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The Christian Dark Ages of Europe

Audie

Veteran Member
Well technically natural philosophy, no one really did science until 18th/19th C. It's not meant as a semantic trick though.

In layman's terms, yes people did science, and, despite the popular assumption it wasn't repressed.

I didnt think there was any semantic trick intended.

Of course, people have done "science" in this or that
form, forever.

I wonder what sort of natural phil was being done in the
dark ages.

Re t he church, it has of course had and still has
a mixed bag of positive and negative effects
on society.

As for popular assumption, there is also the one
about how Christianity was the source and inspiration
for science.
 
I wonder what sort of natural phil was being done in the
dark ages.

No one really uses the term Dark Ages anymore, but the Middle Ages saw significant 'scientific' advances, the same as any other period, particularly in the areas of maths and empiricism.

Oxford Calculators - Wikipedia
Roger Bacon - Wikipedia

As for popular assumption, there is also the one
about how Christianity was the source and inspiration
for science.

It was certainly a source, but obviously not the source.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Jesus does not command us to do good works to be saved, He commands those who are saved to do good works.
Catholicism, Orthodoxy and more traditional leaning Anglicanism teach that salvation is a process that the soul goes through to reach God, not some one-time contractual event, which is a much more recent concept made up by Evangelicals. Following the commands of Jesus is part of the journey of salvation. I've heard it expressed as "I was saved, I am being saved and I will be saved", as it is a continuing unfolding event. The original Christians were very mystical and that tradition is retained in much of Orthodoxy.

So, basically, you're looking at the subject completely wrong through a false dichotomy.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Why does you church apparently teach you to ignore what's actually found in the Bible, such as I posted in post #75? Maybe you should seek out a denomination that actually teaches what the Bible says on this and other things. Basically what they are teaching you is the position that the "Goats" were not doing in the Parable of the Sheep & Goats (Matthew 25) that Jesus condemned. They believed some things about Jesus, but not fully in Jesus.

That's like saying "I believe in Jesus but I don't have to do what he says", which is the position that the "Goats" took in Jesus' "Parable of the Sheep & Goats" (Matthew 25) who Jesus condemned. Instead, let me recommend that you find a church that teaches the full Gospel, as most churches do.

I never said we shouldn't do or should do anything--in my prior post, I mentioned what Jesus COMMANDS Christians to do!

The issue is salvation comes through Jesus's behavior on the cross, and our trust in Him, rather than our behavior. Consider it this way for a moment? As I understand the gospel IMHO?

No one disagrees with the gospel’s logic of perfection vs. imperfection:

1) Ask someone (outside RF, of course!), “Are you, like me, morally imperfect, and you disobey your inner voice?”

2) After their “Sure!” say “If there’s a Heaven or utopia [long pause] we can’t go! If I hurt your feelings in Heaven or vice versa, it’s not Heaven. How can imperfect people get to Heaven?” People usually respond, “Do you have a solution?”

3) Say “The solution is a person. The Bible explains that Jesus Christ, being God, innocent and perfect, switched places with us on the cross. He died a horrible death by torture to take our sin, guilt and shame, our imperfection. He then rose from the dead, and as the Bible says, “God loved the world in this way--He gave His Son [I hold one hand up], so whoever trusts Him [I raise my other hand] shall not perish but has eternal life [I fold the fingers of my hands together].” (Trust is clearer than “believe” for John 3:16.) Put another way, “God made Jesus, who was perfect, to be imperfect [I cross my arms over each other] for us, that we who are imperfect might become as perfect as God.”” (2 Corinthians 5:21)

The logical problems I see (feel free to disagree with me):

1) If you are saying the full gospel includes my own behavior, how many behaviors must I fulfill to be saved?

2) How come most Christians don't do behavior anywhere near the incredible standards of the Sermon on the Mount, for example, someone forces me to march one mile carrying their load, and I smile and walk a second mile voluntarily--is that salvation?

3) Imperfect people cannot live in a utopia, so do we need mere forgiveness from the cross or also, transformation from the cross? And if so, how much transformation is needed? Because we can be Christians for millennia yet still sin...
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
1) If you are saying the full gospel includes my own behavior, how many behaviors must I fulfill to be saved?
It is not our role to judge that, thus Jesus' statement of "judge ye not...".

2) How come most Christians don't do behavior anywhere near the incredible standards of the Sermon on the Mount, for example, someone forces me to march one mile carrying their load, and I smile and walk a second mile voluntarily--is that salvation?
What other people may or may not do is not under our control, but I do believe we need to speak up for doing God's will the best each of us can and then let God do the judging.

3) Imperfect people cannot live in a utopia, so do we need mere forgiveness from the cross or also, transformation from the cross? And if so, how much transformation is needed? Because we can be Christians for millennia yet still sin...
Again, that's for God to decide.

IMO, it is our role as Christians to lead a moral life as best we can in the light of the Gospel, and to also encourage others to do the same. "Rocking-chair religion", whereas we may believe we're "saved" just because we have some p.c. beliefs about Jesus, is not an option for us if we intend to possibly be saved ourselves, and that is the message Jesus' passed on to us in the Parable of the Sheep & Goats. The "Goats" had some p.c. beliefs about Jesus but didn't put them into action: Matthew 25[44] Then they also will answer, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?'
[45] Then he will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.'
[46] And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Catholicism, Orthodoxy and more traditional leaning Anglicanism teach that salvation is a process that the soul goes through to reach God, not some one-time contractual event, which is a much more recent concept made up by Evangelicals. Following the commands of Jesus is part of the journey of salvation. I've heard it expressed as "I was saved, I am being saved and I will be saved", as it is a continuing unfolding event. The original Christians were very mystical and that tradition is retained in much of Orthodoxy.

So, basically, you're looking at the subject completely wrong through a false dichotomy.

Since I find the salvation-as-trust concept in both testaments, I would say it predates the sects you cited by some 1,500 years.

And why can I NEVER find ONE PERSON who can tell me EXACTLY which behaviors I must do, to what degree, how often, to be "on the journey of salvation"?
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Since I find the salvation-as-trust concept in both testaments, I would say it predates the sects you cited by some 1,500 years.

And why can I NEVER find ONE PERSON who can tell me EXACTLY which behaviors I must do, to what degree, how often, to be "on the journey of salvation"?
Well, that's miraculous because no one seemed to notice it before Evangelicals came up with it in the past few hundred years or so.

You just do your best to follow the teachings of Jesus and imitate him, and repent when you fail. Don't know what's so hard to understand about this. I must echo @metis' advice that you find a church that actually teaches the Bible since whatever one you're in now obviously doesn't.
 

Zita

Solitary Eclectic Witch
You are deliberately wearing blinders. Muslim Spain was a golden age for Judaism.. They had garbage collection, street lights, piped in water for baths.

They had colleges and universities .. and worked side by side to translate and preserve writings in science, medicine, navigation and astronomy.

My ancestors in Europe still weren't bathing, but they were painting themselves blue.


Golden age of Muslim Spain
The Golden Age. The Muslim period in Spain is often described as a 'golden age' of learning where libraries, colleges, public baths were established and literature, poetry and architecture flourished. Both Muslims and non-Muslims made major contributions to this flowering of culture.
BBC - Religions - Islam: Muslim Spain (711-1492)
www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/spain_1.shtml[/QUOTI
I not to lomg ago read up on darksiade of christiany it was terrible,they torue killed mutilaated women,accused regural woemnn of being witches,did you know that the whlething of witches came from this since I am a witch since 6years,I found that they littely made up a theory and defination of witches themselvs and then taught itt in church,before this a good witch was accepte and magic.
any wo
The Christian Dark Ages of Europe - humanreligions.info
www.humanreligions.info/the_dark_ages.html
“ After the many long centuries of the dark ages, by the 18th century there was a growing movement in a Europe that was learning from its past mistakes: religion was increasingly being seen as positively harmful ...

Excerpt:



In Europe, the 'Dark Ages' refers to the barriers to human intellectual and moral development thrown up by a Christianity"

….. especially from the 4th century onwards. After the collapse of the Roman Empire, the Catholic Church stood as the most stable centre of European power and under its dominant influence science and scholarship was all but destroyed, replaced with Church dogma and doctrine, violently enforced6.

Philosophical works were burned and lost, medicine and psychology set back hundreds of years2,7,8. In some areas of knowledge, over one thousand years of Human development was lost and education became controlled by the clergy and was often limited to them alone3,9. The entire Middle Ages was subject to Christianity"
9.

During this time, the Arab world carried the torch of knowledge and surpassed Europe in its understanding of philosophy, mathematics, and the sciences in general10,11. Europe slowly emerged from the dark age amidst continued widespread horror at the abuses of the Church, and a gradual trickle of intellectuals and early scientists emerged from the 12th century. Although they were mostly imprisoned and tortured by Christianity"

continued at the link with extensive footnotes

The Christian Dark Ages of Europe




















I actually read a book on the whole darkside of Christianity and the church history.. It was awful, I actually had no idea. There killed masses people.The Church was out of control,Dogma was at a all time high, and the way degraded women was horrible!! Did you know the Church got together and literally created the makings of a witch would be along with a created version of devil worshippers.but the subject of the great witch hunts ,mean something to me because i have been a witch since 6 years old.I was so shocked to learn that the church created witches from regular women, if you were a wise old women who could create medicine out of herbs and berries and people got well, they were accused of witchcraft because it was said to be magic. if someone had the intuition and could tell someone what had happened and it was accurate even if she wasn't there and gave advice to warn that person of something bad to come and it saved the person, she was accused of witchcraft said it was fortune telling no the gift of God,lf she was a beautiful women with a nice body and attracted men, she was accused of a witch because she aroused men.women who they suspected ,would strip off and search their body, if they had moles,birthmarks,freckles or age spots anywhere on their body,The Church men said they were marks of the devil,and they had to die.Every old woman with a wrinkled face, a furrowed brow, a hairy lip, a squint eye, a squeaking voice, or a scolding tongue, having a rugged coat on her back, a skull-cap on her head, a spindle in her hand, and a Cat by her side, is not only s
if she made and burned candles she was a witch.If she told of things of past or future through home made cards she was a witch, all the methods these women used to help anyone for the good, got turned into it must be bad, and from the spirit of the devil.They even said the women who helped deliver babies were witches and it was said the childbirth is disgusting and foul and birth mother and baby had to go get purifier by the church, it got so bad that when anything went wrong in the towns, it was because of the witches. the lead men in the church would secretly call on these witches to help them with magic to get help on various things in secretly until they got caught, after that all witches were tortured for hours hours until death and if they didn't die doing torture they were burned a live at the stake,until death.they killed what name they had given women who could do special things "witches " 2 whole villages ,this went on for a very long time. Killing thousands of what they had named them Some made sure they were incomplete privacy to do there work and making supplies to heal.it was from that ,that witches got together to form a coven and be in total secrecy so they wouldn't be killed.and that's how witches had to go under ground not to be found out so they could live. Giving the world the wrong idea by saying bad evil witches, and every tool they used for good was deemed evil and of the devil.this is were divination was deemed a sin,and from the devil ,cause they said God was in Heaven and did not involve himself with earth that the devil was the only ruler on earth so that spiritual assistance couldn't come from God it had to come from the devil!! remembering all the time that is was the church creating this image and doctrine so that they could keep the Christians under complete control,therefore going to no one for anything but the church.they made doctors from the church that developed strange ways of healing.one method was called "bleeding" where they would cut several parts of the body and just let the blood drain out said to get rid of diseases ,this method were killing men, they stopped it after awhile.I know I read a different witch means wise woman, wow just think ,the christian&the church created the name after creating us,then killed us , i counted it was 368,1000,900,600,and a uncounted amount when they destroyed those 2 villages.Wow, that's a whole whole lot..and very unnecessary.But that's history
 

Zita

Solitary Eclectic Witch
No particular reason to call it "Dark Ages"..

Did you read the article or just jump in?

The Catholic church was opposed to education, medicine and science… and was quite corrupt. They did need loot which is the reason for the Crusades, Inquisition, and Conquistadors.

And then...

The burning times. A frenzy of witch-hunts took place during this time in Europe, mostly in German-speaking parts, with an estimated 60,000 people put to death. In mainland Europe and Scotland they burned them, with the peak period between 1580 and 1662 often referred to as The Burning Times.
BBC NEWS | UK | Magazine | The burning times
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/8334055.stm
I don;t understand why people have absolutely no rise or feel its important,I got a lot of crazy posts, when I started"Christianity has a very dark side?Has it changed must.and people just acted cool or took up for it found no importance at. Thanks for creating this thread
 

sooda

Veteran Member
I don;t understand why people have absolutely no rise or feel its important,I got a lot of crazy posts, when I started"Christianity has a very dark side?Has it changed must.and people just acted cool or took up for it found no importance at. Thanks for creating this thread

You're welcome.

Most religions have a dark side... or a political side... Look at the awful politics of first century Palestine.. or the history of the Catholic Church or even the ugly side of the Protestant Reformation.

Most "Isms" have a dark side.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
I actually read a book on the whole darkside of Christianity and the church history.. It was awful, I actually had no idea. There killed masses people.The Church was out of control,Dogma was at a all time high, and the way degraded women was horrible!! Did you know the Church got together and literally created the makings of a witch would be along with a created version of devil worshippers.but the subject of the great witch hunts ,mean something to me because i have been a witch since 6 years old.

.I was so shocked to learn that the church created witches from regular women, if you were a wise old women who could create medicine out of herbs and berries and people got well, they were accused of witchcraft because it was said to be magic. if someone had the intuition and could tell someone what had happened and it was accurate even if she wasn't there and gave advice to warn that person of something bad to come and it saved the person, she was accused of witchcraft said it was fortune telling no the gift of God,lf she was a beautiful women with a nice body and attracted men, she was accused of a witch because she aroused men.women who they suspected ,would strip off and search their body, if they had moles,birthmarks,freckles or age spots anywhere on their body,The Church men said they were marks of the devil,and they had to die.


Every old woman with a wrinkled face, a furrowed brow, a hairy lip, a squint eye, a squeaking voice, or a scolding tongue, having a rugged coat on her back, a skull-cap on her head, a spindle in her hand, and a Cat by her side, is not only s

if she made and burned candles she was a witch.If she told of things of past or future through home made cards she was a witch, all the methods these women used to help anyone for the good, got turned into it must be bad, and from the spirit of the devil.

They even said the women who helped deliver babies were witches and it was said the childbirth is disgusting and foul and birth mother and baby had to go get purifier by the church, it got so bad that when anything went wrong in the towns, it was because of the witches. the lead men in the church would secretly call on these witches to help them with magic to get help on various things in secretly until they got caught, after that all witches were tortured for hours hours until death and if they didn't die doing torture they were burned a live at the stake,until death.they killed what name they had given women who could do special things "witches " 2 whole villages ,this went on for a very long time.

Killing thousands of what they had named them Some made sure they were incomplete privacy to do there work and making supplies to heal.it was from that ,that witches got together to form a coven and be in total secrecy so they wouldn't be killed.and that's how witches had to go under ground not to be found out so they could live. Giving the world the wrong idea by saying bad evil witches, and every tool they used for good was deemed evil and of the devil.this is were divination was deemed a sin,and from the devil ,cause they said God was in Heaven and did not involve himself with earth that the devil was the only ruler on earth so that spiritual assistance couldn't come from God it had to come from the devil!! remembering all the time that is was the church creating this image and doctrine so that they could keep the Christians under complete control,therefore going to no one for anything but the church.they made doctors from the church that developed strange ways of healing.one method was called "bleeding" where they would cut several parts of the body and just let the blood drain out said to get rid of diseases ,this method were killing men, they stopped it after awhile.I know I read a different witch means wise woman, wow just think ,the christian&the church created the name after creating us,then killed us , i counted it was 368,1000,900,600,and a uncounted amount when they destroyed those 2 villages.Wow, that's a whole whole lot..and very unnecessary.But that's history

Great post... Deserves its own thread.

Malleus Maleficarum. The Malleus Maleficarum, usually translated as the Hammer of Witches, is the best known and the most important treatise on witchcraft. It was written by the discredited Catholic clergyman Heinrich Kramer (under his Latinized name Henricus Institoris) and first published in the German city of Speyer in 1487.
Malleus Maleficarum - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malleus_Maleficarum
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
I don;t understand why people have absolutely no rise or feel its important,I got a lot of crazy posts, when I started"Christianity has a very dark side?Has it changed must.and people just acted cool or took up for it found no importance at. Thanks for creating this thread
Probably because a lot of it isn't true. Same with the "burning times" myth that some modern Neopagans clang to as an origin story.
 

Zita

Solitary Eclectic Witch
You're welcome.

Most religions have a dark side... or a political side... Look at the awful politics of first century Palestine.. or the history of the Catholic Church or even the ugly side of the Protestant Reformation.

Most "Isms" have a dark side.

yep,to me I like learning the history of anything I'm thinking about being a part of,because I believe ,some may not. But when something is first formed and talked about and organized there is a certain spirit that covers over to stay,so later after awhile or years to come that spirit may have changed,may still be hovering over,or the same.So you have to pay attention to how you feel,and learn all you can and then you can make a good choice if you want to be a part of it.Like I said,this is just my belief and it hasn't failed me yet, I've been a witch since 6 years old, and my family religion was Disciples Of Christ and when I would be in church and listening to preacher, I use to get a sort of aggravated feeling and say to myself I am different from these people, why do I feel this way, at 6 I didn't have a clue,but as got older it got to point I wasn't really trying to pay attention to preacher cause I didn't agree, and the bible I couldn't even take serious, it just seemed so fake, and I got along with most other Christians but mostly I ended up debating with them,as I began getting more intuned with myself and started embasing a lot of different stuff I realized I was so different from the rest I was a witch, a real witch, and I left Christianity and left religion and started studying different things for myself and Oh my goodness, I felt better and was happier and begin to grow in areas of my spirituality like never before, I knew how general religion felt about witches and etc,even new age practices too, so that's why I am a Solitary Eclectic Witch which means I learn and practice alone no part of a croven and I am not in a particular group or religion or do everything all the others may do I choose from the things that I feel that can help me grow spiritual and more, But after reading the dark sides of Christianity and The Church it makes perfect sense of my feelings all these many years, they is that same spirit toned down that was first there in the beginning and seeing how they felt about us ,did us and tortured and killed us.When actually we were meant to do the same thing help and assistant our fellow man.But no one took the time to learn the real us.and that is still the issue today .Oh well some things will never change,and it's ok. You gotta do what's for you.
 

Zita

Solitary Eclectic Witch
Great post... Deserves its own thread.

Malleus Maleficarum. The Malleus Maleficarum, usually translated as the Hammer of Witches, is the best known and the most important treatise on witchcraft. It was written by the discredited Catholic clergyman Heinrich Kramer (under his Latinized name Henricus Institoris) and first published in the German city of Speyer in 1487.
Malleus Maleficarum - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malleus_Maleficarum
Thanks
 

Zita

Solitary Eclectic Witch
Rome was spread too thin and had too many slaves when Christianity arrived.. Look at the barbarian hordes and the extent of the Roman Empire.


Medieval Book Production and Monastic Life – Dartmouth ...
https://sites.dartmouth.edu/.../2016/05/24/medieval-book-production-and-monastic-life

People have to remember all things dont tell all things you have to research various materials and a open mind cause you may come up on things you find hard to believe like yes there was indeed The Christian Church Darkside. You will be shocked.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
yep,to me I like learning the history of anything I'm thinking about being a part of,because I believe ,some may not. But when something is first formed and talked about and organized there is a certain spirit that covers over to stay,so later after awhile or years to come that spirit may have changed,may still be hovering over,or the same.So you have to pay attention to how you feel,and learn all you can and then you can make a good choice if you want to be a part of it.Like I said,this is just my belief and it hasn't failed me yet, I've been a witch since 6 years old, and my family religion was Disciples Of Christ and when I would be in church and listening to preacher, I use to get a sort of aggravated feeling and say to myself I am different from these people, why do I feel this way, at 6 I didn't have a clue,but as got older it got to point I wasn't really trying to pay attention to preacher cause I didn't agree, and the bible I couldn't even take serious, it just seemed so fake, and I got along with most other Christians but mostly I ended up debating with them,as I began getting more intuned with myself and started embasing a lot of different stuff I realized I was so different from the rest I was a witch, a real witch, and I left Christianity and left religion and started studying different things for myself and Oh my goodness, I felt better and was happier and begin to grow in areas of my spirituality like never before, I knew how general religion felt about witches and etc,even new age practices too, so that's why I am a Solitary Eclectic Witch which means I learn and practice alone no part of a croven and I am not in a particular group or religion or do everything all the others may do I choose from the things that I feel that can help me grow spiritual and more, But after reading the dark sides of Christianity and The Church it makes perfect sense of my feelings all these many years, they is that same spirit toned down that was first there in the beginning and seeing how they felt about us ,did us and tortured and killed us.When actually we were meant to do the same thing help and assistant our fellow man.But no one took the time to learn the real us.and that is still the issue today .Oh well some things will never change,and it's ok. You gotta do what's for you.

I knew a witch once named Lewis Vandercar.. .. or Van Der Car. He was also an artist and built one of those geodesic dome houses. It was very cool with a tree growing up the center and an astronomy lab and telescope on bump out on the third floor. He was in his 70s when I knew him and fit as a fiddle.
 

Zita

Solitary Eclectic Witch
Something wrong with the chronology.

The term "Dark Ages", which as Shiranui points out is now out of favour as it implies a false picture of civilisation at that time, was generally applied to the period immediately after the fall of the Western Roman empire, say up to 900AD. Citing events from 1600 is at least 500 years out.

But in any case, This is what Wiki has to say about the idea:
" As the accomplishments of the era came to be better understood in the 18th and 20th centuries, scholars began restricting the "Dark Ages" appellation to the Early Middle Ages (c. 5th–10th century),[6][7][8] and now scholars also reject its usage in this period.[9] The majority of modern scholars avoid the term altogether due to its negative connotations, finding it misleading and inaccurate.[10][11][12] The pejorative meaning remains in use,[1][2][13] typically in popular culture which often mischaracterises the Middle Ages as a time of unchecked violence and backwardness.[1"

I've attended Easter Mass at Charlemagne's octagonal chapel in Aachen, built in 800AD. It left me in no doubt this was a time of serious artistic and architectural accomplishment in Northern Europe.
Yep still got them blinder on!!
 

Zita

Solitary Eclectic Witch
I knew a witch once named Lewis Vandercar.. .. or Van Der Car. He was also an artist and built one of those geodesic dome houses. It was very cool with a tree growing up the center and an astronomy lab and telescope on bump out on the third floor. He was in his 70s when I knew him and fit as a fiddle.
oh wow that's cool,hope I'm that way at that age,it's looking pretty good so far.;)
 

Zita

Solitary Eclectic Witch
The above is a prime example example of my last post.

Maybe do some serious studying instead of making blanket condemnations of a particular denomination while refusing to look carefully into your own. Matthew 7[5] You hypocrite! First, remove the beam out of your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother’s eye.

I totally agree,it's easy to look over what you don't wanta see and of course to realize you are not correct
 

Zita

Solitary Eclectic Witch
Again, nothing in the period we (you) were talking about, viz. the period 450-1100 (post 41).

The Middle Ages was a particularly violent and bloody period in English history. The Middle Ages is a period that is full of warfare and violence, and in this article we will look at some of the most notable wars.

Notable Middle Ages Battles

There are a number of key battles and campaigns during the Middle Ages. These include:
Written by Simon Newman

History - Middle Ages

  • The Battle of Hastings

  • The Crusades

  • The Barons War

  • The Hundred Years War

  • The Wars of the Roses
These battles, although bloody, led to key developments in technology, weaponry s well as advancements in both defensive and offensive structures and weaponry, changes to law and much more.
 
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