Anti-immigration People are Sodomites.

Darkforbid said:

What that word for people who promote risk like it's safe

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Mr. President

whirlingmerc said:

You think it's not?

One clue is what's on net flicks

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Nice specific, checkable claim. Not in any way vague or shiftable.

The Reverend Bob said:

but I don't believe Netflix is the cause

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But is has new shows that cover different material than the idealised stuff I half remember from my youth!

siti said:

Mr. President

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Good, but there's an old English word! Must be weed induced memory lost

Darkforbid said:

Must be weed induced memory lost

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You should lay off it.

siti said:

You should lay off it.

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No, I'm English we're genetically adapted to it

(The Britishempire)

Deeje said:

I would not normally enter into a thread like this but since you have piqued my curiosity, I would like to address your OP.

In suggesting that the crime of the people of Sodom was "inhospitality, pride, gluttony and apathy and treading on the poor and needy. Not homosexuality." I can only ask how you can come to such a conclusion after reading the whole account in Genesis 19.

From the Tanach....Genesis 19:4-8...

"4 When they had not yet retired, and the people of the city, the people of Sodom, surrounded the house, both young and old, the entire populace from every end [of the city].

5 And they called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, and let us be intimate with them."

6 And Lot came out to them to the entrance, and he shut the door behind him.

7 And he said, "My brethren, please do not do evil.

8 Behold now I have two daughters who were not intimate with a man. I will bring them out to you, and do to them as you see fit; only to these men do nothing, because they have come under the shadow of my roof."

So what does this mean....they wanted to be "intimate" with them? It was obviously an "evil" kind of intimacy because Lot offered his daughters to them in order to protect his divine visitors. Those who came under the shelter of a man's roof were assured of his hospitality and protection.

In offering his virgin daughters (who had never been intimate with a man) Lot showed us the kind of intimacy that the people demanded....not the natural kind with women but the depraved kind involved with homosexual gang rape.

With regard to the scripture in Ezekiel 16:49, you should have included verse 50.

"49 Behold this was the iniquity of Sodom your sister: pride, abundance of bread, and careless ease were hers and her daughters', and she did not strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
50 And they became haughty and did abomination before Me, and I removed them when I saw." (Tanach)

Does God consider being inhospitable or neglect for the needy to be an "abomination"?

According to Strongs, "abomination" in Hebrew is.... tôwʻêbah, to-ay-baw'; or תֹּעֵבַה tôʻêbah; feminine active participle of H8581; properly, something disgusting (morally)"

I do not see anything "morally disgusting" in what you suggest was their behavior.....do you?

Regarding the scripture in Matthew

Jude 3-7 makes some interesting clarifications also.

"Beloved ones, although I was making every effort to write you about the salvation we hold in common, I found it necessary to write you to urge you to put up a hard fight for the faith that was once for all time delivered to the holy ones. 4 My reason is that certain men have slipped in among you who were long ago appointed to this judgment by the Scriptures; they are ungodly men who turn the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for brazen [shameless] conduct and who prove false to our only owner and Lord, Jesus Christ.

5 Although you are fully aware of all of this, I want to remind you that Jehovah, having saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those not showing faith. 6 And the angels who did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place, he has reserved with eternal bonds in dense darkness for the judgment of the great day. 7 In the same manner, Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah and the cities around them also gave themselves over to gross sexual immorality and pursued unnatural fleshly desires; they are placed before us as a warning example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire."

By describing the Sodomites as those engaging in "gross sexual immorality" we find the Greek words...
"ekporneuō" which means "give one's self over to fornication" and it is described as "gross.

It also mentions "unnatural fleshly desires" or as some translation render it "strange flesh". That is "heteros" and it means..."another: i.e. one not of the same nature, form, class, kind, different" .
So with all that in mind....what you are suggesting about the people of Sodom is clearly incorrect.

What does the word "sodomy" mean after all? According to Wiki.....
"The precise sexual acts meant by the term sodomy are rarely spelled out in the law, but are typically understood by courts to include any sexual act deemed to be "unnatural" or immoral. Sodomy typically includes anal sex, oral sex, and bestiality."

So.....I feel that you are flogging a dead horse here.....

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Yes, Deeje there are many things that are found to be morally disgusting in besides fornication (ekporneuō), and promiscuity such as:
Those who are proud like the Sodomites were as per Ezekiel, and swift to mischief as in Genesis
A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
Proverbs 6:17-19

Economic exploitation:
A false balance is abomination to the Lord: but a just weight is his delight.
Proverbs 11:1

Hypocrisy is an
abomination
The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord: but the prayer of the upright is his delight.
Proverbs 15:8

Pride:
Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the Lord: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished.
Proverbs 16:5

Perverting justice:
He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord.
Proverbs 17:15

Oppressing the poor and the needy:
Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination
Ezekiel 18:12

Usury
Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.
Ezekiel 18:13

In Isaiah 1 , when Isaiah calls Judah by the name of Sodom, what sins does he call them out for? For oppressing the poor, for economic exploitation and for ignoring the needy. In Isaiah 3 , he again compares them to Sodom and what for because they flaunt there wealth and are concerned with nothing. In Isaiah 13 he compares Babylon to Sodom, why? Because they are filled with pride. So far, in the two Prophets I have cited it is pride, economic exploitation and apathy that show up as the sins of Sodom. In Jeremiah when he compare Jerusalem to Sodom he names several sins and none of them are homosexuality.

I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness; they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.
Jeremiah 23:14

In Amos 4 the reason given has to why Samaria was to be destroy just like Sodom was that:
Hear this word, ye kine of Bashan, that are in the mountain of Samaria, which oppress the poor, which crush the needy, which say to their masters, Bring, and let us drink.
Amos 4:4.

When the Prophets reference Sodom some major themes come up, they associate Sodom with pride, apathy, economic exploitation and ignoring or outright hostility towards the poor and the needy. So why no mention of homosexuality if that was the main theme in the Genesis account? They don't associate it with that because culturally they have always associated Sodom with cruelty, pride and inhospitality. The men of Sodom didn't want to rape those men because the men of Sodom were homosexuals, they wanted to rape them because rape is an act of violence, they wanted to hurt and humiliate them, they wanted to dominate and exploit them, This is the same dynamic one would find in a prison were inmate rapes inmate not for sexual gratification but to kill the spirit of another and dominate them.

The sin of Sodom is cruelty, pride and inhospitality and apathy just like the text says. Now if we look at the New Testament or Greek Scriptures we find that Jesus mentions Sodom a few times but when he does does he associate Sodom with homosexuality? No, he associates with disbelief and inhospitality.

The Reverend Bob said:

When the Prophets reference Sodom some major themes come up, they associate Sodom with pride, apathy, economic exploitation and ignoring or outright hostility towards the poor and the needy. So why no mention of homosexuality if that was the main theme in the Genesis account?

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No doubt that the Sodomites were as wicked, if not more wicked than the Canaanites. But the incident concerning Lot's angelic visitors was that they wanted to be "intimate" with the men in Lot's house.....the same kind of 'intimacy' that Lot's daughters had not yet experienced. They only became violent when Lot refused them access to his visitors and offered them females instead.

The Reverend Bob said:

They don't associate it with that because culturally they have always associated Sodom with cruelty, pride and inhospitality. The men of Sodom didn't want to rape those men because the men of Sodom were homosexuals, they wanted to rape them because rape is an act of violence, they wanted to hurt and humiliate them, they wanted to dominate and exploit them, This is the same dynamic one would find in a prison were inmate rapes inmate not for sexual gratification but to kill the spirit of another and dominate them.

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I have do doubt that they were all of those things.....but that does not alter the fact that they wanted to sodomize the men who came into Lot's house. An act of violence it would certainly have been. But the visitors took care of it themselves and rescued Lot and his family (minus the intended son-in-law) and then he ended up losing his wife due to her disobedience.

What normal man wants to rape complete strangers, and males at that? Why are you defending them? God wiped them off the face of the earth. They were disgusting to him.

The Reverend Bob said:

The sin of Sodom is cruelty, pride and inhospitality and apathy just like the text says. Now if we look at the New Testament or Greek Scriptures we find that Jesus mentions Sodom a few times but when he does does he associate Sodom with homosexuality? No, he associates with disbelief and inhospitality.

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You make them sound "naughty"......like God should have given them a smack on the wrist....yet God didn't use that word to describe these men. "Abomination" as I explained .....
"According to Strongs, "abomination" in Hebrew is.... tôwʻêbah, to-ay-baw'; or תֹּעֵבַה tôʻêbah; feminine active participle of H8581; properly, something disgusting (morally)"

If Sodom was not a city inclined to practice all manner of morally disgusting behavior, then why is the word sodomy (the dictionary definition meaning any degrading sexual practice, all of which were outlined in God's law) associated with that city? Sodomy is inextricably associated with anal intercourse, which is a morally disgusting act according to scripture. The sacred seed of life was not meant to be placed in a sewerage outlet. It is completely disrespectful to the God who created sex to be an honorable and intimate way for married people to produce a family. Any homosexual act is morally disgusting to the Creator, just as any immoral act between heterosexual couples is. Not married? No sex. Simple.

Jude 7 says..."In the same manner, Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah and the cities around them also gave themselves over to gross sexual immorality and pursued unnatural fleshly desires; they are placed before us as a warning example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire."

No need to revisit all this, its already been explained. I still think you are flogging a dead horse.

Darkforbid said:

Not exactly a evolutionarily success story

(What that word for people who promote risk like it's safe)

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What are you talking about? Bonobos have done fine until humans began destroying their habitats.

Deeje said:

No doubt that the Sodomites were as wicked, if not more wicked than the Canaanites. But the incident concerning Lot's angelic visitors was that they wanted to be "intimate" with the men in Lot's house.....the same kind of 'intimacy' that Lot's daughters had not yet experienced. They only became violent when Lot refused them access to his visitors and offered them females instead.



I have do doubt that they were all of those things.....but that does not alter the fact that they wanted to sodomize the men who came into Lot's house. An act of violence it would certainly have been. But the visitors took care of it themselves and rescued Lot and his family (minus the intended son-in-law) and then he ended up losing his wife due to her disobedience.

What normal man wants to rape complete strangers, and males at that? Why are you defending them? God wiped them off the face of the earth. They were disgusting to him.

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I find it bizarre that you read a story about a mob wanting to gang-rape travelers, and you come away with the impression that the worst thing about this is that the rape would have been homosexual.

Deeje said:

They only became violent when Lot refused them access to his visitors and offered them females instead.

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The rape is always violent, there whole intent was violence not consensual sex

Deeje said:

What normal man wants to rape complete strangers, and males at that? Why are you defending them?

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I am not defending them I am telling you what they were. They were violent and inhospitable and cruel. And that is why according the Prophets God wiped them out. Why would a man want to rape another man in such a way? It is obvious. They were living in a extremely oppressive and cruel dog eat dog society much like a prison and like an inmate in a prison in order for you to feel any power you do acts of violence against other people, just to show them you are in power. In order to show you that I am not a punk, I will make you a punk. That's a prisoner's mentality, the prison rapist doesn't think of himself as homosexual because he isn't a man having sex with another man, he is having sex with something that he doesn't even consider human nor alive. You are just some thing to be used and dominated. That's probably how the men of Sodom were thinking. Rape is always an act of violence not sexuality. To view rape as a sexual act is some seriously backwards 19th century thinking.

Rape is about power, not sex | Jill Filipovic

Deeje said:

If Sodom was not a city inclined to practice all manner of morally disgusting behavior, then why is the word sodomy (the dictionary definition meaning any degrading sexual practice, all of which were outlined in God's law) associated with that city?

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The term sodomite wasn't associate with homosexuality until after the 1st century AD, as you can see the Prophets associated the sin with economic atrocities, blasphemy and violence. I cited 4 Prophets who all are saying the same thing that the sin was inhospitality and cruelty, the only proof text you have is a mistranslated version of Jude. You can take the Prophets word for it or your own, but there seems to be a consensus with them that it was there viciousness towards others that got them snuffed.

Duke_Leto said:

What are you talking about? Bonobos have done fine until humans began destroying their habitats.

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?
Chimpanzee: widely spread in large numbers

Bonobos: isolated and existing in small numbers

But I agree our greed is destroying them both

Duke_Leto said:

I find it bizarre that you read a story about a mob wanting to gang-rape travelers, and you come away with the impression that the worst thing about this is that the rape would have been homosexual.

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They even give Lot the reason why they were doing this, because they want to show Lot who was boss:

So Lot went out to them through the doorway, shut the door behind him, See now, I have two daughters who have not known a man; please, let me bring them out to you, and you may do to them as you wish; only do nothing to these men, since this is the reason they have come under the shadow of my roof.”

And they said, “Stand back!” Then they said, “This one came in to stay here, and he keeps acting as a judge; now we will deal worse with you than with them.”
Genesis 19:6-9

The Reverend Bob said:

According the Bible the sin of Sodom and the reason for it's destruction was that they weren't very hospitable to the stranger and the sojourner, in fact they were downright hostile towards the strangers and sojourners threatening them with all sort of violence. I need not get into the Genesis account that everyone is familiar with but the Genesis in no way mentions that homosexuality was the reason for Sodom's destruction I think it is apparent within the account why Sodom had to be destroy but Ezekiel clarifies it:

‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.
Ezekiel 16:49

They full of themselves, fat and apathetic. They refuse to help those in need. Does that sound like a certain apathetic nation filled with obese people who don't care one way or the other because damn it "we're number 1!"? Sounds familiar to me. The crime was inhospitality, pride, gluttony and apathy and treading on the poor and needy. Not homosexuality.

But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.
Matthew 11:24

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You are absolutely correct. First, the thing which Jesus said was most important was to love others. He did, also, say to help the poor and needy as you said. It is my firm belief that many who call themselves Christians are not. They do not follow Jesus. I actually figured out that this is the reason the gate is narrow and few will enter. Many people calling themselves Christians will not enter. Their hearts are hardened.

And according to the Pew Research Center, 69% of Latin Americans are Catholic. Over 84% were raised Catholic and 19% are Protestants. So, Latin America is 88% Christian.
This study also reports that "the Catholic Church has experienced net losses from religious switching, as many Latin Americans have joined evangelical Protestant churches or rejected organized religion altogether."
Religion in Latin America

Evidently Latin America has many Evangelical Christians, the same denominations trying to keep them out of the United States.

Since the Bible tells Christians to love one another, the people in the United States who claim to be Christians but try to bar the immigrants are evidently not following Jesus. Therefore, they are not Christians.

I, personally, pray for a change. I believe that there will be a turnaround and God will prevail.

Deeje said:

The sacred seed of life was not meant to be placed in a sewerage outlet.

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This reminds me of a video from Neil deGrasse Tyson criticizing the concept of intelligent design. He mentioned how stupid it was to place an "amusement park" next to a "sewage plant" or somesuch. Lol. Take it up with your god. He also made anal pleasurable for males by placing the prostate there and making it sensitive.

And why is semen sacred? The vast majority of women's eggs end up as waste.

The Reverend Bob said:

According the Bible the sin of Sodom and the reason for it's destruction was that they weren't very hospitable to the stranger and the sojourner, in fact they were downright hostile towards the strangers and sojourners threatening them with all sort of violence. I need not get into the Genesis account that everyone is familiar with but the Genesis in no way mentions that homosexuality was the reason for Sodom's destruction I think it is apparent within the account why Sodom had to be destroy but Ezekiel clarifies it:

‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.
Ezekiel 16:49

They full of themselves, fat and apathetic. They refuse to help those in need. Does that sound like a certain apathetic nation filled with obese people who don't care one way or the other because damn it "we're number 1!"? Sounds familiar to me. The crime was inhospitality, pride, gluttony and apathy and treading on the poor and needy. Not homosexuality.

But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.
Matthew 11:24

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Only if they are from Sodom......

Good Grief

Ezekiel 16 isnt talking about the original Sodom Gods calling Judah Sodom because they were not taking their sin seriously

Try taking a beginners Bible course

I believe "hospitality" is not the reason for the destruction of Sodom et al according to the Bible.

David T said:

Lol THATS PROOF TEXTING BIBLE ABUSE!!!

Although it is DAMN funny! Personally i think they should Outlaw it. And then it would make it meaningful! Atheists would want to read it even.

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I believe one must read on: Ezek: 16:50 They were haughty and did an abomination before me. So I removed them, when I saw it.

Lev 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

whirlingmerc said:

lawlessness wickedness or immorality depending on the translation
but lawlessness seems most often the word of choice in translations

(spell check changed mine type morality by mistake which I fixed)

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I believe wickedness better fits God's attitude towards those who did not have His law.