devouring and ravaging ways that the world’s resources are being managed.

The Kilted Heathen · Jul 9, 2019

Augustus said:
There's no such thing as 'cultural appropriation'. People have borrowed from each other's cultures since time immemorial. It's one of the most human things imaginable.

This, but yes and no. Taking inspiration from other cultures, or appreciating facets of another culture and incorporating it into your own is natural and has been going on forever. I only view "cultural appropriation" as such when either A. a function of a culture is taken and claimed by the other culture fully (e.g. Kardashian trying to copyright "Kimono" as her own brand), or B. if a part of culture is taken from with little to no consideration for it's cultural relevance (e.g. metal heads wearing Mjolnir pendants as nothing more than "heavy metal icon")

Cultural Appropriation, Anyone?

Goodman John

Active Member

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar

Augustus

…

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist

Augustus

…

SugarOcean

¡pɹᴉǝM ʎɐʇS

Quintessence

Consults with Trees

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist

Politesse

Amor Vincit Omnia

Stevicus

Veteran Member

Jim

Nets of Wonder

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR