Jesus is not God

SugarOcean said:

Support your statement please.

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You really should know this. Jesus did NOT fulfill the OT prophecy and the gospels fudged to try and make it fit.

1. Messiah #1: Military Leader - Livius
   Religion - Liviusmessiah/messiah-2-military-leader
   The word "anointed" is used some thirty times in the Jewish Bible, and nearly always refers to the king, almost by definition a warrior. One of the texts that confirmed the ideas of these scholars is the Florilegium from Qumran , one of the scrolls in the library that was discovered near the Dead Sea.
   
   
2. Messiah a Priest, King, Warrior and Judge | Advent of Messiah
   https://adventofmessiah.wordpress.com/2010/07/27/messiah-a-priest-king-warrior-and-judge

The Messiah is the King of Righteousness, and when the last trumpet blows the saints of God will rise to meet Him in the clouds. This warrior KING of Kings will shatter Kings in the day of His wrath and He will judge among the nations. The Anointed Son of David is Lord, Priest, Warrior, Judge A Psalm 110 written by King David
Messiah a Priest, King, Warrior and Judge | Advent of Messiah
adventofmessiah.wordpress.com/2010/07/27/messiah-a-priest-king-warrior-and-judge/

Traditional Judaism teaches that, “The messiah is a G-d fearing, pious Jew, who is both a Torah scholar and a great leader. He is to be a direct descendent of King David, anointed as the new Jewish King.

sooda said:

History has a bad habit of disproving the "factual" account of Genesis. But both believers and non-believers totally miss the point.

Genesis was never written as a history text, it was written as the "creation myth" of the Hebrews. It was purely allegorical and the time setting was based on oral histories.

Fact is that much of the allegorical stuff was, in fact, based on Sumerian and other contemporary belief systems.

Even the Jews understood it to be allegorical, it was the later Christians that made it into an infallible historical/scientific document when it was NEVER intended for that pupose.

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I expect that you are correct, sooda, but I was writing about the gospels.

oldbadger said:

I expect that you are correct, sooda, but I was writing about the gospels.

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I too think the gospels were fiddled with..

The Jews were waiting for a warrior Messiah who would defeat the occupying Roman army and free them from Roman rule as King David defeated the Philistines and as Moses led them out of Egypt.


The Samaritans believed only the first five books of the Old Testament (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) and rejected the rest, including the books that mention King David.

oldbadger said:

So how could three of the authors tell 'totally' different stories if they are called the synoptic gospels?

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They all ripped off Q and sometimes "borrowed" from one or the other.

oldbadger said:

There is a true story there of what the Baptist and then Jesus did....... you just haven't figured that out yet.

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And we never will. Unless someone builds a time machine. Their historicity doesn't matter.

sooda said:

I don't think we can possibly know for certain whether Jesus was God or not. There are too many contradictions... So even if one has been raised the Christian tradition, they cannot be sure.. And, just maybe God has this problem worked out.

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Very insightful! , , , and I do not believe the problem of the nature of God and the Manifestations of God will ever be completely worked out nor defined by humans, because it is a mystery of God, and beyond limits of fallible humans. Nonetheless humans persist in trying to define God in their own cultural image. The Baha'i Faith believes this Manifestation is spiritual not physical. The titles of their divine nature is universal with all the manifestations of God throughout the history of humanity.

From: The Great Educators: Manifestations of God

This definitive statement, that the Manifestations have a human soul, clearly means they are not Logos incarnate. Baha’is understand their human soul, however, as special. It is, as Baha’u’llah made plain, a “pure and stainless Soul,” an undefiled perfect mirror of God’s light. Baha’u’llah explains of the Chosen Ones of God:

The Prophet Isaiah

These sanctified Mirrors, the Daysprings of ancient glory are one and all Exponents on earth of Him Who is the central Orb of the universe, its Essence and ultimate Purpose. From Him proceed their knowledge and power; from Him is derived their sovereignty. The beauty of their countenance is but a reflection of His image, and their revelation is a sign of His deathless glory. They are the Treasuries of divine knowledge, and the Repositories of celestial wisdom. Through them is transmitted a grace that is infinite, and by them is revealed a light that can never fade. – The Book of Certitude, pp. 99-100.

According to the Baha’i teachings these special Souls, the Manifestations of God, are constant reflections of the Light or Logos of God. They are, in Qur’anic terms, Prophets endowed with constancy (Qur’an 46:34.) This constancy distinguishes them from the minor prophets of God, such as Isaiah, or Ezekiel, whom God may reach or inspire via His Logos.

The Manifestations of God, the Baha’i teachings proclaim, are one. This central truth, the pivotal principle of the entire Baha’i Faith, means that all religion is part of a single system:

If thou be of the inmates of this city within the ocean of divine unity, thou wilt view all the Prophets and Messengers of God as one soul and one body, as one light and one spirit, in such wise that the first among them would be last and the last would be first. For they have all arisen to proclaim His Cause and have established the laws of divine wisdom. – Baha’u’llah, Gems of Divine Mysteries

shunyadragon said:

Very insightful! , , , and I do not believe the problem of the nature of God and the Manifestations of God will ever be completely worked out nor defined by humans, because it is a mystery of God. The Baha'i Faith believes this Manifestation is spiritual not physical. The titles of their divine nature is universal with all the manifestations of God throughout the history of humanity.

From: The Great Educators: Manifestations of God

This definitive statement, that the Manifestations have a human soul, clearly means they are not Logos incarnate. Baha’is understand their human soul, however, as special. It is, as Baha’u’llah made plain, a “pure and stainless Soul,” an undefiled perfect mirror of God’s light. Baha’u’llah explains of the Chosen Ones of God:

The Prophet Isaiah

These sanctified Mirrors, the Daysprings of ancient glory are one and all Exponents on earth of Him Who is the central Orb of the universe, its Essence and ultimate Purpose. From Him proceed their knowledge and power; from Him is derived their sovereignty. The beauty of their countenance is but a reflection of His image, and their revelation is a sign of His deathless glory. They are the Treasuries of divine knowledge, and the Repositories of celestial wisdom. Through them is transmitted a grace that is infinite, and by them is revealed a light that can never fade. – The Book of Certitude, pp. 99-100.

According to the Baha’i teachings these special Souls, the Manifestations of God, are constant reflections of the Light or Logos of God. They are, in Qur’anic terms, Prophets endowed with constancy (Qur’an 46:34.) This constancy distinguishes them from the minor prophets of God, such as Isaiah, or Ezekiel, whom God may reach or inspire via His Logos.

The Manifestations of God, the Baha’i teachings proclaim, are one. This central truth, the pivotal principle of the entire Baha’i Faith, means that all religion is part of a single system:

If thou be of the inmates of this city within the ocean of divine unity, thou wilt view all the Prophets and Messengers of God as one soul and one body, as one light and one spirit, in such wise that the first among them would be last and the last would be first. For they have all arisen to proclaim His Cause and have established the laws of divine wisdom. – Baha’u’llah, Gems of Divine Mysteries

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That's nice..

I have believed for over 50 years that I didn't need to fix Jews or Muslims or Christians. .. God had it in hand.

And I also believe that most people aspire to be good.

sooda said:

I too think the gospels were fiddled with..

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Definitely!
It is well known now, and some bibles actually do explain where earliest manuscripts were different.

The Jews were waiting for a warrior Messiah who would defeat the occupying Roman army and free them from Roman rule as King David defeated the Philistines and as Moses led them out of Egypt.

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Yes. But The Baptist and Jesus were not campaigning against Rome, but against a corrupted and greedy and hypocritical priesthood.
Jesus demonstrated this clearly in the Temple, where Romans did not enter.
Galilean Jews were not particularly bothered about Rome because there were no Roman forces in Galilee. Antipas ruled in Galilee with his own forces.

The Samaritans believed only the first five books of the Old Testament (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) and rejected the rest, including the books that mention King David.

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I wish that more was known about the Samaritans.
I like the little that I have read about them.

The Reverend Bob said:

They all ripped off Q and sometimes "borrowed" from one or the other.

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All? There is no Q in G-Mark.

And we never will. Unless someone builds a time
machine.

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You could say that about much that happened in the past. But we can build a fairly accurate picture with what we've got.

Their historicity doesn't matter.

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Not to you, it doresn't. Because you're not interested in it. But to others it is very interesting.

oldbadger said:

Definitely!
It is well known now, and some bibles actually do explain where earliest manuscripts were different.


Yes. But The Baptist and Jesus were not campaigning against Rome, but against a corrupted and greedy and hypocritical priesthood.
Jesus demonstrated this clearly in the Temple, where Romans did not enter.
Galilean Jews were not particularly bothered about Rome because there were no Roman forces in Galilee. Antipas ruled in Galilee with his own forces.


I wish that more was known about the Samaritans.
I like the little that I have read about them.

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The Jews were very divided against one another. Some Jews were considered apostate because they were Hellenized.. Some were considered apostate because they supported Herod and the Romans. The Essenes decamped to the desert.. the zealots and sicarri were dangerous.

The Samaritans were more prosperous and cosmopolitan than the curmudgeons of Jerusalem.

I don't think there was ever a united kingdom.. I think that's a fiction and I think the Judeans hated the Samaritans and people of "Israel".

As a result, Finkelstein believes that there was no United Kingdom, that Jerusalem was only a little village in the 10th century and never served as the capital of David’s kingdom. In reality, at one time Finkelstein believed that David and Solomon were not historical persons.

The Forgotten Kingdom: Two Reviews | Dr. Claude Mariottini ...
claudemariottini.com/2014/07/10/the-forgotten-kingdom-two-reviews/

sooda said:

You really should know this. Jesus did NOT fulfill the OT prophecy and the gospels fudged to try and make it fit.

1. Messiah #1: Military Leader - Livius
   Religion - Liviusmessiah/messiah-2-military-leader
   The word "anointed" is used some thirty times in the Jewish Bible, and nearly always refers to the king, almost by definition a warrior. One of the texts that confirmed the ideas of these scholars is the Florilegium from Qumran , one of the scrolls in the library that was discovered near the Dead Sea.
   
   
2. Messiah a Priest, King, Warrior and Judge | Advent of Messiah
   https://adventofmessiah.wordpress.com/2010/07/27/messiah-a-priest-king-warrior-and-judge

The Messiah is the King of Righteousness, and when the last trumpet blows the saints of God will rise to meet Him in the clouds. This warrior KING of Kings will shatter Kings in the day of His wrath and He will judge among the nations. The Anointed Son of David is Lord, Priest, Warrior, Judge A Psalm 110 written by King David
Messiah a Priest, King, Warrior and Judge | Advent of Messiah
adventofmessiah.wordpress.com/2010/07/27/messiah-a-priest-king-warrior-and-judge/

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Those are your sources. Opinion pieces no more credible than yourself.

sooda said:

You really should know this. Jesus did NOT fulfill the OT prophecy and the gospels fudged to try and make it fit.

1. Messiah #1: Military Leader - Livius
   Religion - Liviusmessiah/messiah-2-military-leader
   The word "anointed" is used some thirty times in the Jewish Bible, and nearly always refers to the king, almost by definition a warrior. One of the texts that confirmed the ideas of these scholars is the Florilegium from Qumran , one of the scrolls in the library that was discovered near the Dead Sea.
   
   
2. Messiah a Priest, King, Warrior and Judge | Advent of Messiah
   https://adventofmessiah.wordpress.com/2010/07/27/messiah-a-priest-king-warrior-and-judge

The Messiah is the King of Righteousness, and when the last trumpet blows the saints of God will rise to meet Him in the clouds. This warrior KING of Kings will shatter Kings in the day of His wrath and He will judge among the nations. The Anointed Son of David is Lord, Priest, Warrior, Judge A Psalm 110 written by King David
Messiah a Priest, King, Warrior and Judge | Advent of Messiah
adventofmessiah.wordpress.com/2010/07/27/messiah-a-priest-king-warrior-and-judge/

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I am well aware thank you.
Many think that Jesus accomplished all prophecies before he departed back to Heaven. That's not true as the bible tells us.
Jesus from the cross said, it is finished.
It was. He delivered the salvation covenant. But not all was yet accomplished per the prophecies of Messiah.

Military leader? That would be in the second coming. See Revelation .

And Jesus was of the line of king David. In his time lineage was traced through the father. And since Jesus was fully man as well as fully God, imbued of the holy spirit, by appearances he was a Jewish male who's "father" would have been understood to be Joseph.
John 6:42 And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”

There were no surnames at that time. Therefore, Jesus , from the Greek, would have been known in the Hebrew as Yeshua(Joshua) ben Joseph. "Joshua son of Joseph".

Matthew 1:1-16 tells you of the Genealogy of Jesus the Messiah. As does Luke 3:23-38
Jesus' mother Mary was descended of David though his son Nathan. If you read the OT Book of Numbers you'll see how the royal inheritance of David passed to Mary, who had no siblings, at least there is nothing in scripture to allude to this, and her firstborn Jesus. The Book of Numbers 27:1-8 and The Book of Numbers 36:6-8

And no Mary was not a perpetual virgin. Jesus did have siblings. However, the virgin birth of Jesus was the important issue .

SugarOcean said:

Those are your sources. Opinion pieces no more credible than yourself.


I am well aware thank you.
Many think that Jesus accomplished all prophecies before he departed back to Heaven. That's not true as the bible tells us.
Jesus from the cross said, it is finished.
It was. He delivered the salvation covenant. But not all was yet accomplished per the prophecies of Messiah.

Military leader? That would be in the second coming. See Revelation .

And Jesus was of the line of king David. In his time lineage was traced through the father. And since Jesus was fully man as well as fully God, imbued of the holy spirit, by appearances he was a Jewish male who's "father" would have been understood to be Joseph.
John 6:42 And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”

There were no surnames at that time. Therefore, Jesus , from the Greek, would have been known in the Hebrew as Yeshua(Joshua) ben Joseph. "Joshua son of Joseph".

Matthew 1:1-16 tells you of the Genealogy of Jesus the Messiah. As does Luke 3:23-38
Jesus' mother Mary was descended of David though his son Nathan. If you read the OT Book of Numbers you'll see how the royal inheritance of David passed to Mary, who had no siblings, at least there is nothing in scripture to allude to this, and her firstborn Jesus. The Book of Numbers 27:1-8 and The Book of Numbers 36:6-8

And no Mary was not a perpetual virgin. Jesus did have siblings. However, the virgin birth of Jesus was the important issue .

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Do you believe in Pinocchio?

The true God does not divide humanity. Only human creations divide . Everything divisive is human created . Jesus causes divisiveness. Jesus cannot be God
But as God does not divide nor cause divisions anyway, why bother with a religion.

sooda said:

Do you believe in Pinocchio?

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Ah, the knee-jerk reaction when faux statements meet an educated Christian.
How quaint.
Well, at least I know now your profile is fiction. Interesting allusion. Does your nose grow when you join these type forums?

We're done. Seek elsewhere Ms. Poe.

SugarOcean said:

And no Mary was not a perpetual virgin. Jesus did have siblings.

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Actually, we don't know that as the word for "brothers" in Koine Greek also includes make cousins.

metis said:

Actually, we don't know that as the word for "brothers" in Koine Greek also includes make cousins.

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True, but it is more likely that Jesus was a part of the family, without after the fact interpretations to justify a Divine mythology of Mary.

Ellen Brown said:

I don't intend to debate on this. What I state is my belief, and others are welcome to theirs, and I will defend their right to their beliefs.

In the OT, when Moses first encounters God, he is told that he can not look upon God and live. Later on, God allows Moses to see him and he comes out all bleached.

Yes, I know that in the NT Jesus says that "I and the Father are one", but I think that means, in context, that the Father and he agree. If Jesus were God, then no one could have looked at him, and people DID look at him, even after the resurrection.

I think that the "Jesus as God" idea came out of the folly of what became the early Catholic Church.

I'm not going to dig all the references out. We all claim to be out of diapers, so you can do it yourself.

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I am not a Christian but I was. I would say that since Jesus was God "in the flesh" he could be near people without killing them. The fact that he was made flesh was the important point.

Diana Montgomery said:

I am not a Christian but I was. I would say that since Jesus was God "in the flesh" he could be near people without killing them. The fact that he was made flesh was the important point.

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An important point in the belief in Roman traditional Christianity, but I do not believe Jesus Christ was God made flesh.

sooda said:

That's nice..

I have believed for over 50 years that I didn't need to fix Jews or Muslims or Christians. .. God had it in hand.

And I also believe that most people aspire to be good.

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The paradox of contradictions is that so many believe that they can define God as this or that within and without Christianity, and make the book keeping account as to who is in and who is out based on what they believe.