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Why do not some understand that the Bible teaches that Jesus is God?

Skwim

Veteran Member
Why do not some understand that the Bible teaches that Jesus is God?
  1. Jesus is omnipotent (Revelation 1:8) (Matthew 28:18)
  2. Jesus is omnipresent (Matthew 28:20)
  3. A prophet calls Jesus God (Isaiah 9:5)
  4. The apostles call Jesus God (John 20:28-29) (Romans 9:5) (1 John 5:20)
  5. God the father calls Jesus God (Hebrews 1:8)
  6. Jesus is the image of the invisible Al (Colossians 1:15)
  7. God is the shepherd (Palm 23,1) = Jesus is the shepherd (John 10:11)
  8. God became flesh (human) and Jesus is this flesh (John 1:1+14) (1 Timothy 3:16)
  9. Jesus is worshiped (Acts 7:59-60)
  10. Jesus accepts prayers (John 14:13-14)
  11. Jesus and the father are one (John 10:30)
  12. God is the only Redeemer (Isaiah 43:11) = Jesus is the Redeemer (Luke 2:11)
  13. God will judge the world (Psalm 98:9) = Jesus is the judge (Matthew 25:31-46)
  14. God is the eternal (Psalm 90:2) = Jesus is the eternal (Revelation 1:18)
  15. God is the rock (1.Samuel 2:2) = Jesus is the rock (1 Corinthians 10:4)
  16. God is the Lords of Lords (Deuteronomy 10:17) = Jesus is the Lord of Lords (Revelation 19:16)
  17. God is the first and the last (Isaiah 44:6) = Jesus is the first and the last (Revelation 1:17)
  18. Jesus forgives sins (Mark 2:5)
  19. Jesus demands that one should honor him as one does God honor (John 5:23)
  20. Jesus is the Creator (Rom. 11:36) (Col. 1:16-17)
  21. Jesus is omniscient (John 21:17) (John 6:64)
  22. Who has seen Jesus, has seen God(John 14:9)
  23. God is the light (Psalm 1:27) = Jesus is the light (John 8:12)
  24. Whoever believes in Jesus believes in God (John 12:44)
is not that clear enough?
I guess it gets down to credibility. Why do you believe the Bible is credible? So far I've seen no evidence to suppose so. All I've seen is that it, like the many artifacts of other religions, satisfies a psychological need, which I hardly find reason enough to give it authority. But hey, if believing it's true helps you get through life, AND DOESN'T INFRINGE ON MY RIGHTS so be it. To me it's a bit absurd, especially in light of its many contradictions and outlandish claims, but that's me. :) Believe away, calm.

.



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Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
  1. Jesus is omnipotent (Revelation 1:8) (Matthew 28:18)
  2. Jesus is omnipresent (Matthew 28:20)
  3. A prophet calls Jesus God (Isaiah 9:6)
  4. The apostles call Jesus God (John 20:28-29) (Romans 9:5) (1 John 5:20)
  5. God the father calls Jesus God (Hebrews 1:8)
  6. Jesus is the image of the invisible Al (Colossians 1:15)
  7. God is the shepherd (Palm 23,1) = Jesus is the shepherd (John 10:11)
  8. God became flesh (human) and Jesus is this flesh (John 1:1+14) (1 Timothy 3:16)
  9. Jesus is worshiped (Acts 7:59-60)
  10. Jesus accepts prayers (John 14:13-14)
  11. Jesus and the father are one (John 10:30)
  12. God is the only Redeemer (Isaiah 43:11) = Jesus is the Redeemer (Luke 2:11)
  13. God will judge the world (Psalm 98:9) = Jesus is the judge (Matthew 25:31-46)
  14. God is the eternal (Psalm 90:2) = Jesus is the eternal (Revelation 1:18)
  15. God is the rock (1.Samuel 2:2) = Jesus is the rock (1 Corinthians 10:4)
  16. God is the Lords of Lords (Deuteronomy 10:17) = Jesus is the Lord of Lords (Revelation 19:16)
  17. God is the first and the last (Isaiah 44:6) = Jesus is the first and the last (Revelation 1:17)
  18. Jesus forgives sins (Mark 2:5)
  19. Jesus demands that one should honor him as one does God honor (John 5:23)
  20. Jesus is the Creator (Rom. 11:36) (Col. 1:16-17)
  21. Jesus is omniscient (John 21:17) (John 6:64)
  22. Who has seen Jesus, has seen God(John 14:9)
  23. God is the light (Psalm 1:27) = Jesus is the light (John 8:12)
  24. Whoever believes in Jesus believes in God (John 12:44)
is not that clear enough?


Yeah, OK, fine. I just don't agree with your interpretation. :)
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
  1. Jesus is omnipotent (Revelation 1:8) (Matthew 28:18)
  2. Jesus is omnipresent (Matthew 28:20)
  3. A prophet calls Jesus God (Isaiah 9:6)
  4. The apostles call Jesus God (John 20:28-29) (Romans 9:5) (1 John 5:20)
  5. God the father calls Jesus God (Hebrews 1:8)
  6. Jesus is the image of the invisible Al (Colossians 1:15)
  7. God is the shepherd (Palm 23,1) = Jesus is the shepherd (John 10:11)
  8. God became flesh (human) and Jesus is this flesh (John 1:1+14) (1 Timothy 3:16)
  9. Jesus is worshiped (Acts 7:59-60)
  10. Jesus accepts prayers (John 14:13-14)
  11. Jesus and the father are one (John 10:30)
  12. God is the only Redeemer (Isaiah 43:11) = Jesus is the Redeemer (Luke 2:11)
  13. God will judge the world (Psalm 98:9) = Jesus is the judge (Matthew 25:31-46)
  14. God is the eternal (Psalm 90:2) = Jesus is the eternal (Revelation 1:18)
  15. God is the rock (1.Samuel 2:2) = Jesus is the rock (1 Corinthians 10:4)
  16. God is the Lords of Lords (Deuteronomy 10:17) = Jesus is the Lord of Lords (Revelation 19:16)
  17. God is the first and the last (Isaiah 44:6) = Jesus is the first and the last (Revelation 1:17-18)
  18. Jesus forgives sins (Mark 2:5)
  19. Jesus demands that one should honor him as one does God honor (John 5:23)
  20. Jesus is the Creator (Rom. 11:36) (Col. 1:16-17)
  21. Jesus is omniscient (John 21:17) (John 6:64)
  22. Who has seen Jesus, has seen God(John 14:9)
  23. God is the light (Psalm 1:27) = Jesus is the light (John 8:12)
  24. Whoever believes in Jesus believes in God (John 12:44)
is not that clear enough?

No, selective citations do not tell the whole story.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Well if God was not executed on the Cross, how is sin defeated?

And if the innocent dont pay for the guilty, then where is the road back to Salvation?

Some innocent sucka has to pay our debts! Or we will never be saints, and we are stuck being outlaws.

Perfect logic! The Father gots to punish, and someone's gotta pay.

Why doesnt this stuff sound crazy to people? Okay?
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
  1. Jesus is omnipotent (Revelation 1:8) (Matthew 28:18)
  2. Jesus is omnipresent (Matthew 28:20)
  3. A prophet calls Jesus God (Isaiah 9:6)
  4. The apostles call Jesus God (John 20:28-29) (Romans 9:5) (1 John 5:20)
  5. God the father calls Jesus God (Hebrews 1:8)
  6. Jesus is the image of the invisible Al (Colossians 1:15)
  7. God is the shepherd (Palm 23,1) = Jesus is the shepherd (John 10:11)
  8. God became flesh (human) and Jesus is this flesh (John 1:1+14) (1 Timothy 3:16)
  9. Jesus is worshiped (Acts 7:59-60)
  10. Jesus accepts prayers (John 14:13-14)
  11. Jesus and the father are one (John 10:30)
  12. God is the only Redeemer (Isaiah 43:11) = Jesus is the Redeemer (Luke 2:11)
  13. God will judge the world (Psalm 98:9) = Jesus is the judge (Matthew 25:31-46)
  14. God is the eternal (Psalm 90:2) = Jesus is the eternal (Revelation 1:18)
  15. God is the rock (1.Samuel 2:2) = Jesus is the rock (1 Corinthians 10:4)
  16. God is the Lords of Lords (Deuteronomy 10:17) = Jesus is the Lord of Lords (Revelation 19:16)
  17. God is the first and the last (Isaiah 44:6) = Jesus is the first and the last (Revelation 1:17-18)
  18. Jesus forgives sins (Mark 2:5)
  19. Jesus demands that one should honor him as one does God honor (John 5:23)
  20. Jesus is the Creator (Rom. 11:36) (Col. 1:16-17)
  21. Jesus is omniscient (John 21:17) (John 6:64)
  22. Who has seen Jesus, has seen God(John 14:9)
  23. God is the light (Psalm 1:27) = Jesus is the light (John 8:12)
  24. Whoever believes in Jesus believes in God (John 12:44)
is not that clear enough?

Yes - The one and only God wrapped himself in flesh and shed his blood for man's sins.
 
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Neutral Name

Active Member
  1. Jesus is omnipotent (Revelation 1:8) (Matthew 28:18)
  2. Jesus is omnipresent (Matthew 28:20)
  3. A prophet calls Jesus God (Isaiah 9:6)
  4. The apostles call Jesus God (John 20:28-29) (Romans 9:5) (1 John 5:20)



    Why does Jesus call God father if he is God?
  5. God the father calls Jesus God (Hebrews 1:8)
  6. Jesus is the image of the invisible Al (Colossians 1:15)
  7. God is the shepherd (Palm 23,1) = Jesus is the shepherd (John 10:11)
  8. God became flesh (human) and Jesus is this flesh (John 1:1+14) (1 Timothy 3:16)
  9. Jesus is worshiped (Acts 7:59-60)
  10. Jesus accepts prayers (John 14:13-14)
  11. Jesus and the father are one (John 10:30)
  12. God is the only Redeemer (Isaiah 43:11) = Jesus is the Redeemer (Luke 2:11)
  13. God will judge the world (Psalm 98:9) = Jesus is the judge (Matthew 25:31-46)
  14. God is the eternal (Psalm 90:2) = Jesus is the eternal (Revelation 1:18)
  15. God is the rock (1.Samuel 2:2) = Jesus is the rock (1 Corinthians 10:4)
  16. God is the Lords of Lords (Deuteronomy 10:17) = Jesus is the Lord of Lords (Revelation 19:16)
  17. God is the first and the last (Isaiah 44:6) = Jesus is the first and the last (Revelation 1:17-18)
  18. Jesus forgives sins (Mark 2:5)
  19. Jesus demands that one should honor him as one does God honor (John 5:23)
  20. Jesus is the Creator (Rom. 11:36) (Col. 1:16-17)
  21. Jesus is omniscient (John 21:17) (John 6:64)
  22. Who has seen Jesus, has seen God(John 14:9)
  23. God is the light (Psalm 1:27) = Jesus is the light (John 8:12)
  24. Whoever believes in Jesus believes in God (John 12:44)
is not that clear enough?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member

  1. Jesus is the invisible image of an visible god
    Jesus is the intermediary between god and man
    Jesus says that only his father should be credited. {I'm just the go between}
  2. Jesus is omnipotent (Revelation 1:8) (Matthew 28:18)
    I am the Alpha: That is god. Jesus just speaks for him
    All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations. {Because god "gave him" that authority-aka "given to me". Therefore, if you want to know god, you have to go through me [jesus]}

    ----++----
  3. Jesus is omnipresent (Matthew 28:20)
    All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.e 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations,f baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,g 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with youi always, to the very end of the age.”

    Jesus was given the authority because he is god's son; his incarnation; his intermediary. When you have someone to speak on behalf of someone else, they represent you in what you say and do. Yet, they are not each other.

    ----++----

  4. A prophet calls Jesus God (Isaiah 9:6)
    For a child is born to us, A son is given to us; And the government Is upon His shoulder; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
    In other words, -we will call him- God, Father, Prince of Peace {I think they used these references in Acts if I'm not mistaken-when people looked to jesus as a god since he is the one that died. In other words, they were worshiping christ when they should have been worshiping his father as per jesus said}

    ----++----

  5. The apostles call Jesus God (John 20:28-29) (Romans 9:5) (1 John 5:20)
    20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord. 21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

    Notice jesus doesn't talk about himself but of god.
    Lord and god are placeholders for someone important. Today, we'd probably say Boss or something like that. But not so back then.

    Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

    In other words, god blessed christ who came to the earth. Not a good verse for trinity.

    We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

    They are referring to christ as god because he and the father are one. Christ represents god; he is god's spoke person. Would you expect people to call christ any different if they knew he was the only way to get to his father? A lot of this is context too.

    ----++----

  6. God the father calls Jesus God (Hebrews 1:8)
    Long ago, at many times and ain many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but bin these last days che has spoken to us by dhis Son, whom he appointed ethe heir of all things, through whom also he created gthe world. 3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and hthe exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. iAfter making purification for sins, jhe sat down kat the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much superior to angels as the name lhe has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

    Jesus can do what god does but he isn't god nor does he put himself in that light. You can see how god talks about his son separately as if he is given his power etc to someone else. If jesus had not said his father was greater than he and he doesn't speak for him, I can see it. Unless a contradiction, it doesn't match up.

    ----++----

  7. Jesus is the image of the invisible Al (Colossians 1:15)
    The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

    A son is always in image of his father. (Image, incarnation, intermediary, son)

    ----++----

  8. God is the shepherd (Palm 23,1) = Jesus is the shepherd (John 10:11)
    Jesus is the shepherd because (above) god gave him power over heavens and earth. In other words, the authority god has he gave to his son. (He didn't become his son in the process, though. That's the difference)

    ----++----

  9. God became flesh (human) and Jesus is this flesh (John 1:1+14) (1 Timothy 3:16)
    The Word Became Flesh. 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    The Word is god's Law-his dictation
    People didn't listen to his Law (Before Moses)
    God made his Law incarnate so it can "walk among the people"
    Jesus became the god's law.

    ----++----

  10. Jesus is worshiped (Acts 7:59-60)
    While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin.

    No. People went to christ because he was the link to man and the father. They went to him as if he were god himself because that's the only way they could come to god cleaned was to follow christ. The thing is, christ kept telling them "it's not me, it's god. Stop it."

    ----++----

  11. Jesus accepts prayers (John 14:13-14)
    Cause he's god's intermediary and has the authority given from his father to do so

    ----++----
    [*]Jesus and the father are one (John 10:30)
    Because the son and father are of one mission. (and meaning more than one person together). This is described in the rest of the bible.

    [*]God is the only Redeemer (Isaiah 43:11) = Jesus is the Redeemer (Luke 2:11)
    God's Law is redemption. God's law became incarnate. The incarnation/Law is the redeemer. The Law/Word is christ. Christ is redemption not the source of it.

    [*]God will judge the world (Psalm 98:9) = Jesus is the judge (Matthew 25:31-46)
    Cause jesus is his head man

    [*]God is the eternal (Psalm 90:2) = Jesus is the eternal (Revelation 1:18)
    Cause jesus didn't die

    [*]God is the rock (1.Samuel 2:2) = Jesus is the rock (1 Corinthians 10:4)
    Cause god gave him the authority and redemption "the last law, so to speak"

    [*]God is the Lords of Lords (Deuteronomy 10:17) = Jesus is the Lord of Lords (Revelation 19:16)
    That's stretching it. Probably have to ask someone well culturally versed in the Torah.

    [*]God is the first and the last (Isaiah 44:6) = Jesus is the first and the last (Revelation 1:17-18)
    Cause jesus was god's son

    [*]Jesus forgives sins (Mark 2:5)
    Cause god gave him the authority to do so

    [*]Jesus demands that one should honor him as one does God honor (John 5:23)
    Because to get to his father you must go through jesus (through not am)
    ----++----

  12. Jesus is the Creator (Rom. 11:36) (Col. 1:16-17)
    For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.
    From him {to which god gave authority} and for him all things are made.
    If christ wasn't given the authority, this would be mute

    ----++----

  13. Jesus is omniscient (John 21:17) (John 6:64)
    New International Version The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?" Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you ...

    “17Jesus said to Peter the third time, 'Simon, son of John, do you love me?' Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, 'Do you love me?' and he said to him, 'Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.' Jesus said to him, 'Feed my sheep'” (John 21:17, ESV).

    ----++----


    Lord (not Jehovah-title of authority)....you know everything (because gave you that authority. You don't claim it for yourself)

    However, there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him.) {Just like every other human, you get a feeling something would happen. It does. Oh. rats* I was right.}

    ----++----


  14. Who has seen Jesus, has seen God(John 14:9)
    Jesus answered: “Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can.

    Because god gave christ the same authority he has. Since he is the middle man, of course Philip would refer to christ because in doing so, he's talking to his father (not christ).

    ----++----
  15. God is the light (Psalm 1:27) = Jesus is the light (John 8:12)
    Dispute Over Jesus' Testimony - When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in.

    Cause jesus is between his father and man.
  16. Whoever believes in Jesus believes in God (John 12:44)

    That just means you believe in god because you believe in jesus. It's not a trinity verse.

    You have to read it in context. Also, Through, from, above, prepositions are not the same as is, am, are.
    Lord and god are titles of authority. They are actually Roman words, if I'm not mistaken.

    -

    Okay. I said my little thing passing through. If I don't get back to you by today, I probably won't be back for awhile.
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
Well if God was not executed on the Cross, how is sin defeated?

And if the innocent dont pay for the guilty, then where is the road back to Salvation?

Some innocent sucka has to pay our debts! Or we will never be saints, and we are stuck being outlaws.

Perfect logic! The Father gots to punish, and someone's gotta pay.

Why doesnt this stuff sound crazy to people? Okay?

Study harder. The idea of Original Sin is bogus.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
The Bible teaches that Jesus is God. Okay?
Jesus didn't write the Bible.

It was written by people like Saul of Tarsus, who never even met Jesus.

That's why Moses, who practically took baths with God, did not mention anybody remotely like Jesus. Christ is a legend created over the years after the crucifixion. Totally human fixtion.

Okay?
Tom
 

Earthling

David Henson
Jesus is omnipotent (Revelation 1:8) (Matthew 28:18)

Revelation 1:8 isn't talking about Jesus, it's talking about Jehovah. And it doesn't mention the term omnipotent. What, exactly does that mean? At Matthew 28:18 who gave Jesus the authority? Himself? No.

Jesus is omnipresent (Matthew 28:20)

Neither Jehovah nor Jesus are omnipresent. God's position is fixed in heaven. There would be no need to mention that if he were everywhere all at once. (1 Kings 8:39, 43, 49)

A prophet calls Jesus God (Isaiah 9:6)
The apostles call Jesus God (John 20:28-29) (Romans 9:5) (1 John 5:20)
God the father calls Jesus God (Hebrews 1:8)

Yes. But the angels are called gods, Satan is called a god, Moses, Tammuz, the judges of Israel. Are they God as well? (Exodus 4:16; 7:1; Psalm 8:5; 82:1, 6; John 10:34, 35; Ezekiel 8:1, 3, 14)
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Yes as Human Jesus prayed to his father, and now?
Well, He said His Father is greater than He and He called the Father his God. I'm fine believing that Jesus is God. I'm just not fine believing He is the same individual as His Father. And I'm not quite sure what you believe in this regard. Are the Father and the Son the same individual?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Yes - The one and only God wrapped himself in flesh and shed his blood for man's sins.
So who was this "God wrapped in flesh" speaking to when He addressed His Father while hanging on the cross? If the one and only God was dying on the cross, into whose hands was that God commending His spirit to just before He died? In other words, is the Father God or is the Son God? Or are they both God?
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well, He said His Father is greater than He and He called the Father his God. I'm fine believing that Jesus is God. I'm just not fine believing He is the same individual as His Father. And I'm not quite sure what you believe in this regard. Are the Father and the Son the same individual?

Same Christ Spirit, from God.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So who was this "God wrapped in flesh" speaking to when He addressed His Father while hanging on the cross? If the one and only God was dying on the cross, into whose hands was that God commending His spirit to just before He died? In other words, is the Father God or is the Son God? Or are they both God?

Both born of man, both born of the Christ (Holy) Spirit, both are the 'Self of God' in His chosen Manifestation, they are all we can know of God, but not God.

Regards Tony
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
So who was this "God wrapped in flesh" speaking to when He addressed His Father while hanging on the cross? If the one and only God was dying on the cross, into whose hands was that God commending His spirit to just before He died? In other words, is the Father God or is the Son God? Or are they both God?

The Holy Spirit of God (whose name is YHWH) is eternal. God is a Spirit, and can't be killed or die. So he took on a fleshly body, and called it the Son. It was the fleshly body God was dwelling in that died on the cross. The flesh was called the Son, but it wasn't another person. So while on the cross, it was the flesh crying out to the Spirit. It's not about there being two different persons. It's a distinction between the flesh and the Spirit. The human flesh itself was not God, or it couldn't have been killed. But it was, the body (or you could say the image) God took on. God was the one dwelling in that body.

He was both Father and Son at the same time. The Father (the eternal Spirit) was dwelling in the Son (the flesh). Hence he would say things like:
- if you have seen me you have seen the Father
- I and my Father are one
- before Abraham was I am (that flesh wasn't before Abraham)
- no man cometh unto the Father but by me
- but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father
- Destroy this temple and in 3 days I will raise it up
- My Father worketh hitherto, and I work
- unless you believe that I am he, you will die in your sins
- You neither know me nor my Father: if you had known me, you should have known my Father also

- The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Yes - the Spirit was the Father of that body.
Yes - the Spirit was greater than the flesh.
Yes - the Spirit was the God of that flesh. YHWH said he was the God of all flesh.
 
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Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
The Holy Spirit of God (whose name is YHWH) is eternal. God is a Spirit, and can't be killed or die. So he took on a fleshly body, and called it the Son. It was the fleshly body God was dwelling in that died on the cross. The flesh was called the Son, but it wasn't another person. So while on the cross, it was the flesh crying out to the Spirit. It's not about there being two different persons. It's a distinction between the flesh and the Spirit. The human flesh itself was not God, or it couldn't have been killed. But it was, the body (or you could say the image) God took on. God was the one dwelling in that body.
Wow. :confused: Well, thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. I'm afraid they make absolutely no sense to me, but if all works for you, okay. Your perspective is as valid for you as mine is for me, and I guess we'll just have to wait until some time in the very, very distant future to be able to resolve our difference of opinion.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Jesus is omnipotent (Revelation 1:8)
Revelation 1:8 is about 'the Lord God', not about Jesus.
(Matthew 28:18)
This is Jesus reporting that all authority has NOW BEEN GIVEN to him. Who gave him that, do you think?
Jesus is omnipresent (Matthew 28:20)
That isn't a claim to be omnipresent ─ it's a claim that Jesus is always with the faithful.
A prophet calls Jesus God (Isaiah 9:6)
That's not a reference to Jesus for many reasons eg that the government was never on Jesus' shoulder, that Jesus is mentioned nowhere in the Tanakh.
The apostles call Jesus God (John 20:28-29)
That's only Thomas, who doesn't even test the hypothesis by actually touching Jesus.
(Romans 9:5) says nothing about Jesus being God and why would it? Paul thinks Jesus is Lord, to the glory of God. (1 John 5:20) simply calls Jesus 'the Holy One'.
God the father calls Jesus God (Hebrews 1:8)
First, Hebrews is a pseudepigraph. Second, the author is misquoting Psalm 45:6-7, which is about David's throne, not God's.
Jesus is the image of the invisible Al (Colossians 1:15)
The authorship of Colossians is disputed. But being the image of God is not being God anyway.
God is the shepherd (Palm 23,1) = Jesus is the shepherd (John 10:11)
The Lord is my shepherd, says the Psalm, referring to the monogod of the Jews who was also the God Jesus (a circumcised Jew) worshiped (see below). John 10:11 has Jesus say he's the good shepherd who lays down his life for his sheep, which is a different story ─ there's no sensible way to suggest that the Jewish God would 'lay down his life' in any circs.
God became flesh (human) and Jesus is this flesh (John 1:1+14)
The logos is not God, but a quality associated with God and viewed as a distinct entity ─ as eg 'sophia' is. (1 Timothy 3:16) is another pseudephigraph; and regardless, this passage is clearly a reference to Jesus, not to God.
Jesus is worshiped (Acts 7:59-60)
This says that Stephen. being stoned, called on Jesus. It nowhere suggests that Jesus is God.
Jesus accepts prayers (John 14:13-14)
"Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son." That's no help to your case.
Jesus and the father are one (John 10:30)
Yes, they're 'one' in the manner set out more fully a few chapters on, John 17:20-23 ─ which as you'll see is the manner in which Jesus hopes all his followers will be made one with the Father.
God is the only Redeemer (Isaiah 43:11) = Jesus is the Redeemer (Luke 2:11).
Yes, Isaiah's god says there's no other savior, and Luke says Jesus is savior, and Jesus says he's savior as God's agent. So what?
God will judge the world (Psalm 98:9) = Jesus is the judge (Matthew 25:31-46)
The 'Son of Man' who will very shortly set up the Kingdom and judge it (a) is nowhere clearly identified as Jesus and may be some other agent of God, and (b) even if he's Jesus, he'll do the judging, once again, as God's agent.
God is the eternal (Psalm 90:2) = Jesus is the eternal (Revelation 1:18)
So? As far as we know, mass-energy is eternal.


And blah blah blah.

Now, going the other way, Jesus never even once claims to be God and on no less than 17 occasions denies (in words attributed to him in direct speech) that he's God.

What else would you expect of a 1st century circumcised Jew?

Here are some quotes for Jesus' own words:

Mark 12: 29 Jesus answered, “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one;” ... 32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he;

Matthew 20:23 “to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”

Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”

Luke 18:19 “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

John 5:19 “the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”

John 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own authority; [...] I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”

John 6:38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me

John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”

John 10:29 “My Father [...] is greater than all”.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:10 “The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”

John 14:28 You heard me say to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.

John 16:23 In that day you will ask nothing of me. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask anything of the Father, he will give it to you in my name.

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”
Let me draw your attention to two in particular ─

John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”
They appear to cut to the chase rather nicely.

In addition, Paul consistently distinguishes between Jesus as Lord and the Father as God eg ─

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Philippians 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Finally, as you should know because you've checked the history of the early church, the Trinity doctrine, hence the idea that Jesus is God, doesn't exist before the 4th century CE, so it's no surprise that nothing of the kind is found in the NT.

And as the churches freely admit, the Trinity doctrine is 'a mystery in the strict sense', in that 'it can neither be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation, nor cogently demonstrated by reason after it has been revealed.' And as a moment's thought will disclose to you, that means it's an incoherent nonsense.
 
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TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Wow. :confused: Well, thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. I'm afraid they make absolutely no sense to me, but if all works for you, okay. Your perspective is as valid for you as mine is for me, and I guess we'll just have to wait until some time in the very, very distant future to be able to resolve our difference of opinion.

You may not believe it, but my goal is not just to win a debate. It is about trying to help someone else see the truth, if I can. And it is also about me finding scriptural answers to any problems others present in opposition to my beliefs. What I want is the truth, whatever it is.

What I was hoping you would do, is try to find scriptures that you think refute what I have said. I try to use the scriptures to prove my beliefs, and to refute points others make that I disagree with.

For instance in another post you had said you believed Jesus was the same person as Jehovah, and that Jehovah was God, but was not Elohim. I provided a scripture that I felt proved that to be inaccurate. It was Isaiah 45:5. Where if you put back in the original Hebrew words YHWH and Elohim, it would say in the KJV - I am YHWH, and there is none else, there is no Elohim (God) beside me...


You also had said you believed Jesus (who you believe is Jehovah) was God, but that Elohim was a different person (the Father) and that he was also God. So I then pointed out that was multiple Gods, which is in conflict with the scriptures.

In the end, neither of our perspectives will matter. The only thing that will matter is what was really true.
 
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