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Jesus is not God

Ellen Brown

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
I don't intend to debate on this. What I state is my belief, and others are welcome to theirs, and I will defend their right to their beliefs.

In the OT, when Moses first encounters God, he is told that he can not look upon God and live. Later on, God allows Moses to see him and he comes out all bleached.

Yes, I know that in the NT Jesus says that "I and the Father are one", but I think that means, in context, that the Father and he agree. If Jesus were God, then no one could have looked at him, and people DID look at him, even after the resurrection.

I think that the "Jesus as God" idea came out of the folly of what became the early Catholic Church.

I'm not going to dig all the references out. We all claim to be out of diapers, so you can do it yourself.
 
C

calm

Active Member
Moses did not see God, no human can see God without dying.
Exodus 33:20
20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.”

But we have seen God, in Jesus. When Philip asked Jesus to show him God, Jesus answered:
John 14:9
“Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen God. How can you say, ‘Show us God’?

God became flesh(human) and Jesus is this flesh.
John 1:1+14
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son4 from the Father, full of grace and truth.

God became visible to us people in which he became man in Jesus Christ. He is the visible of the invisible.
Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the origin of all creation.
 
David T

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Ellen Brown said:
I don't intend to debate on this. What I state is my belief, and others are welcome to theirs, and I will defend their right to their beliefs.

In the OT, when Moses first encounters God, he is told that he can not look upon God and live. Later on, God allows Moses to see him and he comes out all bleached.

Yes, I know that in the NT Jesus says that "I and the Father are one", but I think that means, in context, that the Father and he agree. If Jesus were God, then no one could have looked at him, and people DID look at him, even after the resurrection.

I think that the "Jesus as God" idea came out of the folly of what became the early Catholic Church.

I'm not going to dig all the references out. We all claim to be out of diapers, so you can do it yourself.
Click to expand...
my existence is dependent upon the tree. If it ceases to exist I cease to exist. If i cease to exist the tree just continues on.

So dependencies can be painted into a rich variety of forms linguistically. Dependencies exist independent of words, they arent dependent on words.

So when one then, goes to the text the authors don't paint a science text. What is understood and passed on is a layering upon the text. The text isnt stating a intellectual theology but an experience.

Ellen, disregard religion in context to the text. Go hike get to the source nature.

Now i say that word and suddenly it can be transliterated into science. Infanct if you go to barnes and nobel the section is called science/nature. How come its not over in the Religion/nature section? There isnt one.

Many would conclude one does exist. Depending on barnes and nobel as your guide to reality is, i think rather problematic.

Ignore the text, its in the landscape. Then if you are unfortunate to come to understand and see that. We can dialog through that! You may become a landscape writer, or a landscape musician, or a landscape painter. Or some other voice expressing but one that is true to you. Some will understand most will not. Thats art, mysticism, jung, nature, religious texts all rolled up together!


170px-Roaring_Fork_River.jpg
 
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Politesse

Politesse

Amor Vincit Omnia
Ellen Brown said:
I don't intend to debate on this. What I state is my belief, and others are welcome to theirs, and I will defend their right to their beliefs.

In the OT, when Moses first encounters God, he is told that he can not look upon God and live. Later on, God allows Moses to see him and he comes out all bleached.

Yes, I know that in the NT Jesus says that "I and the Father are one", but I think that means, in context, that the Father and he agree. If Jesus were God, then no one could have looked at him, and people DID look at him, even after the resurrection.

I think that the "Jesus as God" idea came out of the folly of what became the early Catholic Church.

I'm not going to dig all the references out. We all claim to be out of diapers, so you can do it yourself.
Click to expand...
And yet, everyone who looked at him is now dead.
 
C

calm

Active Member
@Ellen Brown
Here are more Bible verses that prove that Jesus is God.
Please read everything in peace.

  1. Jesus is omnipotent (Revelation 1:8) (Matthew 28:18)
  2. Jesus is omnipresent (Matthew 28:20)
  3. A prophet calls Jesus God (Isaiah 9:6)
  4. The apostles call Jesus God (John 20:28-29) (Romans 9:5) (1 John 5:20)
  5. God the father calls Jesus God (Hebrews 1:8)
  6. Jesus is the image of the invisible Al (Colossians 1:15)
  7. God is the shepherd (Palm 23,1) = Jesus is the shepherd (John 10:11)
  8. God became flesh (human) and Jesus is this flesh (John 1:1+14) (1 Timothy 3:16)
  9. Jesus is worshiped (Acts 7:59-60)
  10. Jesus accepts prayers (John 14:13-14)
  11. Jesus and the father are one (John 10:30)
  12. God is the only Redeemer (Isaiah 43:11) = Jesus is the Redeemer (Luke 2:11)
  13. God will judge the world (Psalm 98:9) = Jesus is the judge (Matthew 25:31-46)
  14. God is the eternal (Psalm 90:2) = Jesus is the eternal (Revelation 1:18)
  15. God is the rock (1.Samuel 2:2) = Jesus is the rock (1 Corinthians 10:4)
  16. God is the Lords of Lords (Deuteronomy 10:17) = Jesus is the Lord of Lords (Revelation 19:16)
  17. God is the first and the last (Isaiah 44:6) = Jesus is the first and the last (Revelation 1:17-18)
  18. Jesus forgives sins (Mark 2:5)
  19. Jesus demands that one should honor him as one does God honor (John 5:23)
  20. Jesus is the Creator (Rom. 11:36) (Col. 1:16-17)
  21. Jesus is omniscient (John 21:17) (John 6:64)
  22. Who has seen Jesus, has seen God(John 14:9)
  23. God is the light (Psalm 1:27) = Jesus is the light (John 8:12)
  24. Whoever believes in Jesus believes in God (John 12:44)
 
Ellen Brown

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
calm said:
Only Jesus is the visible God.
Click to expand...

This is a mantra to you, something you recite for comfort. I don't want to force anyone to believe the way I do, nor do I need their support. I have studied broadly, seeking to find the true Creator. Mostly it is the murderous leanings of believers that is most discouraging. You see it in Christians, Muslims, Jews and those outside the fold.

Perhaps this "Jesus" (Isa PBUH to me) does not return because we'd happily murder him again?
 
Ellen Brown

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
calm said:
@Ellen Brown
Here are more Bible verses that prove that Jesus is God.
Please read everything in peace.

  1. Jesus is omnipotent (Revelation 1:8) (Matthew 28:18)
  2. Jesus is omnipresent (Matthew 28:20)
  3. A prophet calls Jesus God (Isaiah 9:6)
  4. The apostles call Jesus God (John 20:28-29) (Romans 9:5) (1 John 5:20)
  5. God the father calls Jesus God (Hebrews 1:8)
  6. Jesus is the image of the invisible Al (Colossians 1:15)
  7. God is the shepherd (Palm 23,1) = Jesus is the shepherd (John 10:11)
  8. God became flesh (human) and Jesus is this flesh (John 1:1+14) (1 Timothy 3:16)
  9. Jesus is worshiped (Acts 7:59-60)
  10. Jesus accepts prayers (John 14:13-14)
  11. Jesus and the father are one (John 10:30)
  12. God is the only Redeemer (Isaiah 43:11) = Jesus is the Redeemer (Luke 2:11)
  13. God will judge the world (Psalm 98:9) = Jesus is the judge (Matthew 25:31-46)
  14. God is the eternal (Psalm 90:2) = Jesus is the eternal (Revelation 1:18)
  15. God is the rock (1.Samuel 2:2) = Jesus is the rock (1 Corinthians 10:4)
  16. God is the Lords of Lords (Deuteronomy 10:17) = Jesus is the Lord of Lords (Revelation 19:16)
  17. God is the first and the last (Isaiah 44:6) = Jesus is the first and the last (Revelation 1:17-18)
  18. Jesus forgives sins (Mark 2:5)
  19. Jesus demands that one should honor him as one does God honor (John 5:23)
  20. Jesus is the Creator (Rom. 11:36) (Col. 1:16-17)
  21. Jesus is omniscient (John 21:17) (John 6:64)
  22. Who has seen Jesus, has seen God(John 14:9)
  23. God is the light (Psalm 1:27) = Jesus is the light (John 8:12)
  24. Whoever believes in Jesus believes in God (John 12:44)
Click to expand...

You assume much, and that wrongly. You haven't been rejected by every religious group you have approached have you. I stand by the belief in the Creator because he put that in my heart. Not going to pour out my heart to you. Go your way in peace.
 
Ellen Brown

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
calm said:
Moses did not see God, no human can see God without dying.
Exodus 33:20
20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.”

But we have seen God, in Jesus. When Philip asked Jesus to show him God, Jesus answered:
John 14:9
“Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen God. How can you say, ‘Show us God’?

God became flesh(human) and Jesus is this flesh.
John 1:1+14
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son4 from the Father, full of grace and truth.

God became visible to us people in which he became man in Jesus Christ. He is the visible of the invisible.
Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the origin of all creation.
Click to expand...

Then read a little more about after he, Moses was given the tablets. Don't rely on your pastor. In another few years you will be a full adult. You have the Priesthood of the Believer, so prepare yourself to bear the full mantle.

Become as familiar with the Bible as your favorite Video Game. Then read the Quran, the Fatwas and the Hadeeths, and the Jewish works that are not associated with the OT. When you pray, be on your knees, learn to feel repentance and contriteness. Experience rejection and murderous hatred. You have such a long way to go and sometimes wish to die.
 
C

calm

Active Member
Ellen Brown said:
Then read a little more about after he, Moses was given the tablets. Don't rely on your pastor. In another few years you will be a full adult. You have the Priesthood of the Believer, so prepare yourself to bear the full mantle.

Become as familiar with the Bible as your favorite Video Game. Then read the Quran, the Fatwas and the Hadeeths, and the Jewish works that are not associated with the OT. When you pray, be on your knees, learn to feel repentance and contriteness. Experience rejection and murderous hatred. You have such a long way to go and sometimes wish to die.
Click to expand...
Please call me the Bible passage. then we can continue talking.
 
C

calm

Active Member
The Reverend Bob said:
Just the Hebrews?
Click to expand...
yes, only the Hebrews. In John 10:34, Jesus refers to Psalm 82:6, where the wretched Hebrews judges receive the title gods from God . But that has nothing to do with Colossians 1.15. You pick out some verses without knowing the context.
 
U

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
The Reverend Bob said:
Then why did they want to stone him for blasphemy after he said "I and my Father are one" if he just meant "Me and dad agree?" And now?
Click to expand...
Since Jesus teaches that his Father is greater than all ( everyone ) at John 10:29; John 14:28
then, John 10:30 is talking about unity just as John 17:11; John 17:21-23 is talking about unity, agreement, purpose.
Jesus was divine in the sense that his God sent the pre-human heavenly Jesus to Earth for us.
That is also why Jesus directed those hate-filled Jews to Psalms 82:6 at John 10:34.
Those Jews charged Jesus with blasphemy for Jesus saying, " I am the Son of God " at John 10:36 B
 
U

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
calm said:
Only Jesus is the visible God.
Click to expand...
Since No man can see God and live, then Jesus is No visible God - John 1:18; 1 John 4:12; Exodus 33:20.
Even the heavenly resurrected ascended-to-heaven still thinks he has a God over him - Revelation 3:12.

Even before doubting Thomas spoke, Jesus earlier already said the words found at John 20:17.
Often on TV in front of a reporter a person exclaims, "Oh, my God" and we know the reporter is Not God.
So, Thomas did Not have to be directly address Jesus as his God, just as the woman of 1 Kings 3:26 did Not mean the king was Lord God. Also, both words Lord and God are titles - Psalms 110.
 
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