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Baptism as a public declaration and "spirit of Jezebel"

Ellen Brown

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
d
e.r.m. said:
That's what I'm asking. In your opinion who are the devout who have caused this suffering?
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Since this is a "Debate Forum", I suppose I am allowed to be frank? All this is my opinion, so those I mention and you may not agree. I think that the Baptists are far too condemning. The Evangelicals have allowed themselves to be led down the garden paths by Television, feel good theology, hacks. Oddly the "International Foursquare Church roundly condemned me, and 15 years later apologized. The Mormons gave me hope, but then later decided to recant what they'd said. Their constant yammering about worthiness, and Temple Privileges finally discouraged me to the point I left.

I don't advocate for LGBT rights, nor do I condemn them. People make all sorts of assumptions about my sexuality none of which is true because I have none at all.

I've said it before. God's desires for us can be summed up on a single page. Micah 6:8 is the peak if one only abided by one rule. Matt 5, Matt 6:9-15, PS 23, The Ten Commandments would be a good start.
 
sooda

sooda

Veteran Member
e.r.m. said:
Agreed. Yes, but we can't say that they're all con artists. But let's say these teachers are all con artists. I'm talking about the followers. What puts Bible students in such a state to accept a teaching based entirely on someone else's word, and it never occurs to them to ask for a scripture reference?

I suspect part of it is that they are initially taught to rely on the Bible only so much, and taught to rely as much on the teacher's narrative. So that the Bible student who falls for these think they are going by the Bible, and don't even realize how much of it is not the Bible. But I think that's only part of it.
Thank you.
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Never underestimate the laziness and stupidity of most Americans.
 
e.r.m.

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
sooda said:
Never underestimate the laziness and stupidity of most Americans.
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I don't think it's an American thing. I think it's a human thing. I think many see Bible teaching as a service, like all other services we don't have the time or ability to do for ourselves: mechanics, restaurants, barber shops, etc. But the Bible is one we can't risk getting wrong, so it deserves one's own examination.
 
sooda

sooda

Veteran Member
e.r.m. said:
I don't think it's an American thing. I think it's a human thing. I think many see Bible teaching as a service, like all other services we don't have the time or ability to do for ourselves: mechanics, restaurants, barber shops, etc. But the Bible is one we can't risk getting wrong, so it deserves one's own examination.
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If the details were that important don't you think God would have straightened it out?
 
e.r.m.

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
sooda said:
If the details were that important don't you think God would have straightened it out?
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He gave us what we need. It's us who needs to follow it. For example, baptism as a public declaration is never taught in the Bible, so don't teach it. A spirit of Jezebel is not mentioned in the Bible, so don't teach it. Teach what is in there. That's not detail, that's a basic..
 
sooda

sooda

Veteran Member
e.r.m. said:
He gave us what we need. It's us who needs to follow it. For example, baptism as a public declaration is never taught in the Bible, so don't teach it. A spirit of Jezebel is not mentioned in the Bible, so don't teach it. Teach what is in there. That's not detail, that's a basic..
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What's the harm other than people who want to be more righteous than the other guy? ( I have no idea what the "spirit of Jezebel" is.)

As for me.. I like "lukewarm Christians" as opposed to firebrands and zealots.
 
sooda

sooda

Veteran Member
Well, my goodness..

30 Traits of the Jezebel Spirit

  1. Refuses to admit guilt or wrong.
  2. Takes credit for everything.
  3. Uses people to accomplish its agenda.
  4. Withholds information.
  5. Talks in confusion.
  6. Volunteers for anything.
  7. Lies.
30 Traits of the Jezebel Spirit | Truth in Reality
truthinreality.com/2013/09/24/30-consistent-traits-of-the-jezebel-spirit/
 
e.r.m.

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
Ellen Brown said:
d

Since this is a "Debate Forum", I suppose I am allowed to be frank? All this is my opinion, so those I mention and you may not agree. I think that the Baptists are far too condemning. The Evangelicals have allowed themselves to be led down the garden paths by Television, feel good theology, hacks.
Click to expand...
I agree with this to a degree. I believe within any group there is a spectrum of people and personalities. There will always be people within most holier than thou groups who share the word of God both in truth and compassion.

Oddly the "International Foursquare Church roundly condemned me, and 15 years later apologized.
Click to expand...
I'm glad you got an apology.

The Mormons gave me hope, but then later decided to recant what they'd said. Their constant yammering about worthiness, and Temple Privileges finally discouraged me to the point I left.
Click to expand...
Weird stuff, and not Biblical..

I don't advocate for LGBT rights, nor do I condemn them. People make all sorts of assumptions about my sexuality none of which is true because I have none at all.

I've said it before. God's desires for us can be summed up on a single page. Micah 6:8 is the peak if one only abided by one rule. Matt 5, Matt 6:9-15, PS 23, The Ten Commandments would be a good start.
Click to expand...
There's a lot in those passages for sure. But the Bible can't be summed up so easily. When people "sum up" the Bible they tend not to take it as only a "summary", but as the only teaching and a way to exclude everything else. People also tend to sum up with passages they favor and exclude those they don't favor. These passages don't speak of Jesus as the son of God, which is a huge part of it all. Again, these passages are good, just not complete. A lot of people would sum up the entire Bible as Jesus on the cross, and that would also be incomplete. It's all of it.

My own conclusion is that the belief in God should be privately held close to your heart.
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I understand this is your conclusion. I think you'd be more likely to think differently if you had seen how public as well as personal belief in God was lived out by Jesus and His followers.
 
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e.r.m.

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
sooda said:
Well, my goodness..

30 Traits of the Jezebel Spirit
  1. Refuses to admit guilt or wrong.
  2. Takes credit for everything.
  3. Uses peogpeogple to accomplish its agenda.
  4. Withholds information.
  5. Talks in confusion.
  6. Volunteers for anything.
  7. Lies.
30 Traits of the Jezebel Spirit | Truth in Reality
truthinreality.com/2013/09/24/30-consistent-traits-of-the-jezebel-spirit/
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It's not a Biblical teaching. That has as much Biblical validity as the little drummer boy.
 
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sooda

sooda

Veteran Member
e.r.m. said:
I agree with this to a degree. I believe within any group there is a spectrum of people and personalities. There will always be people within most holier than thou groups who share the word of God both in truth and compassion.

I'm glad you got an apology.

Weird stuff, and not Biblical..

There's a lot in those passages for sure. But the Bible can't be summed up so easily. When people "sum up" the Bible they tend not to take it as only a "summary", but as the only teaching and a way to exclude everything else. People also tend to sum up with passages they favor and exclude those they don't favor. These passages don't speak of Jesus as the son of God, which is a huge part of it all. Again, these passages are good, just not complete. A lot of people would sum up the entire Bible as Jesus on the cross, and that would also be incomplete. It's all of it.

I understand this is your conclusion. I think you'd be more likely to think differently if you had seen how public as well as personal belief in God was lived out by Jesus and His followers.
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Did YOU see how publicly as well as privately they lived they lived their lives?
 
sooda

sooda

Veteran Member
e.r.m. said:
Are you an antagonist? For me the scriptures are enough. I was proposing a hypothetical, that's why I said I think.
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Nope. I am not any antagonist. and am very clear about the basics, but I am also for live and let live.. so the myths and ritualistic practices are not something to fuss about.

If it was important, don't you think God would have stepped in and made it right?

Why quibble about the mother of Jesus when we have Christians who speak in tongues and handle snakes?
 
e.r.m.

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
sooda said:
Nope. I am not any antagonist. and am very clear about the basics, but I am also for live and let live.. so the myths and ritualistic practices are not something to fuss about.
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Ok.

If it was important, don't you think God would have stepped in and made it right?
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With passages like 2 Timothy 4:2-4, 2 Peter 3:16, 1 Timothy 4:16, John 1:12, no. God gives us some responsibility.

Why quibble about the mother of Jesus when we have Christians who speak in tongues and handle snakes?
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The point is learning and teaching how to rightly divide the word of God, which the Bible authors considered important. With regard to a jezebel spirit, it's about sparing people from a tremendous distraction. With regard to baptism, it's a salvation issue. (and with snakes about saving lives).
 
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sooda

sooda

Veteran Member
e.r.m. said:
I'm not sure that I get your meaning here.

Sorry to hear that, given what's written in Revelation 3:15-16.
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Yeah.. They sure hated the Romans and the apostate Jews who sided with them. IMO if religion makes you crazy, back off a little.
 
sooda

sooda

Veteran Member
e.r.m. said:
Ok.

With passages like 2 Timothy 4:2-4, 2 Peter 3:16, 1 Timothy 4:16, John 1:12, no. God gives us some responsibility.

The point is learning and teaching how to rightly divide the word of God, which the Bible authors considered important.
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Timothy never met Jesus.
 
Ellen Brown

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
sooda said:
Nope. I am not any antagonist. and am very clear about the basics, but I am also for live and let live.. so the myths and ritualistic practices are not something to fuss about.

If it was important, don't you think God would have stepped in and made it right?

Why quibble about the mother of Jesus when we have Christians who speak in tongues and handle snakes?
Click to expand...

I'm questioning all the energy that I put into religion in the past. Now I am wondering if I am more of a person who believes in the Science of a Creator, but not in all the magic, and smoke and mirrors that many of those of belief try to put into it. I often wonder if all the religiosity is merely a deceptive roadblock that the shaitan leads people into as a way to impede true knowledge of the Creator?
 
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