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Christian Bible context only: the baptisms of John and Jesus

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Do you see Jesus saying anywhere in the gospel stories that the water for His baptism is physical water, and not the water of life?

The account says that he was baptized in the Jordan River. That was physical water.

Jews did not "baptize" until John came to encourage them to come and be immersed in the water to symbolise their repentance over sins against the Law. The Mikveh was not baptism, but ritual cleansing, taking God's law to a ridiculous extreme as they were want to do. (Matthew 23) It was nothing like what John was doing. He was preparing repentant Jews for the coming of their Messiah.

"Waters of life" are spoken about in Revelation 7:16-17. Jesus will guide his disciples to the means to preserve their lives eternally.
If you remember, in the wilderness, God miraculously provided "bread"(manna) and water in a parched place. Jesus likened his flesh to the manna and he said he would provide "living water" to save their lives in a spiritual wilderness.

To the Samaritan woman, Jesus spoke about “living water” but he said that this would flow from his followers who put faith in him as they shared it with others. (John 7:37-39) The Christian Greek Scriptures provide abundant evidence that Jesus’ followers, after receiving holy spirit beginning at Pentecost 33 C.E., were impelled to impart life-giving water to all who would listen. They were commanded to remain faithful to Jesus' teachings and to keep preaching even in the face of opposition. (Acts of the Apostles 5:28; Colossians 1:23)
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
First off, it's important to understand that Adam's sin brought death to all because "in Adam all sinned". This means that all mankind share the same flesh and blood nature as Adam. And that nature is sinful nature.
Jesus was under the same death penalty as the rest of mankind because all have sinned in Adam.

Jesus himself personally committed no sin but because he took upon himself the sinful flesh nature he too needed to be baptized. .As he said: "to fulfill all righteousness"

Jesus was a son of God....not a son of Adam. He had no "sinful flesh nature". Like Adam he had free will.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I think now that what Jesus means by “water” when He talks about His baptism, is the Holy Spirit.
I would say that the baptism of fire is the baptism in the Holy Spirit. Not the baptism in water. It would appear that there are too many references of "water" to be in context of the word of God. As Jesus said, "Now you are clean through my word". (john 15:3)
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
First off, it's important to understand that Adam's sin brought death to all because "in Adam all sinned". This means that all mankind share the same flesh and blood nature as Adam. And that nature is sinful nature.
Jesus was under the same death penalty as the rest of mankind because all have sinned in Adam.

Jesus himself personally committed no sin but because he took upon himself the sinful flesh nature he too needed to be baptized. .As he said: "to fulfill all righteousness"


Not a simple subject.... but...

1 Peter 3:21 mentions [water] baptism is an appeal to God for a good conscience and I notice in Luke 3 that while he was being Baptized Jesus was praying. So... I think by faith a repentant person might come to God and be baptized identifying with Christ

Other views are that gentiles becoming Jews were immersed and John was doing the same for physical Jews to commit to a life of repentance toward God

John the Baptist also warned against people coming who don't bear fruit with their repentance. I think it's a little like having a dead apple tree and trying to staple apples to it... won't work... the tree must have life form God and bear fruit from God if it's real

Both John the Baptist and Jesus spoke of repentance and bearing fruit with the repentance. Real repentance leading to life is granted by God and the fruit comes from God cooperating with Him. Saved by grace through faith.

Faith the root. Works the fruit.

John's baptism ( a sign) pointed to a greater baptism (reality), by spirit and fire in by Jesus, which sounds spiritual to me.

I would also lean toward the water Jesus spoke of to the woman at the well would not be simple water baptism but the spiritual life Jesus gives since he said 'living water would flow" living water being flowing not still water and a spring of water is coming from life being connected to Jesus also used in the vine analogy where we are branches and fruitful branches are connected to the vine who is Jesus The woman had a 2000 year old well, Jacob's well for her city and we have a 2,000 year old well which is the life offered because of the work of Jesus on the cross
 
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oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
@sooda @oldbadger The condition for posting in this thread is to argue only from the Christian Bible. Also, the topic is not archaeology and Paul’s Christianity. It’s the baptisms of John and Jesus.
Indeed.
And in order to reassure you that I used the Christian bible, with quotes from Hosea, Mark and Matthew with my personal interpretation of what they were all about, please may I show that again, and maybe you would be kind enough nto make comments about it?

Also, the Christian bible is full of Paul's Christianity, Jim, and to refuise its mention here would be strange.

Here we go...... just to show you that I posted within your rules;-

For this was all about the Jews.

There was no middle class within Palestine.
The working people struggled to make ends meet each year and on their visits to be redeemed and cleansed at the Great Temple they were cheated by the citizens of Jerusalem and surrounding towns for every meal and bed. At the Temple they were cheated when converting their own coin for Temple coin, and the Temple coin was desecrated with graven images, the Head of Baal and even Caesar's abbreviated name, which every man could not avoid touching. If they brought sacrificial lambs with them then these could be condemned as imperfect and the Temple lambs cost so much!

And when they went home they were 'penniless' once again, just for the sake of feeling redeemed and cleansed, because they knew that sin led to sickness.
The Temple and its priests were corrupted, greedy hypocrites, and fed well upon the fears of the working people. And they did not bother with the poor laws any more.

But there was a man who lived out in the wastelands on self subsistence, the sends of the seasons and the surges of the migrations and he was at one with his God. And he knew that this had all happened before.

The Baptist's feelings
Mark {3:7} But when he saw many of the Pharisees and
Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O
generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the
wrath to come? ...........

And he offered mercy and redemption for nothing! Simply by immersion in the Jordan, so that the people could turn around and go home, cleansed, and with their hard earned money in their possession still. And they flocked to him, just as folks would flock to him today! And he called out the chant of Hosea......

Hosea's call:-
Hosea {6:6} For I desired mercy, and
not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt
offerings. {6:7} But they like men have transgressed the
covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.

Mark {1:4} John did baptize in the wilderness, and
preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
{1:5} And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea,
and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the
river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

And the Temple takings, the cruel citizen's earnings and the priest's back-handers fell away. And this caused a crisis, and Antipas was ordered to break up the Baprist's mission and bring him in.

But Jesus got away, out in to the wastelands with other disciples, and he continued on with the Baptist's mission until he himself was captured about a year later on.

Until then, Jesus continued on with Hosea's ancient call:-

Jesus..........Matthew {9:13} But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.


And there it is, and was, before Paul had his ideas for a religion.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
When do you think Jews are baptized in the gospel stories? How often, on what occasions, or in what circumstances?
KJV Christian Bible.
Mark {1:4} John did baptize in the wilderness, and
preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
{1:5} And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea,
and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the
river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

They were all Jews.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
NOTE: This is for anyone, Christian or not, who agrees to argue only from Christian Bibles. Interpretations, and literal or figurative can be argued, but no debates about historicity or authorship.

In the Bible stories about Jesus, it looks to me like in his time there is a popular practice that in English translations is called “baptism.” It looks to me like a symbol of cleansing for various purposes. One of those purposes is to prepare for some event. The baptisms might normally be done by priests, but they can also be done by prophets, and John is a prophet in popular thinking. He is traveling around, baptizing people in preparation for the mission of Jesus.

It looks to me like the water in the baptism of Jesus is the water that He mentions to the woman at the well.

John 4:14 “But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.”

Somehow the disciples have the idea that everyone who wants to follow Jesus needs to be baptized with physical water in the way that is currently popular, and Jesus has no objection to that.

I don’t see any reason in any of that to think that baptism with physical water is a requirement for following Jesus, or that God has rules about when and how to do it.

The water that Jesus makes mention of in
John 4:14, is not baptism.
The water Jesus makes mentioning of, is the word of God that will spring up to everlasting life.

Jesus said in Matthew 28:18-19
18--"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth"

19--"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost"
 

sooda

Veteran Member
KJV Christian Bible.
Mark {1:4} John did baptize in the wilderness, and
preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
{1:5} And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea,
and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the
river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

They were all Jews.

Mark 1:4-5 4And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Mark 1:4-5 4And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.

Can you imagine how the Temple takings crashed?

I think I get your point about the people of Jerusalem going to the Baptist, as well as the Jews from the Northern provinces who had been coming south to the Temple.

QUESTION !! :- You might be able to help. I have read that Jesus baptised some folks in a pool within Jerusalem's walls somewhere, but I cannot find mention of this in my KJV bible. Do you know where this is recorded?
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Can you imagine how the Temple takings crashed?

I think I get your point about the people of Jerusalem going to the Baptist, as well as the Jews from the Northern provinces who had been coming south to the Temple.

QUESTION !! :- You might be able to help. I have read that Jesus baptised some folks in a pool within Jerusalem's walls somewhere, but I cannot find mention of this in my KJV bible. Do you know where this is recorded?

Well, as I understand it, Jesus didn't baptize, but he did heal a blind man at the pool of Siloam.. Maybe 9th chapter of John.
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
Jesus was a son of God....not a son of Adam. He had no "sinful flesh nature". Like Adam he had free will.
Wrong again. All mankind are sons of Adam. Jesus is "son of man" which means son of Adam by definition.
Gen 1:26

Gen 1:26 ויאמרH559 אלהיםH430 נעשׂהH6213 אדםH120 בצלמנוH6754 כדמותנוH1823 וירדוH7287 בדגתH1710 היםH3220 ובעוףH5775 השׁמיםH8064 ובבהמהH929 ובכלH3605 הארץH776 ובכלH3605 הרמשׂH7431 הרמשׂH7430 עלH5921 הארץ׃H776
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
John 4:14
“But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.”

I don’t see any reason in any of that to think that baptism with physical water is a requirement for following Jesus, or that God has rules about when and how to do it.
Nice, I fully agree with this
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
Jesus was a son of God....not a son of Adam. He had no "sinful flesh nature". Like Adam he had free will.
All man share the same flesh and blood nature. That flesh is called sinful flesh. And because Jesus was a mortal man he too shared the same flesh and blood nature that all man share. The sinful flesh has desires or lusts which is where actual sin begins.

Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
Jas 1:14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
Jas 1:15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.
Jas 1:16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers.

Humans do not die because each one sins but because Adam sinned. And in HIM (Adam) all sinned.

The JW's try to avoid the FACT that Adam sinned and brought death into the world because he was lured and enticed by his own desire of the fleshly nature by saying Adam didn't have a sinful flesh nature but 'free will' .o_O
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
I

I agree, but how does that relate to what He means by “water,” when He talks about His baptism?

What "he" said was likely determined by the gospel authors themselves who appear not to been eyewitnesses themselves but who worked creatively from similar source materials and, perhaps, from differing sources.

Another way to examine Jesus' teachings would be to identify the author's "voice" and through examining what makes their gospel unique and how are they in agreement. I believe that currently it is believed that the gospels were written in the following order: Mark, Matthew, Luke and John.

So which gospels mention baptism? This is more study than I have done myself.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
I suspect that what is truly important in Jesus' view is that one experience a submission to the will of God. Whether that is opening up to Jesus' Word or experiencing a spiritual fire or submitting ones self humbly to a ritual immersion in water in the name of ones sins...one should sincerely seek and experience this transformation through personal intent, social demonstration and/or metaphorical experience.

IMO this is the teaching and the rest is merely ritualization of the teaching.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Wrong again. All mankind are sons of Adam. Jesus is "son of man" which means son of Adam by definition.
Gen 1:26

Gen 1:26 ויאמרH559 אלהיםH430 נעשׂהH6213 אדםH120 בצלמנוH6754 כדמותנוH1823 וירדוH7287 בדגתH1710 היםH3220 ובעוףH5775 השׁמיםH8064 ובבהמהH929 ובכלH3605 הארץH776 ובכלH3605 הרמשׂH7431 הרמשׂH7430 עלH5921 הארץ׃H776

Genesis 1:26, has nothing at all to do with Adam and Eve.

Adam and Eve were created the next day after the 7th day, Which is our Sunday.

The first male and female were created on the 6th day, which is our Friday.
Genesis 1:26,31

God rested the 7th day, which is our
Saturday. Genesis 2:2

Then the next day, which is our Sunday,
God created Adam and Eve
Genesis 2:7, 2:21-22

The 7th day stands as a separation between those created on the 6th day and Adam and Eve created on what we call Sunday.
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
Genesis 1:26, has nothing at all to do with Adam and Eve.

Adam and Eve were created the next day after the 7th day, Which is our Sunday.

The first male and female were created on the 6th day, which is our Friday.
Genesis 1:26,31

God rested the 7th day, which is our
Saturday. Genesis 2:2

Then the next day, which is our Sunday,
God created Adam and Eve
Genesis 2:7, 2:21-22

The 7th day stands as a separation between those created on the 6th day and Adam and Eve created on what we call Sunday.
Genesis 1:26 and 2:7 are speaking of the same man.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Genesis 1:26 and 2:7 are speaking of the same man.

Genesis 1:26 and 2:7 are not speaking about the same man.
That's man's teachings and not the teachings of God's.

Why do you suppose God put the 7th day in between Genesis 1:26 and 2:7, so that people would not get them mix in together


You have Genesis 1:26, creation of male and female. On the 6th day, Genesis 1:31

And then God rested on the 7th day.
Genesis 2:2

And then after God rested on the 7th day
on very next day, which we call Sunday God created Adam and Eve.

6th day creation of male and female,
6th day = Friday Genesis 1:31

God rested 7th day = Saturday 2:2

And then after God rested,
On the next day God created
Adam and Eve = Sunday.


God put the 7th day, in between them so they do not get mix in together. But yet people still wants to mix in together.
 
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