Why should someone believe?

Audie · Jun 10, 2019

Samantha Rinne said:
I'm afraid I must agree with PureX here. As an obhect lesson, we have but to look at Muslim culture. Now I'm not gonna go into that Muslims are violent or whatever. You've probably heard stuff like that, and it probably sounds hateful whether or not it's true. Instead we're gonna talk about imshallah.

Inshallah (my spelling is likely horrible), is basically "if Allah wills it". It basically personifies total submission to their god, and to fate. There's a problem with this right off. Well, two problems actually. First, let's assume you live this way. You go to school, "I will not need to study for a test, I will trust in Allah." Yeah, I once managed to take a test kinda guessing my way through, I still was sweating bullets with the effort of guessing. Not studying and not spending effort making good guesses, you'll probably fail. Suppose your house is getting worn out, you could call a repair guy. Or you could just shrug and say imshallah in which case the building will fall. I don't do much for my job, cuz I'm a bit lazy, but had I never advertised at all, I would have no customers. Trusting in God is much different to submitting completely to destiny. The second issue with this, is that it often is an excuse for things actively done. You can no longer say something is fate if you actively made choices to arrange a path.

Actual humility is understanding that we need other ppl in this world. Humility is comforting, because it teaches you that you are bot alone, you live in God's world.

Sealchan, the problem with this is that it completely ignores that the last hundred years has been dominated by secular idealism. "Everything would be great if we just shared wealth" leads to people who worked hard to get what they had looking at those people who barely worked at all asking for handouts and saying this is unjust. And getting killed for not going with the program. Or "everything would be great in Germany if the Jews all were gone." ( Hitler used religion as an excuse for the masses, but any serious scholar of his knows he made very anti-religious statements) Or "climate change would be resolved if we got rid of offending technology and limited our population and consumption." Same story, different words.

Inasmuchas it does appear that this, that, and the
other "god" are all no more than products of imagination,
the idea that 'submitting"yourself to your own chosen
concoction is somehow humble strikes this reader
as a bit weird.

dybmh · Jun 10, 2019

Samantha Rinne said:
... Inshallah... There's a problem with this ... just shrug and say imshallah ...

In my experience, most Muslims do not **apply** the idea of Submission in the way you have described. Adding "G-d Willing" to everyday conversation is a way of elevating the words and turning them into a prayer.

Thief · Jun 10, 2019

A1S2Fin said:
I am an atheist. I don't believe in a god. I never really have, since I grew up in a nation where religion has very little power and my family never encouraged any sort of religion in my upbringing.

I haven't had a real conversation about beliefs with religious people before and I'd like to hear why someone does believe in a god or perhaps why they think others should as well.

sorry to get here sooooo late

consider regression …..all the way back to the beginning

Someone had to be First
mind and heart

then consider....Spirit first?
or substance?

PureX · Jun 10, 2019

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Yes we are free to choose that as our reality.

Regards Tony

We are not free to impose it on others, however. And I don't mean that as an act of force, but also as an act of presumption. I am a theist in favor of theism. But I draw the line at uninvited evangelism.

Thief · Jun 10, 2019

Polymath257 said:
This seems to be a common perspective. My view is that light from a candle has meaning even if it eventually goes out.

does eternal darkness also have meaning?

it's not a philosophical idea

it's physically real

TransmutingSoul · Jun 10, 2019

PureX said:
We are not free to impose it on others, however. And I don't mean that as an act of force, but also as an act of presumption. I am a theist in favor of theism. But I draw the line at uninvited evangelism.

Participation in a public religious discussion, is an invitation that ones stated views may be met with many other opinions.

We are free to consider them, not consider them, or remove ourself from the discussion at any time.

Stay well and happy, regards Tony.

PureX · Jun 10, 2019

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Participation in a public religious discussion, is an invitation that ones stated views may be met with many other opinions.

We are free to consider them, not consider them, or remove ourself from the discussion at any time.

Stay well and happy, regards Tony.

I agree, ... here. Not so in the everyday world. Unsolicited religious opinions are arrogant and disrespectful.

Samantha Rinne · Jun 11, 2019

sealchan said:
I think you misused the notion "as God wills it". If you use it as an excuse for inaction too frequently then you gradually cripple yourself. If, however, you use it to steer yourself out of overburdening your sense of control and personal responsibility then it can be vital.

Such things are never meant to be magic spells which disavow us of the need for self-knowledge. They are tools we must learn how to use with wisdom.

I think I used it exactly as they use it. Fatalism is dumb.

Don't get me wrong. I don't like fatalism whether it's from Christian Calvinists, secular genetic determinists, Muslims, or even people who hopefully see everything as happening for a reason.

Good or bad fate, it's a way of surrendering responsibility for your own life.

Samantha Rinne · Jun 11, 2019

dybmh said:
In my experience, most Muslims do not **apply** the idea of Submission in the way you have described. Adding "G-d Willing" to everyday conversation is a way of elevating the words and turning them into a prayer.

Yeah, they do. They deny it up an down (I've looked at their own websites, they deny it up and down). But when a loved one is dying, Christians pray that maybe he can be spared. A Muslim just shrugs and repeats their stock phrase. This pervades their scripture too, where it mentions that their god "deceives who he wills, and guides who he wills." Because they have no idea of the nature of their god and don't even try to find out, they live in a sort of uncertain resignation.
Muslim Fatalism and its consequences
1426 Muslims died when a tunnel collapsed. The overall attitude? "If they didn't die there, they would have died somewhere else at the same time." Yup, that's fatalism.

dybmh · Jun 11, 2019

Samantha Rinne said:
Yeah, they do. They deny it up an down (I've looked at their own websites, they deny it up and down). But when a loved one is dying, Christians pray that maybe he can be spared. A Muslim just shrugs and repeats their stock phrase. This pervades their scripture too, where it mentions that their god "deceives who he wills, and guides who he wills." Because they have no idea of the nature of their god and don't even try to find out, they live in a sort of uncertain resignation.
Muslim Fatalism and its consequences
1426 Muslims died when a tunnel collapsed. The overall attitude? "If they didn't die there, they would have died somewhere else at the same time." Yup, that's fatalism.

OK. My experience in the real world is that it's not as dreary as your internet research claims. But, whatever.

Devout Christians say "Praise The LORD" in everyday conversations...
Devout Jewish People say "God Willing" and "Baruch HaShem" in everyday conversations..
Muslims say, "InSha'Allah"

It really is all the same thing in the real world.

Aupmanyav · Jun 11, 2019

Thief said:
does eternal darkness also have meaning?

You mean non-existence after death? Why should it be so frightening? That is the way of the world (though all that constitutes us, atoms and molecules, remains here only). The drop merges back into the ocean.

PureX said:
I agree, ... here. Not so in the everyday world. Unsolicited religious opinions are arrogant and disrespectful.

But that is the way Bahais are. They are interested only in proselytization (The Emperor's Clothes - get your nose cut, otherwise you don't see them).

Samantha Rinne said:
1426 Muslims died when a tunnel collapsed. The overall attitude? "If they didn't die there, they would have died somewhere else at the same time." Yup, that's fatalism.

Their God was testing, and these people passed the test. They will be with Allah. That is good news (Peace be upon them).

"Allaahummaghfir li (name of the person) warfa' darajatahu fil-mahdiyyeena, wakhlufhu fee 'aqibihi fil-ghaabireena , waghfir-lanaa wa lahu yaa Rabbal-'aalameena, wafsah lahu fee qabrihi wa nawwir lahu feehi."
(O Allah, forgive [name of the person] and elevate his station among those who are guided. Send him along the path of those who came before, and forgive us and him, O Lord of the worlds. Enlarge for him his grave and shed light upon him in it.)
Muslim 2:634

Thief · Jun 11, 2019

Aupmanyav said:
You mean non-existence after death? Why should it be so frightening? That is the way of the world (though all that constitutes us, atoms and molecules, remains here only). The drop merges back into the ocean.

always thought that was a poor comparison

the body is more than a drop

and when it drops.....the spirit stands from it

the body is designed and will do so.....
produce a unique spirit on every occasion

there is NO point is generating billion copies of a learning device
only to lose each one as if they were never born

now if you stand to heaven and they decide you don't belong there

THEN maybe it would be better
had you never been born

PureX · Jun 11, 2019

Samantha Rinne said:
I think I used it exactly as they use it. Fatalism is dumb.

Don't get me wrong. I don't like fatalism whether it's from Christian Calvinists, secular genetic determinists, Muslims, or even people who hopefully see everything as happening for a reason.

Good or bad fate, it's a way of surrendering responsibility for your own life.

"Responsibility" assumes control. And honestly, I don't think we humans are in control of nearly as much as we imagine ourselves to be, and certainly not as much as we wish ourselves to be. The truth is, a great deal of life happens to us whether we want it to, or not. And about all we can control is how we react to it, and even that is minimal.

These days that term "personal responsibility" gets thrown around a lot by people who basically want to victim-blame so as to avoid facing their own culpability in the victimization. We live in a culture that has turned greed into a virtue, and so must somehow mitigate and ignore all the damage that greed does when it becomes our primary mode of decision-making.

Valjean · Jun 11, 2019

"Eternal darkness" sounds like an extinguishing of self and of consciousness. A drop merging with the ocean is an expansion of self and consciousness.

Aupmanyav · Jun 11, 2019

Thief said:
.. and when it drops.....the spirit stands from it ..

Ah the spirits! Love them. Whiskey, Vodka, Rum.

Thief · Jun 11, 2019

Aupmanyav said:
Ah the spirits! Love them. Whiskey, Vodka, Rum.

ha ha

you know what I meant

Thief · Jun 11, 2019

Valjean said:
"Eternal darkness" sounds like an extinguishing of self and of consciousness. A drop merging with the ocean is an expansion of self and consciousness.

more like....

no form of light follows anyone into the grave
no sunlight
no moonlight
no manmade light
no philosophical light

it really is dark down there

you can't merge with anything it you fail to let go of the body

syo · Jul 5, 2019

A1S2Fin said:
why they think others should as well.

NEVER. only freely someone approaches Gods.

Why should someone believe?

Audie

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dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש

Thief

Rogue Theologian

PureX

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Thief

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TransmutingSoul

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PureX

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Samantha Rinne

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Samantha Rinne

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dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru

Thief

Rogue Theologian

PureX

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Valjean

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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru

Thief

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Thief

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syo

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