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Jesus is not God

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Perhaps this "Jesus" (Isa PBUH to me) does not return because we'd happily murder him again?
According to Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16 Jesus will return. Return in the sense that the 'executional words from Jesus' mouth' will rid the Earth of the wicked forever - Psalms 92:7; Psalms 37:9-11.
As a New Broom sweeps clean, the words from Jesus' mouth will be like the 'broom of annihilation' for the wicked because Armageddon (Psalms 46:9) will prove to be a rescue operation for those of Revelation 7:14,9.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Can you name me one human who isn't?
An ' image ' is only a reflection just as a mirror reflects.
Only sinless Jesus could be that perfect reflection.
Sure we are also made in God's image because to varying degrees we can reflect God's qualities such as love, justice, wisdom and mercy, whereas perfect Jesus could display or reflect God's attributes in a perfect way.
 

SugarOcean

¡pɹᴉǝM ʎɐʇS
I don't intend to debate on this. What I state is my belief, and others are welcome to theirs, and I will defend their right to their beliefs.

In the OT, when Moses first encounters God, he is told that he can not look upon God and live. Later on, God allows Moses to see him and he comes out all bleached.

Yes, I know that in the NT Jesus says that "I and the Father are one", but I think that means, in context, that the Father and he agree. If Jesus were God, then no one could have looked at him, and people DID look at him, even after the resurrection.

I think that the "Jesus as God" idea came out of the folly of what became the early Catholic Church.

I'm not going to dig all the references out. We all claim to be out of diapers, so you can do it yourself.
Firstly, it is true. In Islam, the OP's faith, Jesus is not God. Jesus is called Isa. And he is a mere prophet. Because the Koran states Allah has no son.

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

Whereas the Christian bible , having no relationship to Islam at all, because Islam arrived in roughly 600 years after the founding of Christianity.

Some Bible Verses that show
Jesus is God
Some people claim to believe that Jesus was a “good prophet”, but they deny that Jesus is God. If that is you, I would like to encourage you to consider some of these Bible verses:

Matthew 1:23
- “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 43:10,11 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.”
Revelation 1:17-18; Revelation 2:8 - (Jesus is the First and the Last)

Isaiah 44:6 - (God is the Redeemer)
2 Peter 1:1 (Jesus is the Redeemer) - “To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ

Isaiah 44:24 - (God created the world by Himself alone)
John 1:3; Colossians 1:16 - (Jesus made all things)

John 1:1-3 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made... 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,

John 5:17,18 - “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Therefore the Jews sought to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 5:23 - that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

John 8:24 - “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM [He], you will die in your sins.”

John 8:58 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

John 14:6-7 - Jesus said to him, “I AM the way, the truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”

John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!

Acts 4:12 - “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Acts 20:28 - (God purchased us with His own blood)
Revelation 1:5-6; Revelation 5:8-9 - (Jesus' blood purchased us)

Philippians 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.

Colossians 2:9 - For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily

1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

Titus 2:13 - looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

Hebrews 1:8-9 - But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

2 John 1:7 - For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Revelation 1:8 - “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Revelation 22:13 - “I AM the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”... 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches.”

1 Timothy 6:14-16 - “our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing, which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.”


Hebrews 2:17-18 - “Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.”
Hebrews 4:15-16 - “For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.”
1 Peter 2:24 - “who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we having died to sins, might live for righteousness - by whose stripes you were healed.”

He went from sovereignty to shame and from deity to death? Why!? For you.
John 15:13 - “Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.”
Romans 5:8 - “But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

Source:Bible Verses that show Jesus is God
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
Firstly, it is true. In Islam, the OP's faith, Jesus is not God. Jesus is called Isa. And he is a mere prophet. Because the Koran states Allah has no son.

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

Whereas the Christian bible , having no relationship to Islam at all, because Islam arrived in roughly 600 years after the founding of Christianity.

Some Bible Verses that show
Jesus is God
Some people claim to believe that Jesus was a “good prophet”, but they deny that Jesus is God. If that is you, I would like to encourage you to consider some of these Bible verses:

Matthew 1:23
- “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 43:10,11 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.”
Revelation 1:17-18; Revelation 2:8 - (Jesus is the First and the Last)

Isaiah 44:6 - (God is the Redeemer)
2 Peter 1:1 (Jesus is the Redeemer) - “To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ

Isaiah 44:24 - (God created the world by Himself alone)
John 1:3; Colossians 1:16 - (Jesus made all things)

John 1:1-3 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made... 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,

John 5:17,18 - “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Therefore the Jews sought to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 5:23 - that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

John 8:24 - “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM [He], you will die in your sins.”

John 8:58 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

John 14:6-7 - Jesus said to him, “I AM the way, the truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”

John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!

Acts 4:12 - “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Acts 20:28 - (God purchased us with His own blood)
Revelation 1:5-6; Revelation 5:8-9 - (Jesus' blood purchased us)

Philippians 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.

Colossians 2:9 - For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily

1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

Titus 2:13 - looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

Hebrews 1:8-9 - But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

2 John 1:7 - For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Revelation 1:8 - “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Revelation 22:13 - “I AM the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”... 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches.”

1 Timothy 6:14-16 - “our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing, which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.”


Hebrews 2:17-18 - “Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.”
Hebrews 4:15-16 - “For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.”
1 Peter 2:24 - “who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we having died to sins, might live for righteousness - by whose stripes you were healed.”

He went from sovereignty to shame and from deity to death? Why!? For you.
John 15:13 - “Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.”
Romans 5:8 - “But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

Source:Bible Verses that show Jesus is God

Why is it that people come here and do not state their denomination?

There is a whole chapter in the Quran devoted to Jesus. Surah 2 (Chapter) He, Isa PBUH is revered. Of course their view of Allah SWT (Loosely, Great and Glorious is He) is that he is a Spirit, has no body, so therefore can have no son. I disagree with that opinion because, being the Creator, He can do whatever he wishes. So, Just like many Christians, they seek to limit God, and in a sense I suspicion they want to make themselves "like" God.

That is one of my pet peeves with organized religions. Man being rebellious makes rules about God, seeking to limit him. I think that is satanic.

I have groceries to unload. I'll get back to this.
 

robocop (actually)

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I don't intend to debate on this. What I state is my belief, and others are welcome to theirs, and I will defend their right to their beliefs.

In the OT, when Moses first encounters God, he is told that he can not look upon God and live. Later on, God allows Moses to see him and he comes out all bleached.

Yes, I know that in the NT Jesus says that "I and the Father are one", but I think that means, in context, that the Father and he agree. If Jesus were God, then no one could have looked at him, and people DID look at him, even after the resurrection.

I think that the "Jesus as God" idea came out of the folly of what became the early Catholic Church.

I'm not going to dig all the references out. We all claim to be out of diapers, so you can do it yourself.
Different ways of being God can go together.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
I don't intend to debate on this. What I state is my belief, and others are welcome to theirs, and I will defend their right to their beliefs.

In the OT, when Moses first encounters God, he is told that he can not look upon God and live. Later on, God allows Moses to see him and he comes out all bleached.

Yes, I know that in the NT Jesus says that "I and the Father are one", but I think that means, in context, that the Father and he agree. If Jesus were God, then no one could have looked at him, and people DID look at him, even after the resurrection.

I think that the "Jesus as God" idea came out of the folly of what became the early Catholic Church.

I'm not going to dig all the references out. We all claim to be out of diapers, so you can do it yourself.

Seeing you can't put it together how Jesus is God.
Here's how it works,
God made himself a body of flesh and blood, God encase himself inside the body of Jesus, so that people could look at him.

The body of Jesus was just a covering for God to come down here in,
so that people could look at him.
 

The Reverend Bob

Fart Machine and Beastmaster
Seeing you can't put it together how Jesus is God.
Here's how it works,
God made himself a body of flesh and blood, God encase himself inside the body of Jesus, so that people could look at him.

The body of Jesus was just a covering for God to come down here in,
so that people could look at him.
Basically you are saying that Jesus is God's beard
 

charlie sc

Well-Known Member
I don't intend to debate on this. What I state is my belief, and others are welcome to theirs, and I will defend their right to their beliefs.

In the OT, when Moses first encounters God, he is told that he can not look upon God and live. Later on, God allows Moses to see him and he comes out all bleached.

Yes, I know that in the NT Jesus says that "I and the Father are one", but I think that means, in context, that the Father and he agree. If Jesus were God, then no one could have looked at him, and people DID look at him, even after the resurrection.

I think that the "Jesus as God" idea came out of the folly of what became the early Catholic Church.

I'm not going to dig all the references out. We all claim to be out of diapers, so you can do it yourself.
Muhammad was never a prophet.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Seeing you can't put it together how Jesus is God.
Here's how it works,
God made himself a body of flesh and blood, God encase himself inside the body of Jesus, so that people could look at him.
The body of Jesus was just a covering for God to come down here in,
so that people could look at him.
God can't lie (Titus 1:2; Hebrews 6:8) so God was Not telling a lie that He sent his pre-human heavenly Jesus to Earth for us.
Jesus did Not send himself to Earth.

God is uncreated with No beginning, whereas per-human Jesus had a beginning as per Revelation 3:14; 1:5.
So, the everlasting God of Psalms 90:2 was the only one that was ' before ' the beginning.
Thus, Jesus was Never before the beginning as his God was before the beginning.
Jesus was ' in ' the beginning, he was Not ' before ' the beginning.
This is why Jesus is firstborn of all creation. God was never a creation but Creator - Revelation 4:11

Plus, Jesus did Not resurrect himself out of the grave Acts of the Apostles 2:27.
After his God resurrected the dead Jesus then Jesus appeared before the person of his God - Hebrews 9:24.
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
I'm not going to dig all the references out. We all claim to be out of diapers, so you can do it yourself.
Should I create a thread, wherein I state that Islam is a false religion, then say the same thing you do here?

You're free to your beliefs, but you're not necessarily free to demand they be unchallenged whenever you post them. Especially if within that same post you outright call Christianity, particularly Catholicism, folly. Frankly OP, this thread comes out as nothing more than a pretext to bash Christian beliefs.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
I think the ensemble of ideas in the Bible do point to Jesus as being somehow God the Son. One in purpose with the Father. One in divine y babynature with the father. At the same time a different person who prays to the Father.

I realize it is not a simple thing and grabbing a verse here and proof texting with a verse here and there doesn't do justice to the issue.

A few reasons I believe Jesus is in some sense God include:

1) Jesus as being in a sense from birth intrinsically 'the holy child' where only God is holy

2) The apostles seeing Jesus foreshadowed in the Ark of the covenant which shows the pressense of God.

3) Many things that pertain to God in the Old are ascribed to Jesus in the New. To God every knee will bow in Isiah and To Jesus every knee with bow in Philippians Same with title of God and even some prayers to God and many other things.


And those are a few. I do realize it's a difficult issue.
 
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The Reverend Bob

Fart Machine and Beastmaster
Hi Bob......
Do you believe the above account?
It's not a matter if I believe the account, the account is part of the narrative. I might not believe in the Huckleberry Finn traveling down a river but Huckleberry traveling down a river is the narrative
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
It's not a matter if I believe the account, the account is part of the narrative.
So you do believe that the account is/was part of the narrative.
There's a problem there, because the original accounts were so messed with, manipulated and edited that you have to take that in to account.
And so to quote a passage in order to refute part or all of the account is a weak position to take.

I might not believe in the Huckleberry Finn traveling down a river but Huckleberry traveling down a river is the narrative
Such analogies cannot help you. The thing is, that Mark Twain (lor whatever his real name was) probably took much of Finn's story from real life, real experiences.
Much of the Jesus story was taken from a real Jesus, with a real campaign for the people, just like the Baptist's.

So positions such as yours, referring to novels as examples, actually don't help.
 

The Reverend Bob

Fart Machine and Beastmaster
So you do believe that the account is/was part of the narrative.
There's a problem there, because the original accounts were so messed with, manipulated and edited that you have to take that in to account.
And so to quote a passage in order to refute part or all of the account is a weak position to take.


Such analogies cannot help you. The thing is, that Mark Twain (lor whatever his real name was) probably took much of Finn's story from real life, real experiences.
Much of the Jesus story was taken from a real Jesus, with a real campaign for the people, just like the Baptist's.

So positions such as yours, referring to novels as examples, actually don't help.
The Gospel of John is the Gospel of John, it isn't the Gospel of Luke or the Gospel of Mark or the Gospel of Matthew. You read the Gospel of John solely as the Gospel of John.
 
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oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
The Gospel of John is the Gospel of John, it isn't the Gospel of Luke or the Gospel of Mark or the Gospel of Matthew. You read the Gospel of John solely as the Gospel of John.

I know that.
An account compiled by a man living on a prison island off Ephesus (Patmos?) in the early 2nd century who had never been any kind of a direct witness. So we knlow that the Account is going to be flawed.

The account is a compilatiion of reports, sayings, oral traditions, some real, some total junk, and scattered on a timeline in the wrong order over a much extended time.

That is the Account.

But the Account has so many verses that could be accurate in themselves that close scrutiny of all is needed in order to be left with an account which can be considered on the balances of either possibility or probabilty.

And so your ideas about uising a verse to trash an account cannot work.

And the joke is, That Huck Finn was based upon a real person, just like the Jesus story was.
Jesus 1 - Bob 0

On January 25, 1885, Mark Twain conducted an interview with the Minnesota "Tribune," in which he claimed that Huckleberry Finn was not inspired or based upon any one person. But, Mark Twain later claimed that a childhood acquaintance named Tom Blankenship was the original inspiration for Huckleberry Finn.
Who Was Tom Blankenship?
When Samuel Clemens was a boy in Hannibal, Missouri, he was friends with a local boy named Tom Blankenship. In his autobiography, Mark Twain wrote: "In 'Huckleberry Finn' I have drawn Tom Blankenship exactly as he was. He was ignorant, unwashed, insufficiently fed; but he had as good a heart as ever any boy had. His liberties were totally unrestricted. He was the only really independent person--boy or man--in the community, and by consequence, he was tranquilly and continuously happy and envied by the rest of us. And as his society was forbidden us by our parents the prohibition trebled and quadrupled its value, and therefore we sought and got more of his society than any other boy's."
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
Should I create a thread, wherein I state that Islam is a false religion, then say the same thing you do here?

You're free to your beliefs, but you're not necessarily free to demand they be unchallenged whenever you post them. Especially if within that same post you outright call Christianity, particularly Catholicism, folly. Frankly OP, this thread comes out as nothing more than a pretext to bash Christian beliefs.

I think that you cry fowl when none is done, or intended.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
I don't intend to debate on this. What I state is my belief, and others are welcome to theirs, and I will defend their right to their beliefs.

In the OT, when Moses first encounters God, he is told that he can not look upon God and live. Later on, God allows Moses to see him and he comes out all bleached.

Yes, I know that in the NT Jesus says that "I and the Father are one", but I think that means, in context, that the Father and he agree. If Jesus were God, then no one could have looked at him, and people DID look at him, even after the resurrection.

I think that the "Jesus as God" idea came out of the folly of what became the early Catholic Church.

I'm not going to dig all the references out. We all claim to be out of diapers, so you can do it yourself.
I like this "all are free to share", yet "I don't intend to debate" and "find the references yourself" addition. Count me in on all 3.

For me "God" is the totality. Jesus is a minute part (when seen as man). So in that view Jesus is not God (from quantity POV)

If God were the Ocean, then Jesus is a drop; aren't we all?. The Ocean is water, as is the drop. So from that view Jesus is God (in quality, not in quantity). Aren't we all. Not so special, yet special. No room for puffed up ego left in this view, hence I love it.

So I could say "Jesus is God (as are you and I)"
I could not say "God is Jesus"

Interesting topic.
 
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