Many Paths???

The Reverend Bob said:

Zen bull**** is just as much bull**** as other forms of religious bull****. That crap was like that nice-to-be-nice foot steps in the sand bull**** that I am so sick of. No, we are not all looking at the same goddamn moon and Jesus ain't carrying us across the damn sand

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Clearly, none of this is the result of rational thinking. This is personal anger, and it clouds your reason.

Windwalker said:

Clearly, none of this is the result of rational thinking. This is personal anger, and it clouds your reason.

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You're spouting pithy Zen sayings are you're saying I am the one being irrational? Jesus, dude.

The Reverend Bob said:

Zen bull**** is just as much bull**** as other forms of religious bull****. That crap was like that nice-to-be-nice foot steps in the sand bull**** that I am so sick of. No, we are not all looking at the same goddamn moon and Jesus ain't carrying us across the damn sand

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Enlightenment!!!

rocala said:

I have often heard and read that different religions are just different paths to a supreme truth.
Is this true? Do you believe it?

Obviously there must be an ultimate truth, but do all religions show a way to this?

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Planetarian Truth for Planet Earth
Universal Truth for the Universe

Religions show, if you are lucky, the planetarian Truth

There is 1 religion, the religion of Love
This religion, if followed by all, would solve most problems

I will try. But be warned, I am a skeptic.

What is the word "truth"? Well, if you look at how it works in practice, it is a word, that humans use and it is about how humans behave. Take a mountain and imagine there were no humans. What the word "mountain" is about, would still be there, but not so with "truth". So what about ultimate truth? It is the idea, that there is a truth, which is independent of humans. In western cultural myth ultimate truth is not with God. It is with objective reality. But if you look closer, objective reality is as much a myth as God is a myth.
Rather some believe regardless of being atheistic or religious, that they have found it, the ultimate truth, As I skeptic, I just answer, that in practice I can do it differently.
To some religious humans. I am not in contact with God and will go to Hell. To some atheists I am with their reason, logic and evidence not in contact with objective reality and I don't really having a good life, because I am irrational and what not.
Strip away the particulars and they are both in effect saying the same: They know better and they can objectively judge my worth as a human.
That is the trick behind ultimate truth in practice. Claim it how ever you do, and you can judge other humans not as you, but independent of you.
As a skeptic I answer that for the apparent everyday life it in effect doesn't stop other humans for having a life.

rocala said:

I have often heard and read that different religions are just different paths to a supreme truth.
Is this true? Do you believe it?

Obviously there must be an ultimate truth, but do all religions show a way to this?

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Humans used to be extremely arrogant claiming the sun revolved around the earth
Now science has proved how incredible arrogant and stupid this was to say

Religions still make a similar mistake telling "Jesus is the only way for all" = Pure Arrogance
Arrogance leading to the Truth is rather questionable to put it mildly
(As the saying goes ... Arrogance blinds a person; or even a whole religion)
(Being Blind and Seeing the Truth seems like a "contradictio in terminis")

I don't want to make that mistake , I rather learn from my history lessons
And a little common sense ... Universe is BIG, Earth is tiny, Human is infinitesimal small

stvdv is small ... so I do not know about the Ultimate Truth
I do know a little truth, that "it's unwise to claim `Jesus is the only way for all`"

rocala said:

I have often heard and read that different religions are just different paths to a supreme truth.
Is this true? Do you believe it?

Obviously there must be an ultimate truth, but do all religions show a way to this?

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The ultimate 'truth' is very elusive, if any sort of god exists, it is well hidden. I think all religions are human creations with no input from any external entity.

rocala said:

I have often heard and read that different religions are just different paths to a supreme truth.
Is this true? Do you believe it?

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Not always, obviously. But some of the major religions are clearly attempts at providing practical answers to practical, even universal needs and challenges. In that sense they usually converge to similar findings.

As a matter of fact, much of what is called "religion" in saner contexts amounts to religious <b>language</b> to dabble in such matters. The contents proper tends to be calibrated by human nature and therefore to converge quite a bit.

But the flip side is that we must be careful on deciding what to consider valid religion. There are many unhealthy so-called religions that are not even sane, let alone coherent, let alone converging with sane doctrines.

Obviously there must be an ultimate truth, but do all religions show a way to this?

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Actually, I don't know that there is an ultimate truth. It is uncertain.

But the thorny thing is deciding what to call "all religions". This is a major challenge, despite how often it is glossed over.

metis said:

There may be a right religion, but I certainly don't know which one that might be. Instead, I take a different approach, namely that I tend to think all religions are attempting to understand God(s), and I can live with that.

To a point, maybe. But even if one is uncertain I tend to think it's still better to identify with at least one and then do what one can to make us, them, and the world more humane.

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I am honestly not used to disagreeing with you quite this much, @metis
It is an odd sensation.

rocala said:

I have often heard and read that different religions are just different paths to a supreme truth.
Is this true? Do you believe it?

Obviously there must be an ultimate truth, but do all religions show a way to this?

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Nope, there's only three paths: Left, Right and Middle. There is nothing else.

JJ50 said:

The ultimate 'truth' is very elusive, if any sort of god exists, it is well hidden. I think all religions are .............. with no input from any external entity.

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I actually agree with all of this, but in the exact opposite way you intend to mean this.

The Reverend Bob said:

I think it is the other way around. Because all the cults I know of claim that they have the ultimate truth

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They should be put to the test.

rocala said:

I have often heard and read that different religions are just different paths to a supreme truth.
Is this true? Do you believe it?

Obviously there must be an ultimate truth, but do all religions show a way to this?

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Perhaps they are all paths into the cloud (or fog)?

rocala said:

Obviously there must be an ultimate truth, but do all religions show a way to this?

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"there must be an ultimate truth" ... I rather rephrase this as "there might be an ultimate truth" ... when I have realized then I will use the word "MUST"

Marcion said:

Indeed, a nice way of aJohn to explain that a spiritual aspirant who aspires for the Rule of God has need of a Master (Guru) who can guide him/her on their spiritual path. It is arrogance and pure ignorance to think you can do it alone, a blind person needs a guide who can see the way.

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You don’t think that a person can be his own guru? I think it might be possible sometimes, at least for a part of the path. Now that I think of it, it might even be a good experience for anyone, at some stage in their path.

Vinayaka said:

Good points.
Pretty hard to make the claim that all paths lead to the ultimate truth, if we can't agree to exactly what such ultimate truth is.

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How about the 'Self' as in 'Self-realisation'?

Is there anyone here who hopes that some day they will have nothing more to learn?

If there are people who can honestly say that they have found some supreme or ultimate truth, maybe they mean that after much searching for how to live the best life, they think that they’ve found everything they were searching for.

Kirran said:

How about the 'Self' as in 'Self-realisation'?

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Namaste, how are you?

Yes, some folks would use that as the ultimate truth. Others wouldn't.

Jim said:

I’ve been searching on the Internet to try to find out what people mean by “supreme truth,” who say that all paths lead to it. Most of the search results that came up were about a terrorist organization with that name. Most the ones that I found saying that all paths lead to it, did not say what they mean by it. One of them equated “supreme truth” with God. Another compared it to a mountain top. Some others describe it as some kind of experience, or state of being.

I’m wondering now if people are thinking of it as something to know, or something that can happen to them, that will make them as happy as they could ever want to be, forever.

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As I see it this is the crux of the problem you have keyed in on. I'll try to to explain this as I see it.

It has to do with a dualistic view of reality, versus as nondual view. In a dualistic reality, there is you, and then there is the world out there, outside of you. "Truth" in dualistic systems of thought are viewed as truths outside of yourself, independent of you and your subjectivities.

So when someone speaks of "Ultimate Truth", or Reality, it is still viewed as external to oneself. Ultimate Truth is viewed, as any other mundane truth, as a propositional statement that one tries to comprehend with the mind. So as statement such as, "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free," is seens as learning some propositional truth, some doctrine, some fact or another to "believe in" or comprehend with the mind of reason.

On the other hand, in nonduality, Ultimate Truth, or Reality, is not a propositional statement. It is the true nature of everything. It is not about beliefs. It is literally beyond beliefs, beyond rationality, beyond any mental comprehensions. We ourselves are not separate from Ultimate Reality, but are ourselves that very Truth. To "know" that, is not a mental belief, but a Realization of who and what we are, which is That which is everything. It is something which is apprehended by our being, as opposed to comprehended by the mind.

So when you ask someone who is exclusively seeing Reality through a dualistic lens, "God", like your car or your friend, is "outside of you". When you ask someone with nondual experience and realization about it, they will say that Truth is "just this", and point to everything that is, including themselves.

To the question then of all paths lead to that Ultimate Truth, that is true. The end of all dualistic paths, when reached to the end of dividing the world into this versus that statements, reaches a barrier where you can go no further until that barrier, or veil, is dissolved. Then you see Ultimate Truth, and it is everything that is. "Just this". Not a satisfying answer to the mind trying to figure itself out.

rocala said:

I have often heard and read that different religions are just different paths to a supreme truth.
Is this true?

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What is true is whatever story you want to tell yourself and live by.

rocala said:

Do you believe it?

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Absolutely not. In fact, I rather dislike the notion because it ignores very real and significant differences between religions. One might even say that I hate the notion because I've seen it used to erase cultures and narratives. The only good thing I have to say about the notion is that it is usually well-intentioned. Usually, the folks who hearken to this are trying to evoke unity. But in doing so, they disrespect cultures different from their own in the process.

rocala said:

Obviously there must be an ultimate truth, but do all religions show a way to this?

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What ultimate truth? Whether or not such a thing exists strikes me as irrelevant considering humans are neither omniscient or omnipresent; thus we cannot know if we know any such truth even if it exists.