Jesus is not God

The Reverend Bob said:

Then why did they want to stone him for blasphemy after he said "I and my Father are one" if he just meant "Me and dad agree?" And now?

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They probably did not have "Freedom of Religion"
They obviously had "Freedom of Stoning"

Musing Bassist said:

Should I create a thread, wherein I state that Islam is a false religion, then say the same thing you do here?

You're free to your beliefs, but you're not necessarily free to demand they be unchallenged whenever you post them. Especially if within that same post you outright call Christianity, particularly Catholicism, folly. Frankly OP, this thread comes out as nothing more than a pretext to bash Christian beliefs.

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Thanks, for sharing. I did not get to that "folly" part. Indeed this is belittling (which I don't like at all).

The Reverend Bob said:

Then why did they want to stone him for blasphemy after he said "I and my Father are one" if he just meant "Me and dad agree?" And now?

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They wanted to kill him, for anything. Saying he was the Christ was enough. They were looking for false witnesses to bring charges against him.



But when Jesus was brought before the Sanhedrin, no one said that he claimed to be God, only the Son of God, the Messiah. (Matthew 26:57-67; Luke 22:66-71).

As for evidence that Jesus just meant one in unity and agreement...read Jesus ‘ prayer @ John 17 20-22. It’s obvious.

Ellen Brown said:

I think that you cry fowl when none is done, or intended.

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You outright call my faith folly, which is hardly the way to foster respectful dialogue. Whether or not you do so out of your own honest reading of Scripture, or instead out of an allegiance to the claims of a self-declared seventh century 'prophet' is neither here or there to me. The point is that you attack the beliefs of others whilst simultaneously implying that your opinions be taken for granted. Look it up yourself and you'll see that I'm right is hardly an argument for anything.

URAVIP2ME said:

God can't lie (Titus 1:2; Hebrews 6:8) so God was Not telling a lie that He sent his pre-human heavenly Jesus to Earth for us.
Jesus did Not send himself to Earth.

God is uncreated with No beginning, whereas per-human Jesus had a beginning as per Revelation 3:14; 1:5.
So, the everlasting God of Psalms 90:2 was the only one that was ' before ' the beginning.
Thus, Jesus was Never before the beginning as his God was before the beginning.
Jesus was ' in ' the beginning, he was Not ' before ' the beginning.
This is why Jesus is firstborn of all creation. God was never a creation but Creator - Revelation 4:11

Plus, Jesus did Not resurrect himself out of the grave Acts of the Apostles 2:27.
After his God resurrected the dead Jesus then Jesus appeared before the person of his God - Hebrews 9:24.

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Colossians 1:16-17, in speaking about Jesus,
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist"

Do you understand what it means Jesus is the first born of all creation?
This means that Jesus was before anything was created. For all things were created by Jesus.
As Colossians above States.

Revelation 1:8--- I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty"

So what you have, Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning of all things and the ending of all things.
Jesus is the Almighty God.

SugarOcean said:

Firstly, it is true. In Islam, the OP's faith, Jesus is not God. Jesus is called Isa. And he is a mere prophet. Because the Koran states Allah has no son.

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Describing the Islamic, and the Baha'i belief as well, as Jesus Chriat was a 'mere' prophet is an editorial insult and inaccurate. Islam and the Baha'i Faith describe Jesus Christ as a Manifestation of God, and bearer of the Word of God.

Some Bible Verses that show
Jesus is God
Some people claim to believe that Jesus was a “good prophet”, but they deny that Jesus is God. If that is you, I would like to encourage you to consider some of these Bible verses:

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Given the misuse of the OT citations as in Isaiah, your citations mainly describe Jesus Christ as a Manifestation of God, and the bearer of God's Word especially when ballance with the words of Jesus Christ denying he was God.

1. Matthew 24:36
No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.
Here Jesus makes a distinction between what he knows and what the Father knows.

2. Matthew 26:39
My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me, yet not as I will, but as Thou will.
Jesus’ will is likewise autonomous from God’s Will. Jesus is seeking acquiescence to God’s will.

3. John 5:26
For as the Father has life in Himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.
Jesus received his life from God. God received his life from no one. He is eternally self-existent.

4. John 5:30
By myself, I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who has sent me.
Jesus says, “by myself, I can do nothing.” This indicates that Jesus is relying upon his own relationship with God. He is not trying to “please myself” but rather is seeking to “please the one who sent me.”

5. John 5:19
The Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees the Father doing, because whatever the Father does, the Son does also.
Jesus declares that he is following a pattern laid down by God. He is expressing obedience to God.

6. Mark 10:18
Why do you call me good? No one is good, except God alone.
Here Jesus emphatically makes a distinction between himself and God.

7. John 14:28
The Father is greater than I.
This is another strong statement that makes a distinction between Jesus and God.

8. Matthew 6:9
Our Father, which art in Heaven.
He didn’t pray, Our Father, which art standing right here!”

9. Matthew 27:46
My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Inconceivable if he is God the Creator.

10. John 17:21-23
. . .that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. . ..that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me.
In this prayer Jesus defines the term “to be one.” It is clearly accomplished through the relationship of two autonomous beings. Christian believers are to model their relationship (to become one) after the relationship of God and Christ (as God and Christ are one). Notice that “to be one” does not mean to be “one and the same.”

11. 1 Corinthians 15:27-28
For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Paul declares that God put everything under Christ, except God himself. Instead God rules all things through Christ. (remember: “through him all things were made.”)

12. Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being.
Jesus is the exact representation of his being. I send my representative to Congress. He is not me, myself. He is my representative.

13. Hebrews 4:15 (compared with James 1:13)
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet without sin.
Jesus has been tempted in every way, just as we are, yet he never sinned. See

James 1:13: When tempted, no one should say, God is tempting me. For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt.
Jesus was tempted in every way, but God cannot be tempted. This is why Jesus said, “don’t call me good, none are good, only God.”

14. Hebrews 5:7-9
During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
Jesus had to walk a course of faith and obedience in order to achieve perfection. By achieving perfection, Jesus “became” the source of eternal salvation

. . . and in the OT:

Numbers 23:19 New King James Version (NKJV)
19 “God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent.
Has said, and will He not do?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

oldbadger said:

I know that.
An account compiled by a man living on a prison island off Ephesus (Patmos?) in the early 2nd century who had never been any kind of a direct witness. So we knlow that the Account is going to be flawed.

The account is a compilatiion of reports, sayings, oral traditions, some real, some total junk, and scattered on a timeline in the wrong order over a much extended time.

That is the Account.

But the Account has so many verses that could be accurate in themselves that close scrutiny of all is needed in order to be left with an account which can be considered on the balances of either possibility or probabilty.

And so your ideas about uising a verse to trash an account cannot work.

And the joke is, That Huck Finn was based upon a real person, just like the Jesus story was.
Jesus 1 - Bob 0

On January 25, 1885, Mark Twain conducted an interview with the Minnesota "Tribune," in which he claimed that Huckleberry Finn was not inspired or based upon any one person. But, Mark Twain later claimed that a childhood acquaintance named Tom Blankenship was the original inspiration for Huckleberry Finn.
Who Was Tom Blankenship?
When Samuel Clemens was a boy in Hannibal, Missouri, he was friends with a local boy named Tom Blankenship. In his autobiography, Mark Twain wrote: "In 'Huckleberry Finn' I have drawn Tom Blankenship exactly as he was. He was ignorant, unwashed, insufficiently fed; but he had as good a heart as ever any boy had. His liberties were totally unrestricted. He was the only really independent person--boy or man--in the community, and by consequence, he was tranquilly and continuously happy and envied by the rest of us. And as his society was forbidden us by our parents the prohibition trebled and quadrupled its value, and therefore we sought and got more of his society than any other boy's."

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No, no, no. It doesn't matter if there was a real Huck or not or if John is historically accurate. What matters is the story the author is trying to tell and that's all. The message they are trying to convey and it is obvious to me that the author of Gospel of John want to convey a theological message and that message is about the divinity of Christ. Whither Christ is in actuality divine or not doesn't matter to me, what matters to me is what the text is saying.

Hockeycowboy said:

They wanted to kill him, for anything.

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They gave a specific reason as to why they wanted to stone him in that passage. Go ahead and read it.

stvdv said:

I like this "all are free to share", yet "I don't intend to debate" and "find the references yourself" addition. Count me in on all 3.

For me "God" is the totality. Jesus is a minute part (when seen as man). So in that view Jesus is not God (from quantity POV)

If God were the Ocean, then Jesus is a drop; aren't we all?. The Ocean is water, as is the drop. So from that view Jesus is God (in quality, not in quantity). Aren't we all. Not so special, yet special. No room for puffed up ego left in this view, hence I love it.

So I could say "Jesus is God (as are you and I)"
I could not say "God is Jesus"

Interesting topic.

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Jesus made the universe of oceans and in him all things hold together... so ... I'm not "on board" with saying Jesus is a drop.

whirlingmerc said:

Jesus made the universe of oceans and in him all things hold together... so ... I'm not "on board" with saying Jesus is a drop.

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In the story I heard:
1) "God" created the "universe of oceans and in him all things hold together"
2) "Jesus" was a child born to a virgin called Maria (God created Jesus so to speak)
So I agree to disagree on this one.

Ellen Brown said:

I think that the "Jesus as God" idea

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The only reason Jesus is God is because of credibility.

The Reverend Bob said:

No, no, no. It doesn't matter if there was a real Huck or not or if John is historically accurate. What matters is the story the author is trying to tell and that's all. The message they are trying to convey and it is obvious to me that the author of Gospel of John want to convey a theological message and that message is about the divinity of Christ. Whither Christ is in actuality divine or not doesn't matter to me, what matters to me is what the text is saying.

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. . . which is contradicting and clear as mud.

The Reverend Bob said:

No, no, no. It doesn't matter if there was a real Huck or not or if John is historically accurate. What matters is the story the author is trying to tell and that's all. The message they are trying to convey and it is obvious to me that the author of Gospel of John want to convey a theological message and that message is about the divinity of Christ. Whither Christ is in actuality divine or not doesn't matter to me, what matters to me is what the text is saying.

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Ah..... Well..... The John message was indeed a load of...... Christianity, with dreamt up miracles and the working people picked upon and turned in to Jesus haters.

For me, the scattering of anecdotes which can throw possibilities and probabilities of reality in to the historic Jesus picture are the useful parts.

I have heard that a hallucinogenic mushroom grew in abundance upon Patmos. Now that could help one to understand Revelation and John's gospel with more ease.

shunyadragon said:

. . . which is contradicting and clear as mud.

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How so?

oldbadger said:

For me, the scattering of anecdotes which can throw possibilities and probabilities of reality in to the historic Jesus picture are the useful parts.

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That's the least interesting part, the Jesus of history is quite a boring guy who said nothing original. Things get interesting and meaningful when we pay attention to the mythical Jesus

oldbadger said:

Ah..... Well..... The John message was indeed a load of...... Christianity, with dreamt up miracles and the working people picked upon and turned in to Jesus haters.

For me, the scattering of anecdotes which can throw possibilities and probabilities of reality in to the historic Jesus picture are the useful parts.

I have heard that a hallucinogenic mushroom grew in abundance upon Patmos. Now that could help one to understand Revelation and John's gospel with more ease.

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Or maybe it was borrowed.....

Revelation of John, the original Jewish version ...
historical-jesus.info/rjohn.html
The Jewish original version of Revelation (or Apocalypse) of John, much more coherent than the final one, was written very likely (in Greek) late 70 or 71 C.E. in Syrian Antioch by a temple of Jerusalem ex-priest named John. This work offered an explanation for the holocaust of 70 C.E., with the destruction of Jerusalem & its temple, all of that at the hands of the Romans, and also a badly needed hope for the …

The Reverend Bob said:

That's the least interesting part, the Jesus of history is quite a boring guy who said nothing original. Things get interesting and meaningful when we pay attention to the mythical Jesus

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I see what you think.

I think differently.

God is an abstraction in everyones' mind. What I mean is that thinking goes from nothing to holy, holy.

The main culprit is religion that sets the definition of god. So many definitions it boggles my mind.

If I want a simple, definition I can't get it. I must wade through mountains of texts and even larger mountains of interpretations.

Yet the abstraction of god is a good one (even if you are are an atheist).

It tells you about yourself and, if you pay attention to how the abstraction changes as you develop over time, you will see that you are growing psychologically

That may not be obvious, but it is actually true.
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The Reverend Bob said:

They gave a specific reason as to why they wanted to stone him in that passage. Go ahead and read it.

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Then why wasn't that a charge brought against him at the Sanhedrin trial? Because he called himself "the Son of God." Read the account, @ John 10 36 (Saying he was the Son of God, is not saying he was God. If he was saying that, it would have been an accusation at his trial. It never was.)

Hockeycowboy said:

Then why wasn't that a charge brought against him at the Sanhedrin trial? Because he called himself "the Son of God." Read the account, @ John 10 36 (Saying he was the Son of God, is not saying he was God. If he was saying that, it would have been an accusation at his trial. It never was.)

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I don't care about what your theology or commentary says. It doesn't matter. What matters is what the text says. Why did they want to stone him? They gave a reason as plain as day. What does the text say?

The Reverend Bob said:

I don't care about what your theology or commentary says. It doesn't matter. What matters is what the text says. Why did they want to stone him? They gave a reason as plain as day. What does the text say?

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Ok, believe the apostate Jews' reasoning. Point is, Jesus never said he was God. It wasn't an accusation at his trial.