Looking for people who have some aim or purpose in these forums

Jim said:

I was wrong to say that I’m against promoting tolerance, without qualifying that. When I see people waving banners of social justice calling for “tolerance,” it looks to me like what they really mean is that they get to decide unilaterally who can say honestly and openly what they believe about moral and social issues and who can’t. It looks to me like camouflage for vilifying some people for what they believe, which is diametrically opposed to my purposes. If that is not part of what you mean by “tolerance,” then I might not be against the tolerance that you’re promoting. No matter if I’m against it or not, I’m still volunteering to be someone for you to talk to, about how to do it better, if you would ever want to.

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I think the word "tolerance" can be used differently, and I definitely wasn't using it as you just described, so I'm glad you made that clarification.

Katzpur said:

I think the word "tolerance" can be used differently, and I definitely wasn't using it as you just described, so I'm glad you made that clarification.

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Thank you. I want to try to clarify some more. I said that my purposes look very different from yours, and that might be true, but also I might be misunderstanding what your purposes are. I’ll try to explain some possible differences I see between yours and mine, then you might be able to see better if I’m misunderstanding yours.

Some objections I might have would be about hostile attitudes and behavior towards some groups or categories of people, explicitly or implicitly, because of what they believe or don’t believe. For example, sometimes the “tolerance” and “understanding” that people are promoting include hostile attitudes and behavior towards people who believe that their religion is the only true one; or who believe that abortion is wrong, or who believe that some kinds of sexual behavior are wrong; or who don’t agree with opening up all spaces for women and girls to all the people who think they are one; or who believe that the earth is only 6000 years old. I disagree with using people’s beliefs as reasons for vilifying them, and trying to silence them and do them harm.

Another objection I might have would be to the idea of people understanding or tolerating beliefs that they see as harmful, as a way of reducing animosities and hostilities across belief divides. I think that actually increases animosities across some divides, and helps perpetuate people’s beliefs being used as reasons for hostile attitudes and behavior against them.

I don’t have any objection to people trying to correct misinformation and misunderstandings about their beliefs.

Thanks to everyone who told me about your aims and purposes. I’ll try to remember, if I have any new ideas about anything we’ve discussed, to post them here, and I hope you’ll do the same.

Jim said:

I don’t remember answering this. If you would like to be able to do that better, and you think it might help to have some people to talk to about that, I’m volunteering to be one of those people. I’ll be thinking about what I might do if I wanted to try to improve the way people think. Meanwhile, here’s my all-purpose strategy for trying to help improve people’s behavior:
- Continually try to improve my own practice of the behavior I’m trying to promote.
- Learn to be a better friend to more people.
- Learn to tell stories that inspire people to want to improve their behavior.
- Help with the growth and spread of healthier, happier and more loving communities.
- Bring all that up for discussion sometimes.

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Unfortunately our methods of going about things are quite different, and while I don't mind one bit, I'm afraid you find yourself unhappy over it. My methods would likely be what many people would consider more "sordid," but I don't care about that either. People's feelings are not my chief concern, and I have to admit that they are actually very low on the list... as are my own feelings - at least, I try to keep them there.

My desire is that people increase not the "love" they experience or put forth, but the responsibility that they grant the world from their perspective. Always be responsible for your actions - whatever actions they are. Don't sugar-coat, don't display your aggression passively, put the realities out there and be ready when people hit you back. Don't run away, try not to flinch, give yourself a lot of slack, and screw up as often as you need to - just remembering to own up to your mistakes. This is what I try to strive for myself, and I have found the tool set I use to be amazingly effective when compared to the tool sets that I see being employed by those around me. I see and hear of so many others around me worrying and stressing over problems that, in many cases, they have created for themselves, and in some cases do not even really exist except in their mind. People who turn to drinking or drug use because they "can't cope" with reality as it presents itself, or they don't like how they react to reality, but don't know what to do about it to change their outlook. In real life, I try very subtly (I swear!) to work my way around my modes of thinking with them... for some reason people tend to think I am bragging when I tell them the facts about my ways of living that keep me safe from such troubles. I can admit that that's probably my fault. But what I often tell them is that I simply see them using the wrong tools. If I saw a guy struggling to turn a screw with the back of a hammer, is it so wrong to offer him a screwdriver? Apparently it is sometimes. Maybe it is my presentation... but in the end, it isn't my fault that these people have the issues they do, and it isn't my fault if they aren't willing to listen to me because I rub them the wrong way. Indeed, I'd like to help, honestly... but I'm not willing to stress over it - I might forget how to use the tools I have come to cherish.

Jim said:

I’m looking for people who have some aim or purpose in posting about religious or anti-religious topics in these forums, that you might possibly be willing to discuss with me. I’m not saying that anyone should, just asking, because that would interest me.

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I scold my daughter for wasting precious time on Instagram. My wife scolds me for wasting time on RF.

I’m trying to learn to be a person that people can talk to if they want to, about what they’re trying to do in these forums. Posting here sometimes about what I’m trying to do, might help encourage that.

I think I can be a better listener for people, If I’m trying to do the same things that they are. One thing I see people trying to do is to educate people about something, or inform them about something that they might need or want to know about. Another is to correct misinformation and misunderstandings. I’ve decided to try to tell people about the light I see in Christianity, and to correct misinformation and misunderstandings about it.

Sometimes I see someone start a thread, then do nothing but spit on what people say in it, day after day. I saw a thread like that, and the topic interests me, but it doesn’t interest me to talk to someone who is going to do nothing but spit on what I’m saying. Maybe I’ll try talking to some other people who are posting there.

Jim said:

I’m looking for people who have some aim or purpose in posting about religious or anti-religious topics in these forums, that you might possibly be willing to discuss with me. I’m not saying that anyone should, just asking, because that would interest me.

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Its really all just cathartic release for me. But I do find religious topics interesting and I'm more into a discussion than a debate that just go in full circle.

TheBannerofHomuraAkemi said:

Its really all just cathartic release for me. But I do find religious topics interesting and I'm more into a discussion than a debate that just go in full circle.

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Maybe the person who is doing nothing but spitting on what people say in the thread they started, is doing it for cathartic release.

Jim said:

Maybe the person who is doing nothing but spitting on what people say in the thread they started, is doing it for cathartic release.

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I can't deny that. People do whatever they like to do for reasons we may not know nor understand, but that just human nature.

Now I’m trying to put myself in the place of someone who desperately wants talk to people all the time about their beliefs, and consider what I might do. I might start a thread asking for volunteers for that. I’m planning now to start a thread asking for volunteers for me to talk to about the gospel of Jesus.

Another thread I might start would be called “Ingenious ways of vilifying all Muslims everywhere for all time, by definition.”

A Vestigial Mote said:

Unfortunately our methods of going about things are quite different, and while I don't mind one bit, I'm afraid you find yourself unhappy over it. My methods would likely be what many people would consider more "sordid," but I don't care about that either. People's feelings are not my chief concern, and I have to admit that they are actually very low on the list... as are my own feelings - at least, I try to keep them there.

My desire is that people increase not the "love" they experience or put forth, but the responsibility that they grant the world from their perspective. Always be responsible for your actions - whatever actions they are. Don't sugar-coat, don't display your aggression passively, put the realities out there and be ready when people hit you back. Don't run away, try not to flinch, give yourself a lot of slack, and screw up as often as you need to - just remembering to own up to your mistakes. This is what I try to strive for myself, and I have found the tool set I use to be amazingly effective when compared to the tool sets that I see being employed by those around me. I see and hear of so many others around me worrying and stressing over problems that, in many cases, they have created for themselves, and in some cases do not even really exist except in their mind. People who turn to drinking or drug use because they "can't cope" with reality as it presents itself, or they don't like how they react to reality, but don't know what to do about it to change their outlook. In real life, I try very subtly (I swear!) to work my way around my modes of thinking with them... for some reason people tend to think I am bragging when I tell them the facts about my ways of living that keep me safe from such troubles. I can admit that that's probably my fault. But what I often tell them is that I simply see them using the wrong tools. If I saw a guy struggling to turn a screw with the back of a hammer, is it so wrong to offer him a screwdriver? Apparently it is sometimes. Maybe it is my presentation... but in the end, it isn't my fault that these people have the issues they do, and it isn't my fault if they aren't willing to listen to me because I rub them the wrong way. Indeed, I'd like to help, honestly... but I'm not willing to stress over it - I might forget how to use the tools I have come to cherish.

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Hear, hear!

I'm pretty adaptable. If I ever tell someone "you've crossed my line", it's often to tell them "Since you are using your right to freedom of speech, don't be surprised if I use mine for what I'm about to tell you, then when it's all over, maybe we can have some drinks and some popcorns." It's not to try to control sane people.

Jim said:

I’m looking for people who have some aim or purpose in posting about religious or anti-religious topics in these forums, that you might possibly be willing to discuss with me. I’m not saying that anyone should, just asking, because that would interest me.

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I post on religious forums so that I can learn about other religions, see other peoples perspectives and test how objective I can be when it comes to discussion. Really, my passion lies here, studying religions and cults. What I can contribute is my understanding of the Bible.

if you want to discuss anything then I am up for it. Especially if you want to share your beliefs and perspectives with me. I actually enjoy having discussions with people about their beliefs and I like challenging their viewpoints plus having my own challenged.

Israel Khan said:

I post on religious forums so that I can learn about other religions, see other peoples perspectives and test how objective I can be when it comes to discussion. Really, my passion lies here, studying religions and cults. What I can contribute is my understanding of the Bible.

if you want to discuss anything then I am up for it. Especially if you want to share your beliefs and perspectives with me. I actually enjoy having discussions with people about their beliefs and I like challenging their viewpoints plus having my own challenged.

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Thank you. I’m trying to learn to be a person for people to talk to about what they’re trying to do, if they want to. If ever you’d like to have people to talk to about what you’re trying to do, I’m volunteering to be one of them.

What I’m trying to do keeps changing. I never know what I’ll be doing next! Right now I’m try to put myself in the place of some other people, trying to do what they’re trying to do, so I can be a better listener for them. Some people are trying to educate people about their beliefs, and to correct misinformation and misunderstandings about them. Some have an important message that they think everyone might need or want to know. Some are desperate to have people to talk to about their beliefs. Some, like you, say they want to learn about other religions.

I try not to have any beliefs, but I do have some ideas and ways of thinking about some religions, and about science. To put myself in the place of people who are trying to educate other people about their beliefs and correct misinformation and misunderstandings, I’m using my ideas about the light I see being hidden behind Christian beliefs, as an example. I’m using that also to put myself in the place of people who have an important message, and people who want to have people to talk to about their beliefs. There’s one who says he would rather die, than to not be able to talk to people about his beliefs.

To learn about other people’s views and ways of thinking, I study what they’re saying, and try to find some way for it to be true. Sometimes words have very different meanings to different people, and what a word means to them in practice can be very different from what they say it means. Often people will cite a dictionary definition as what what they mean by a word, when in actual practice that isn’t what they mean by it at all. It takes a lot of work, and asking questions, and a lot of, “is this what you’re saying,” to try to understand what a person is actually trying to say.

Another thing I’m trying to do is just have friendly conversations with people. Another thing I’m trying to do is to help free people from thinking of people’s religions and beliefs as a way of knowing something about their character and capacities.

I think that Interest discussions will be used more and more for people to get ideas and encouragement from each other, in whatever good they’re trying to do, and that people will be learning more and more to value all people everywhere and care what happens to them. I’m trying to learn to help with all that.

Here’s my all-purpose strategy for helping to improve what kinds of behavior are popular in Internet discussions:
- Continually try to improve my own practice of the behavior I’m promoting.
- Learn to be a better friend to more people.
- Learn to tell stories that will inspire people people to want to improve their attitudes and behavior.
- Help with the growth and spread of healthier, happier and more loving communities.
- Bring all that up for discussion sometimes.

I’m planning to start a thread asking for volunteers to talk to about my ideas about the gospel of Jesus, and a thread about ingenious ways of vilifying all Muslims, by definition.

Some more threads that I might start:
- Science and truth.
- Community service, and character training for children, as possible reasons for people wanting to improve their own character, attitudes and behavior.

Another topic idea:
- Responsible nature management as a spiritual issue.

I don't know if I have some aim or purpose in these forums.
I know I have several purposes for being here as me.

But if I have some aim then it is this:
To try to figure out, how to explain others, how subjective and objective moral and ethics work in the everyday world we share and how that connects to the ideas of Absolute Truth, Ultimate Reality, Objective Reality, Physical Reality and all there other versions of what reality really is.

In practice I suck at it.

mikkel_the_dane said:

I don't know if I have some aim or purpose in these forums.
I know I have several purposes for being here as me.

But if I have some aim then it is this:
To try to figure out, how to explain others, how subjective and objective moral and ethics work in the everyday world we share and how that connects to the ideas of Absolute Truth, Ultimate Reality, Objective Reality, Physical Reality and all there other versions of what reality really is.

In practice I suck at it.

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If you’d like to try to explain it to me, I’m interested. Have you tried to explain it to anyone recently?

Jim said:

Thank you. I’m trying to learn to be a person for people to talk to about what they’re trying to do, if they want to. If ever you’d like to have people to talk to about what you’re trying to do, I’m volunteering to be one of them.

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That would be cool. Sometimes I need to bounce ideas and perspective off others. So that would be great.

Jim said:

What I’m trying to do keeps changing. I never know what I’ll be doing next!

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Interesting. It is always good to try something new and improve parts of your character that needs working on. Seems like you are trying to practice empathetic listening.

It seems like you are trying to aim to become objective. It is something that I think I have proven to have improved in over the years. Basically the goal is to become completely honest with yourself and about your beliefs. You must aim to detect when you are trying to deceive yourself and using confirmation bias. You must be sure that you are taking into account all information and that you aren't being biased in your sources. You must be comfortable reading other opposing views. You must be able to admit when you are wrong. You must be able to place yourself in the shoes of a believer without believing what they believe yourself.

It is extremely tricky. But it is for the greater good.

Israel Khan said:

That would be cool. Sometimes I need to bounce ideas and perspective off others. So that would be great.

Interesting. It is always good to try something new and improve parts of your character that needs working on. Seems like you are trying to practice empathetic listening.

It seems like you are trying to aim to become objective. It is something that I think I have proven to have improved in over the years. Basically the goal is to become completely honest with yourself and about your beliefs. You must aim to detect when you are trying to deceive yourself and using confirmation bias. You must be sure that you are taking into account all information and that you aren't being biased in your sources. You must be comfortable reading other opposing views. You must be able to admit when you are wrong. You must be able to place yourself in the shoes of a believer without believing what they believe yourself.

It is extremely tricky. But it is for the greater good.

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One way that I’ve tried to free myself from any prejudices and delusions that I might have that I’m not aware of is to spend time with some of the people whose ideas and interests seem most contrary to mine, trying to see things their way and see the good in what they’re doing. That’s mostly what I’ve always been doing in Internet discussions.

@mikkel_the_dane I just got a new idea, while I was posting in one of your threads. When we see people using words for their psychological and social effects, more than for trying to actually communicate something, to stop using those words in our thinking, and find other ways to think about the issues.