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What did Jesus Say? For Discussion not Debate.

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Well, that's good. Im trying not to claim anything. I want to keep an open mind.
Slight stomach laugh trying to keep it down. Allow me to summarize. You not only don't know what you're saying, you just like to talk. Again, a slight rumble of laughter.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Slight stomach laugh trying to keep it down. Allow me to summarize. You not only don't know what you're saying, you just like to talk. Again, a slight rumble of laughter.

I am trying to learn. What is funny about that? JWs have a different take than Fundamentalists. Both have a different take than liberal Chritians. Bahai have their own flavor.

Are you proposing that there is a better way to survey diverse beliefs?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I am trying to learn. What is funny about that? JWs have a different take than Fundamentalists. Both have a different take than liberal Chrtians. Bahai have their own flavor.

Are you proposing that there is a better way to survey diverse beliefs?
What are you trying to learn?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
What is most significant?
What is most memorable?
Are there common themes to the verses in red?

Note: I literally have no idea... Excluding sermon on the mount; I am completely ignorant of this subject matter.
You'll get to the subject matter when you start reading the gospels.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Is this what Jesus intended when these words were spoken? Was Jesus speaking about his death? ( assuming the story is true, the quote is accurate, etc... )

note: i have no knowledge of this quote, its context, or the story of Jesus. I literally know nothing.
Try reading the gospel accounts, then you'll have some idea. Then you'll know something and literally not nothing. :)
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Please refer to the OP. If you have no opinion and nothing to offer to this thread, then that is noted.
Do you have an opinion to offer, other than you know nothing and have nothing to offer to this thread?
Is this what Jesus intended when these words were spoken? Was Jesus speaking about his death? ( assuming the story is true, the quote is accurate, etc... )

note: i have no knowledge of this quote, its context, or the story of Jesus. I literally know nothing.
Well, what DO you know? :) Nothing again?
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
@YoursTrue ,

Since you are asking about me, I guess I can share. It seems like you want to tease me, and I give you 100% permission to do so. Feel free to be harsh, blunt, honest, funny. I actually enjoy it.

What do I want to learn?

I want to learn the similarities and differences among all beliefs and non-beliefs. Comparative religion is a hobby; I am not a professional; I am an amateur enthusiast. Emphasis on Amateur; Emphasis on enthusiast.

When asked to describe my beliefs, I choose to describe them as adaptive, organic, and in flux. I do not know where I fit religiously. Anytime I feel like I have found a religious / spiritual home, it doesn't stick. It could be my personality; it could be I am not "cut-out" for organized religion. It could be an asset. It could be a flaw.

My family heritage is Jewish. Both parents, all 4 grandparents. I have a minimal ( but adequate ) Jewish education, but both Parents are Atheists and their desire for me to learn to be "Jewish" felt hollow and insincere. Their Jewish identity was and is bound to Israeli politics, being persecuted in the past and expecting to be persecuted in the future, and pointing out the failures and flaws of Islam and Muslims. None of this made sense to me as a child, and none of it makes sense to me now.

When my daughter was born, I decided that I needed to have a firm grasp of my family's heritage, and I needed to have an alternate, more sincere version of Judaism to deliver as a heritage to her. At the time, I felt it was important to be able to answer her questions better than my parents did, and give her a sense of pride of her heritage in spite of how it was practiced in my home as a child.

What I found as I researched more and more was a beauty and depth to Judaism that I learned to love. I also developed a passion for learning about all religious beliefs and spiritual practices. Perhaps there was a future for me in the field of comparative religion, but that is in the past, and I doubt that this field of study is in my future. Besides, I enjoy learning as an amateur enthusiast. I wonder if making it my profession would somehow diminish my passion for learning.

This is why I have a solid foundation in knowledge of the Old Testament, Jewish Law, and Biblical Hebrew. I spent a short period of time obsessed with Buddhism. But looking back on it, I think I was actually learning Daoism. In the past year, I have been learning a lot about Islam. I think it's fascinating and I very much appreciate learning the similarities between it and Judaism. I have not learned anything about Christianity. It honestly has minimal appeal to me. But that could be simply a matter of my upbringing. It isn't something that I avoid, and most of my high school friends were/are devout Christians.

One thing I want to learn specifically about Christians is, this may sound crazy, is the language. How do Christians speak about their religious beliefs. All religion has Jargon, and this concept of Christian Jargon fascinates me. The words: Faith, Hope, Love, Father, LORD all seem to have deep spiritual impact and consequence to Christians. Also, I am interested in how some Christians speak of Jesus Christ as Jesus. Some as Christ Jesus. This is fascinating to me.

Finally, just like my interest in Islam, I am very much interested in seeing the crossover ( comparing and contrasting ) Judaism, Christianity, Catholicism, and Islam. How are they similar, how are they different. Also understanding the differences among the many denominations of Christianity is very interesting to me.

Maybe what you observed about me that was odd, is that I do not identify as Jewish here, even though I am ( technically ). You probably picked up on this. :) I have my reasons for not identifying as Jewish. And it seems there are at least a handful others who are doing the same; so I don't feel weird about it. People who know Judaism, certainly know that I am Jewish based on my knowledge-base, interests, and writing style. And I have been out'ed a few times. It's not my intention to hide it; but I also feel weird advertising it. I feel like I am very poor example of a Jewish person. And so there is very little point in identifying myself this way. And I feel like it gives me more freedom to be myself without worrying about being a bad role model.

If you have any other questions for me, ( or if you want to roast me a little more :smilingimp::smilingimp: ) don't be shy.

Most sincerely,
 
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YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
@YoursTrue ,

Since you are asking about me, I guess I can share. It seems like you want to tease me, and I give you 100% permission to do so. Feel free to be harsh, blunt, honest, funny. I actually enjoy it.

What do I want to learn?

I want to learn the similarities and differences among all beliefs and non-beliefs. Comparative religion is a hobby; I am not a professional; I am an amateur enthusiast. Emphasis on Amateur; Emphasis on enthusiast.

When asked to describe my beliefs, I choose to describe them as adaptive, organic, and in flux. I do not know where I fit religiously. Anytime I feel like I have found a religious / spiritual home, it doesn't stick. It could be my personality; it could be I am not "cut-out" for organized religion. It could be an asset. It could be a flaw.

My family heritage is Jewish. Both parents, all 4 grandparents. I have a minimal ( but adequate ) Jewish education, but both Parents are Atheists and their desire for me to learn to be "Jewish" felt hollow and insincere. Their Jewish identity was and is bound to Israeli politics, being persecuted in the past and expecting to be persecuted in the future, and pointing out the failures and flaws of Islam and Muslims. None of this made sense to me as a child, and none of it makes sense to me now.

When my daughter was born, I decided that I needed to have a firm grasp of my family's heritage, and I needed to have an alternate, more sincere version of Judaism to deliver as a heritage to her. At the time, I felt it was important to be able to answer her questions better than my parents did, and give her a sense of pride of her heritage in spite of how it was practiced in my home as a child.

What I found as I researched more and more was a beauty and depth to Judaism that I learned to love. I also developed a passion for learning about all religious beliefs and spiritual practices. Perhaps there was a future for me in the field of comparative religion, but that is in the past, and I doubt that this field of study is in my future. Besides, I enjoy learning as an amateur enthusiast. I wonder if making it my profession would somehow diminish my passion for learning.

This is why I have a solid foundation in knowledge of the Old Testament, Jewish Law, and Biblical Hebrew. I spent a short period of time obsessed with Buddhism. But looking back on it, I think I was actually learning Daoism. In the past year, I have been learning a lot about Islam. I think it's fascinating and I very much appreciate learning the similarities between it and Judaism. I have not learned anything about Christianity. It honestly has minimal appeal to me. But that could be simply a matter of my upbringing. It isn't something that I avoid, and most of my high school friends were/are devout Christians.

One thing I want to learn specifically about Christians is, this may sound crazy, is the language. How do Christians speak about their religious beliefs. All religion has Jargon, and this concept of Christian Jargon fascinates me. The words: Faith, Hope, Love, Father, LORD all seem to have deep spiritual impact and consequence to Christians. Also, I am interested in how some Christians speak of Jesus Christ as Jesus. Some as Christ Jesus. This is fascinating to me.

Finally, just like my interest in Islam, I am very much interested in seeing the crossover ( comparing and contrasting ) Judaism, Christianity, Catholicism, and Islam. How are they similar, how are they different. Also understanding the differences among the many denominations of Christianity is very interesting to me.

Maybe what you observed about me that was odd, is that I do not identify as Jewish here, even though I am ( technically ). You probably picked up on this. :) I have my reasons for not identifying as Jewish. And it seems there are at least a handful others who are doing the same; so I don't feel weird about it. People who know Judaism, certainly know that I am Jewish based on my knowledge-base, interests, and writing style. And I have been out'ed a few times. It's not my intention to hide it; but I also feel weird advertising it. I feel like I am very poor example of a Jewish person. And so there is very little point in identifying myself this way. And I feel like it gives me more freedom to be myself without worrying about being a bad role model.

If you have any other questions for me, ( or if you want to roast me a little more :smilingimp::smilingimp: ) don't be shy.

Most sincerely,
Well now, thank you for your most sincere answer. And I shall do my best to respond in a respectful manner because you have been so explicit and sincere. My background, believe it or not (yes,believe it) is similar to yours. I prefer not going into great detail on this board. Growing up, I was raised as a Jew. I was also raised to hate and be afraid of Christians and Germans, and heard stories about the pogroms in Russia. Much of my family was from Russia, and much was from Poland. Many died in the Holocaust. Here's a little more. When I went to college away from my family, I decided to investigate and question everything as much as possible. Now I will be brief. I examined Buddhism to a degree (like you did, I suppose) but I was not interested in Christianity in particular. Although I understood some things about Catholicism. Which is different from Protestantism. I finally got lost. Meaning I came to believe nothing. I will stop at the next point because really -- the journey is yours. I can only say it is between you and God, who can reveal the truth to you. But, just as Jesus was persecuted, the truth depends upon who is seeing it. I prayed to know God. He answered me. It took time. I believe I know Him,but then, as you also have evidently found in life, many believers with opposing viewpoints claim to know God also. And God the LORD is the Judge.
Jesus said the following at John 17:3 - English Standard Version
"And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."
So Jesus said his Father sent him to the earth, and he said that his Father is the only true God.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Well now, thank you for your most sincere answer. And I shall do my best to respond in a respectful manner because you have been so explicit and sincere. My background, believe it or not (yes,believe it) is similar to yours. I prefer not going into great detail on this board. Growing up, I was raised as a Jew. I was also raised to hate and be afraid of Christians and Germans, and heard stories about the pogroms in Russia. Much of my family was from Russia, and much was from Poland. Many died in the Holocaust. Here's a little more. When I went to college away from my family, I decided to investigate and question everything as much as possible. Now I will be brief. I examined Buddhism to a degree (like you did, I suppose) but I was not interested in Christianity in particular. Although I understood some things about Catholicism. Which is different from Protestantism. I finally got lost. Meaning I came to believe nothing. I will stop at the next point because really -- the journey is yours. I can only say it is between you and God, who can reveal the truth to you. But, just as Jesus was persecuted, the truth depends upon who is seeing it. I prayed to know God. He answered me. It took time. I believe I know Him,but then, as you also have evidently found in life, many believers with opposing viewpoints claim to know God also. And God the LORD is the Judge.
Jesus said the following at John 17:3 - English Standard Version
"And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."
So Jesus said his Father sent him to the earth, and he said that his Father is the only true God.

Except they were not the words of the man Jesus, were they? They were the words of the only man to have ascended to the throne of the Most High in the creation where he was chosen as the heir and successor to He who sat on that throne and was anointed, and translated in order that he should never experience death, and was given the name, "The Lesser JHWH," or the son of JHWH, who said to Moses; "I will raise up for them a prophet just like you from among their own people, and I shall put 'MY WORDS' into his mouth and He will speak to them all that I command him. And all who will not heed 'MY WORDS" that he shall speak in 'MY NAME' I will punish.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Jesus was obedient, as a son. Hebrews 5:7-9 -
"During the days of Jesus’ earthly life, He offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the One who could save Him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. 8 Although he was a Son, he learned obedience from what he suffered. 9 And having been made perfect, He became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey Him."
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
@YoursTrue ,

Since you are asking about me, I guess I can share. It seems like you want to tease me, and I give you 100% permission to do so. Feel free to be harsh, blunt, honest, funny. I actually enjoy it.

What do I want to learn?

I want to learn the similarities and differences among all beliefs and non-beliefs. Comparative religion is a hobby; I am not a professional; I am an amateur enthusiast. Emphasis on Amateur; Emphasis on enthusiast.

When asked to describe my beliefs, I choose to describe them as adaptive, organic, and in flux. I do not know where I fit religiously. Anytime I feel like I have found a religious / spiritual home, it doesn't stick. It could be my personality; it could be I am not "cut-out" for organized religion. It could be an asset. It could be a flaw.

My family heritage is Jewish. Both parents, all 4 grandparents. I have a minimal ( but adequate ) Jewish education, but both Parents are Atheists and their desire for me to learn to be "Jewish" felt hollow and insincere. Their Jewish identity was and is bound to Israeli politics, being persecuted in the past and expecting to be persecuted in the future, and pointing out the failures and flaws of Islam and Muslims. None of this made sense to me as a child, and none of it makes sense to me now.

When my daughter was born, I decided that I needed to have a firm grasp of my family's heritage, and I needed to have an alternate, more sincere version of Judaism to deliver as a heritage to her. At the time, I felt it was important to be able to answer her questions better than my parents did, and give her a sense of pride of her heritage in spite of how it was practiced in my home as a child.

What I found as I researched more and more was a beauty and depth to Judaism that I learned to love. I also developed a passion for learning about all religious beliefs and spiritual practices. Perhaps there was a future for me in the field of comparative religion, but that is in the past, and I doubt that this field of study is in my future. Besides, I enjoy learning as an amateur enthusiast. I wonder if making it my profession would somehow diminish my passion for learning.

This is why I have a solid foundation in knowledge of the Old Testament, Jewish Law, and Biblical Hebrew. I spent a short period of time obsessed with Buddhism. But looking back on it, I think I was actually learning Daoism. In the past year, I have been learning a lot about Islam. I think it's fascinating and I very much appreciate learning the similarities between it and Judaism. I have not learned anything about Christianity. It honestly has minimal appeal to me. But that could be simply a matter of my upbringing. It isn't something that I avoid, and most of my high school friends were/are devout Christians.

One thing I want to learn specifically about Christians is, this may sound crazy, is the language. How do Christians speak about their religious beliefs. All religion has Jargon, and this concept of Christian Jargon fascinates me. The words: Faith, Hope, Love, Father, LORD all seem to have deep spiritual impact and consequence to Christians. Also, I am interested in how some Christians speak of Jesus Christ as Jesus. Some as Christ Jesus. This is fascinating to me.

Finally, just like my interest in Islam, I am very much interested in seeing the crossover ( comparing and contrasting ) Judaism, Christianity, Catholicism, and Islam. How are they similar, how are they different. Also understanding the differences among the many denominations of Christianity is very interesting to me.

Maybe what you observed about me that was odd, is that I do not identify as Jewish here, even though I am ( technically ). You probably picked up on this. :) I have my reasons for not identifying as Jewish. And it seems there are at least a handful others who are doing the same; so I don't feel weird about it. People who know Judaism, certainly know that I am Jewish based on my knowledge-base, interests, and writing style. And I have been out'ed a few times. It's not my intention to hide it; but I also feel weird advertising it. I feel like I am very poor example of a Jewish person. And so there is very little point in identifying myself this way. And I feel like it gives me more freedom to be myself without worrying about being a bad role model.

If you have any other questions for me, ( or if you want to roast me a little more :smilingimp::smilingimp: ) don't be shy.

Most sincerely,
I will try to answer. And I mean this, because, even if a person says he belongs to a religion (especially on the internet), he may have varying views from the official belief of that religion. Or he may belong to a sect that varies in view from another sect which claims to belong to the same religion. So, it's hard to determine. One reason I have come to believe that only God can show a person the way.
You are familiar with the Jewish portion of the scriptures, so I will quote something Elijah said at 1 Kings 18:21: "Elijah went before the people and said, "How long will you waver between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him; but if Baal is God, follow him." But the people said nothing." It is a most interesting account, and I will read it again at greater length.
Elijah was speaking to a select group of people, not to the whole world with every different belief, and that is what extends to the outcome as we see it in part today with religion. How do we understand that? (Through the inspired writings of the Bible.)
There are several books about comparative religion. If you would like some recommendations, I will be glad to give you a few.
 

Neutral Name

Active Member
World English Bible
James
2:8 However, if you fulfill the royal law, according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself you do well.
2:9 But if you show partiality, you commit sin, being convicted by the law as transgressors.
2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law, and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
World English Bible
James
2:8 However, if you fulfill the royal law, according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself you do well.
2:9 But if you show partiality, you commit sin, being convicted by the law as transgressors.
2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law, and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
Thanks for posting that scripture.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Jesus was obedient, as a son. Hebrews 5:7-9 -
"During the days of Jesus’ earthly life, He offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the One who could save Him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. 8 Although he was a Son, he learned obedience from what he suffered. 9 And having been made perfect, He became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey Him."

You will notice that it is written; "Although he was 'A' son," not God's son or the son of God, but 'A' son. He learned through sufferings to be obedient.

Psalms 82: 6; 'You are gods,' I said; 'All of you are sons of the Most High.'
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
You will notice that it is written; "Although he was 'A' son," not God's son or the son of God, but 'A' son. He learned through sufferings to be obedient.

Psalms 82: 6; 'You are gods,' I said; 'All of you are sons of the Most High.'
Yes, Hebrews 5:7-9 says that he was 'a' son. How wonderful that God called Jesus His dearly loved son at Matthew 3:17. "And a voice from heaven said, “This is my dearly loved Son, who brings me great joy.” So Jesus clearly brought his heavenly Father great joy. And John 1:34 says, "And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God." You do bring up an interesting point. Adam,too, was deemed to have been a son of God. But it was not said he brought his Father great joy.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Matthew 27:45-46
45 From noon until three in the afternoon darkness came over all the land. 46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, clemasabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

After an extensive time on the cross at a point when the suffering of Jesus is most plain and difficult to endure, Jesus appears to cry out in a way indicating that he is deeply suffering and even questioning whether God is with him.

Or maybe Jesus is leading us all in prayer to music from Psalm 22 which begins with those words and we should finish what he started by reciting, singing that psalm until we read "He has done it" which might also be "It is finished".

In the depths of despair we must hold on to our faith...that is what faith is for. Beyond despair their is salvation.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Matthew 27:45-46
45 From noon until three in the afternoon darkness came over all the land. 46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, clemasabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

After an extensive time on the cross at a point when the suffering of Jesus is most plain and difficult to endure, Jesus appears to cry out in a way indicating that he is deeply suffering and even questioning whether God is with him.

Or maybe Jesus is leading us all in prayer to music from Psalm 22 which begins with those words and we should finish what he started by reciting, singing that psalm until we read "He has done it" which might also be "It is finished".

In the depths of despair we must hold on to our faith...that is what faith is for. Beyond despair their is salvation.
Yes, Jesus was faithful yet in despair, pleasing to God, His Father, until the end. He had a mission to accomplish. And he was successful. So he certainly could say, "It is finished."
 

Neutral Name

Active Member
Great thread!!

Jesus gave two principles by which all of his disciples must live....
1) We are to 'love God (the Father) with all that we are and all that we have....mind, heart and soul'.
2) We are to 'love our neighbor as ourselves'.....'doing to them what we would want done to ourselves'. Volumes could be written just on those two commands.

But if we know what Jesus teaches about how to worship God i.e. "with spirit and truth" (John 4:24) then we will be aware of God's standards on morality and the importance of not bringing human ideas into our worship. This was the undoing of both Judaism and Christendom. By introducing ideas from outside influences and human thinking, both were hopelessly corrupted. The role and identity of the Messiah was distorted by both of these religious systems, but significantly, it was foretold that this would happen.

So in a nutshell, Jesus gave the more important things in Matthew 19:16-24......

16 Now look! someone came up to him and said: “Teacher, what good must I do to gain everlasting life?” 17 He said to him: “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If, though, you want to enter into life, observe the commandments continually.” 18 He said to him: “Which ones?” Jesus said: “You must not murder, you must not commit adultery, you must not steal, you must not bear false witness, 19 honor your father and your mother, and you must love your neighbor as yourself.”'20 The young man said to him: “I have kept all of these; what am I still lacking?” 21 Jesus said to him: “If you want to be perfect, go sell your belongings and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come be my follower.” 22 When the young man heard this, he went away grieved, for he had many possessions. 23 Then Jesus said to his disciples: “Truly I say to you that it will be difficult for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of the heavens. 24 Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to get through a needle’s eye than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God.”

You absolutely know Jesus and love God. Your posts show me that this is true. I think the world of you.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
You absolutely know Jesus and love God. Your posts show me that this is true. I think the world of you.

My humble thanks. That is like an encouraging hug!
:hugehug:
This kind of feedback proves that there are still those out there who can appreciate the truth when they hear it.
We both obviously think the world of God and his son :)
 

Neutral Name

Active Member
Why? Are you incapable of reading the scriptures for yourself?

I'm glad you asked. Many Christians don't seem to know what Jesus said was important.

Mark 12:33 New International Version (NIV)
33 To love him (God) with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

Luke 10:27 He answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself."
 
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