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Is it Paul's confirmation that he used to lie?

W

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
I see it is about all Gods Messengers. Thus applicable to Abraham, Moses, Jesus the Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah. Just to name a few.

Regards Tony
Click to expand...


Reading the wonders of how the Messiah is
high and lifted up' in Isaiah 52 and shuts the mouths of Kings is awesome

But then again Psalm 36:1 says how sin speaks deep into the soul of the wicked
and somehow moves his people from rebellious in the start of Isaiah to holy at the end.

so it takes a pretty awesome savior to rescue us from sin. does it not?
 
TransmutingSoul

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
whirlingmerc said:
Reading the wonders of how the Messiah is high and lifted up' in Isaiah 52 and shuts the mouths of Kings is awesome

But then again Psalm 36:1 says how sin speaks deep into the soul of the wicked

so it takes a pretty awesome savior to rescue us from sin. does it not?
Click to expand...

Yes it does, but again it is our free will to search and find if we have been given that guidance. Thank God for 'Christ', an everlasting name that shows us that it is God that Annoints His chosen Messenger and that the earthly name given to these prophets / messengers should not become a veil.

Baha'u'llah wrote to all the Kings and Rulers, all religious divines and all peoples of the world.

A lot of that is contained in this collection of Tablets in the 'Summons of the Lord of Hosts'.

The Summons of the Lord of Hosts | Bahá’í Reference Library

It is a powerful message, calling all Humanity back to our One God. It is the Message of Baha'u'llah that proves all Messengers of the past.

Regards Tony
 
TransmutingSoul

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
sooda said:
The prophet Isaiah lived in the eighth and early seventh centuries BC. He was from Jerusalem and began his ministry in 740 BC, the year of King Uzziah’s death.
Click to expand...

Now one can consider the verses about the 'First and Last', 'Alpha and Omega', Beginning and End' Christ is Adam, Christ is Abraham, Christ is Jesus, Christ is Muhammad...to name a few.

G_ds Message is timeless and is progressive. All G_ds Mesengers and Prophets had a specific message to give, another piece of the puzzle, finding culmination at the end of ages with the Messiah. That is the 'Glory of God'.

We all have worshiped the same G_d in G_ds many Names and Attributes.

Regards Tony
 
sooda

sooda

Veteran Member
sooda said:
The prophet Isaiah lived in the eighth and early seventh centuries BC. He was from Jerusalem and began his ministry in 740 BC, the year of King Uzziah’s death.
Click to expand...

Most prophecy is written after the fact.. That's why scripture has been amended and redacted so often.
 
paarsurrey

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
whirlingmerc said: ↑
Paul scrupulously tried to keep the law but its like trying to lift yourself up to heaven to go in orbit by your bootstraps. You can expend lots of effort but it ain't gunna happen.

As prelude to the suffering servant passage of Isaiah 53 which describes God's servant rejected, suffering for sins, dying for sins and overcoming death there is a rhetorical play in Isiah 51 where God challenges 'ups who long for righteousness" to "look to Abraham" and every 2nd grader in Sunday school knows Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness.
sooda said:
The Servant's song is about Israel not Jesus. Shame on Christians for hijacking the writings of Isaiah.
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Suffering servant is not specifically about Jesus: as his name is not there.
  1. Had it been specifically about Jesus, Isaiah would have mentioned name of Jesus.
  2. Isaiah would have at least mentioned that the "Suffering Servant" would die a cursed death on the Cross and
  3. that he would resurrect from from the dead and that
  4. he would be hiding from the public and Jews and that
  5. he would travel secretly to Galilee and that
  6. from there he would ascend to heaven, and that
  7. he would sit on the right hand of G-d, and that
  8. somebody (a killer, persecutor, admitted liar and admitted being 'chief among sinners' ) would see a vision and become his Apostle, and that
  9. that somebody import Pagan-Christ concept into the religion of Jewish Suffering Servant.
No, it is not specifically about Jesus son of Mary.
It is in general about all the prophets/messengers of G-d including Jesus.

Regards
 
Last edited:
sooda

sooda

Veteran Member
paarsurrey said:
whirlingmerc said: ↑
Paul scrupulously tried to keep the law but its like trying to lift yourself up to heaven to go in orbit by your bootstraps. You can expend lots of effort but it ain't gunna happen.

As prelude to the suffering servant passage of Isaiah 53 which describes God's servant rejected, suffering for sins, dying for sins and overcoming death there is a rhetorical play in Isiah 51 where God challenges 'ups who long for righteousness" to "look to Abraham" and every 2nd grader in Sunday school knows Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness.

Suffering servant is not specifically about Jesus: as his name is not there.
  1. Had it been specifically about Jesus Isaiah would have mentioned name of Jesus.
  2. Isaiah would have at least mention that the "Suffering Servant" would die a cursed death on the Cross and
  3. that he would resurrect from from the dead and that
  4. he would be hiding from the public and Jews and that
  5. he would travel secretly to Galilee and that
  6. from there he would ascend to heaven, and that
  7. he would sit on the right hand of G-d, and that
  8. somebody (a killer, persecutor, admitted liar and admitted head of the sinners) would see a vision and become his Apostle, and that
  9. that somebody import Pagan-Christ concept into the religion of Jewish Suffering Servant.
It is in general about all the prophets/messengers of G-d including Jesus.

Regards
Click to expand...

Jesus was not despised of men.. By all accounts people flocked to hear him speak.

The Suffering servant was Israel.
 
TransmutingSoul

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
sooda said:
Jesus was not despised of men.. By all accounts people flocked to hear him speak.

The Suffering servant was Israel.
Click to expand...

That respect did not last long then, 3 years and all but a handful had deserted Him, only one knew He was a great spiritual King;)

That is the true Kingship the Jews waited for. Jesus did not need the support of many and also gave His life to show how great a King he was, a Love and popularity that emperors sigh for in vain.

Regards Tony
 
sooda

sooda

Veteran Member
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
That respect did not last long then, 3 years and all but a handful had deserted Him, only one knew He was a great spiritual King;)

That is the true Kingship the Jews waited for. Jesus did not need the support of many and also gave His life to show how great a King he was, a Love and popularity that emperors sigh for in vain.

Regards Tony
Click to expand...

Judah didn't like Jesus... They didn't like anyone from Israel.
 
Samael_Khan

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
paarsurrey said:
"a vision"

Did Jesus see a vision himself?
Did Moses see a vision himself?
Did any truthful prophet/messenger of G-d (before Jesus) see any vision?
If yes, then quote from them. Right, please?

Regards
Click to expand...

Many biblical prophets saw visions (also dreams):

Visions in the Bible

Daniel:
Daniel 10:7 -Now I, Daniel, alone saw the vision, while the men who were with me did not see the vision; nevertheless, a great dread fell on them, and they ran away to hide themselves.

Abraham:
Genesis 15:1 - After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, "Do not fear, Abram, I am a shield to you; Your reward shall be very great."

Nathan:
2 Samuel 7:17 - In accordance with all these words and all this vision, so Nathan spoke to David.

Isaiah:
Isaiah 1:1 - The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz concerning Judah and Jerusalem, which he saw during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

Ezekiel:
Ezekiel 1:1 - Now it came about in the thirtieth year, on the fifth day of the fourth month, while I was by the river Chebar among the exiles, the heavens were opened and I saw visions of God.
 
paarsurrey

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Israel Khan said:
Many biblical prophets saw visions (also dreams):

Visions in the Bible

Daniel:
Daniel 10:7 -Now I, Daniel, alone saw the vision, while the men who were with me did not see the vision; nevertheless, a great dread fell on them, and they ran away to hide themselves.

Abraham:
Genesis 15:1 - After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, "Do not fear, Abram, I am a shield to you; Your reward shall be very great."

Nathan:
2 Samuel 7:17 - In accordance with all these words and all this vision, so Nathan spoke to David.

Isaiah:
Isaiah 1:1 - The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz concerning Judah and Jerusalem, which he saw during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

Ezekiel:
Ezekiel 1:1 - Now it came about in the thirtieth year, on the fifth day of the fourth month, while I was by the river Chebar among the exiles, the heavens were opened and I saw visions of God.
Click to expand...
"Daniel , Abraham , David , Isaiah , Ezekiel "

Were they killers, persecutors, liars, chief of sinners?

Regards
 
Samael_Khan

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
paarsurrey said:
"Daniel , Abraham , David , Isaiah , Ezekiel "

Were they killers, persecutors, liars, chief of sinners?

Regards
Click to expand...

We wouldnt know much about Daniel, Isaiah and Ezekiel because the Bible doesn't speak much about their actions, mostly their visions.

Abraham lied to two leaders, Pharoah and Abimelech, about who Sarah was in relation to him, because he feared they would kill him. Isaac did the same with regards to his wife.

David committed adultery with Bathsheba, and deliberately sent her husband Urriah to the front lines of battle so that he could be killed. Even though he did so, God forgave him because he was repentent.

There are also cases in which God's enemies either spoke to God directly, had prophecies from God or had dreams from God. Cain, the first human murderer, spoke to god directly. I think Balaam also spoke to God directly. Nebuchadnezzar also had prophetic dreams which Daniel had to interpret.

As for being chief of sinners, even Satan, the archenemy of God, speaks to God directly.

So God can speak to his enemies and friends, provide both sides with visions and dreams, so these things have nothing to do with alignment.
 
paarsurrey

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
paarsurrey said:
"Daniel , Abraham , David , Isaiah , Ezekiel "
Were they killers, persecutors, liars, chief of sinners?
Click to expand...

Paul was a killer, persecutor, admitted liar and admitted head of the sinners and cannot be trusted, so I understand he faked a vision and self appointed himself an Apostle of Jesus.

Regards
 
Samael_Khan

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
paarsurrey said:
Paul was a killer, persecutor, admitted liar and admitted head of the sinners and cannot be trusted, so I understand he faked a vision and self appointed himself an Apostle of Jesus.

Regards
Click to expand...

Killing does not make one untrustworthy as if that is the case then God himself cannot be trusted as he killed many people. If Allah is the greatest of deceivers, and deceived the apostles in thinking that Christ dies, then he would also be untrustworthy. Being a sinner wouldn't apply to Allah since he would make the rules so that is irrelevent. So Allah, if he claims to be the greatest of deceivers (Surah 3:54) then he definitely cannot be trusted.

Now I understand that I might be very wrong in the above view because I haven't read the context. But proof texting like I did saying that Allah is the Greatest Deceiver alone leads me to believe he is untrustworthy. I should actually look at the context as to why the Quran says Allah is the greatest of deceivers. So what you would have to do in Paul's case (since you are proof texting his words) is look at the context of what he said. So what I would suggest is you read the whole of Romans, understand the topic discussed and then see why Paul saying that he was a liar is relevent. If you then want your viewpoint to have validity, then you have to summarise the different chapters of the book of Romans. In the same way, if someone wants to criticize the Quran, they would have to be able to summarise each surah to show that they know the context. This applies to any book actually because to not know the context is to be ignorant and untrustworthy in ones interpretation of that book.

In 1 Timothy when Paul says that he is the worst of sinners, he is doing so to emphasise the that even the worst of sinners can be saved.

If Paul is deceiving Christians at the time by appointing himself as an Apostle, then a question in reference to the scriptures make that view problematic:

Of what benefit to a liar is it to admit that they are lying and the worst of sinners? If a person wants to start a false religion, of what benefit is it to admit that they lie? Why would anybody accept them as a prophet if they admit to lying?
 
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