What does the Bible say about the origins of the Earth in relation to what science say?

Polymath257 · Jul 1, 2019

shmogie said:
You say that science KNOWS. That is totally incorrect.

Based on evidence, and the interpretation of that evidence, science postulates and creates a theory.

Theories aren´t absolute knowledge.

I once read a brilliant article by an MIT physics professor who now teaches in Israel.

His position was that distance dialates time. I have it somewhere, I will try and find it.

His thought experiment was this.

If in a very distant galaxy a powerful laser released a beam toward earth every second, the light, because of dialation would not arrive on earth seconds apart, but rather weeks apart.

So, at the point of origin the time element was seconds, on earth it was weeks, or more.

Both are right. so looking back the universe appears to be 14 billion years old, but because of time dialation it may have been created a million years ago.

This is a crude summation of what I read some time ago, It will no doubt be picked apart by someone, but I hope to retrieve the article and rebut the pickers apart.

Well, there are some factual inaccuracies here. The first is that time dilation simply doesn't work that way: the light from distant galaxies *does* act like is described here. We know this from actual observation of processes via the light from those galaxies.

The second is that to get a time dilation sufficient to make 14 billion years consistent with 6000 years would require a LOT more mass, gravitation, or speed that anything we see. In fact, even the *close* stars in our own galaxy are farther away than 6000 light years (up to 100,000 light years. Also *nearby* galaxies, like the Andromeda Spiral are millions of light years away) , so anything only affecting distant galaxies won't affect that.

Sorry, but what you read is a desperate attempt by someone trying to get science and the Bible to agree. But they simply don't.

Darkforbid · Jul 1, 2019

Polymath257 said:
OK, here's a little thing I wrote up for the Biblical age of the Earth.

Genesis 5.3: And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

Genesis 5:6 And Seth lived an hundred and five years, and begat Enos:

Total: 130+105 = 235 years

Genesis 5:9 And Enos lived ninety years, and begat Cainan:

Total: 235+90 = 325 years

Genesis 5:12 And Cainan lived seventy years and begat Mahalaleel:

Total: 325+70 = 395 years

Genesis 5:15 And Mahalaleel lived sixty and five years, and begat Jared:

Total: 395+65 = 460 years

Genesis 5:18 And Jared lived an hundred sixty and two years, and he begat Enoch:

Total: 460+162 = 622 years

Genesis 5:21 And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah:

Total: 622+65 = 687 years

Genesis 5:25 And Methuselah lived an hundred eighty and seven years, and begat Lamech.

Total: 687+187 = 874 years.

Genesis 5:28 And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son:
5:29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.

Total: 874+182 = 1056 years

Genesis 7:6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.

Total: 1056+600 = 1656 years
This gives the date of the flood according to the Bible.

Genesis 8:13 And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry.

Total: 1056+601 = 1657 years
This gives the date of the end of the flood.

Genesis 11:10 These are the generations of Shem: Shem was an hundred years old, and begat Arphaxad two years after the flood:

Total: 1657+2 = 1659 years
This is a bit ambiguous: is the two years measured from the beginning or the end of the flood?

Genesis 11:12 And Arphaxad lived five and thirty years, and begat Salah:

Total: 1659+35 = 1694 years

Genesis 11:14 And Salah lived thirty years, and begat Eber:

Total: 1694+30 = 1724 years

Genesis 11:16 And Eber lived four and thirty years, and begat Peleg:

Total: 1724+34 = 1758 years

Genesis 11:18 And Peleg lived thirty years, and begat Reu:

Total: 1758+30 = 1788

Genesis 11:20 And Reu lived two and thirty years, and begat Serug:

Total: 1788+32 = 1820 years

Genesis 11:22 And Serug lived thirty years, and begat Nahor:

Total: 1820+30 = 1850 years

Genesis 11:24 And Nahor lived nine and twenty years, and begat Terah:

Total: 1850+29 = 1879 years

Genesis 11:26 And Terah lived seventy years, and begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran.

Total: 1879+70 = 1949 years

Genesis 21:5 And Abraham was an hundred years old, when his son Isaac was born unto him.
Note: Abram and Abraham are the same person.

Total: 1949+100 = 2049 years.

Genesis 25:26 And after that came his brother out, and his hand took hold on Esau's heel; and his name was called Jacob: and Isaac was threescore years old when she bare them.

Total: 2049+60 = 2109 years

Genesis 47:28 And Jacob lived in the land of Egypt seventeen years: so the whole age of Jacob was an hundred forty and seven years.

Total: 2109+147 = 2256 years

This means that Jacob went into Egypt at

Total: 2256-17 = 2239 years.

Exodus 12:40 Now the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years.
Note: this is an over-estimate: some people think the 430 years starts when Abraham went into Canaan.

Total: 2239+430 = 2669 years.

1 Kings 6:1 And it came to pass in the four hundred and eightieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel, in the month Zif, which is the second month, that he began to build the house of the LORD.
Note: some would add to this the 40 years in the desert.

Total: 2669+480 = 3149 years.

The temple stood for 410 years:

Total: 3149+410 = 3459 years

Destruction of the temple of Solomon by Neuchadnezzer was in 587 BC.

This means that Adam was formed 3459+587 = 4046 BC.
The global flood, according to the Bible, was 4046-1657=2389 BC.mans have only existed about 6000 years.

But we *know* of cities (like Catal Huyuk) that have existed for 10,000 years, and evidence of humans going back 200,000 years. So even in the limited context of how long humans have been around, the Bible gives ages that are just contrary to the actual evidence.

That would be your mistake thinking Adam was the first man, genesis does not make this claim.

Polymath257 · Jul 1, 2019

SA Huguenot said:
Ok so God says this is what he did every day
Well, it goes like this,
In the beginning:
God created the Heavens and the Earth
the Earth was void and dark without any recognisable shape,
and the Spirit of God hovered above the waters.
God said, let there be Light, and it was evening and morning,
the 1st day was done.
day 2
God seperated waters above and below a firmament he made
day 3
God seperated land and sea.
day 4
God placed the Sun, Moon and Stars in the sky.
We will go so far for now.

To me something was very difficuilt to understand, and it was this thing called a firmament.
I thought about it for about 3 weeks, visited some websites, read commentaries, but I could not get the answer.
Water that was above and below this firmament simply did not calculate in my mind.

I then memorised Chapter one and kept on thinking about it as I travelled to work and home. At that stage I had a good 2 hours travelling a day.

Now, this is not a hoax, or something I cooked up, but a voice told me: "What did the Earth look on the morning of the 3rd day?"
Without causing an accident at 140Km/h, my mind rushed around at the same speed.
So, let me leave the Question over to anyone who would like to answer.
What did the Earth look on the morning of day 3?

Ancient belief in Canaan and surrounding areas was that the sky was a solid object on which the stars were placed. In the Bible, this solid object was called the firmament. There were supposed to be water above (with gates that could later be opened for Noah's flood).

Also, the primordial creation event was from water (the deep). Notice that this already existed and was not created by God in the Biblical account. In fact, God was moving over the face of the deep. In Canaanite mythology, the primordial water was analogous to chaos and existed before creation.

David T · Jul 1, 2019

SA Huguenot said:
A few years ago I decided to do some Bible investigation (study) into what the Bible say about the creation of our universe. I had just about enough on what Atheists and Muslims told me what they perceived the Bible said.

The Bible say the Sun was created after the Earth, yet science knows that the Sun is part of the Universe, and our solar system is 8 billion years younger than the galaxy we live in. Therefore, the Bible is wrong.

The Bible say that the Universe is only about 6 000 years old, and science knows this is a huge error. It can be as old as 12.5 to 18 billion years! If the Author of the Bible could not describe the creation to syncronize with what science knows today, he can not be the God who created it all.

Well, so the argument goes. Quite frankly, these arguments are valid!
I never found anyone that could answer these questions, except for perhaps Creationists that denies science and twist the understanding of the Creation description to fit in with science. Some might even attempt to twist scientific facts to fit in with the Bible.

I just wondered "What is the Facts"?
I realised that I had to go to Genesis to see for myself what the Bible says about the way God created everything.
And I was quite surprised at what I found, was totally different from what I always believed the Bible said. Today I am delighted to know that what science says, the Bible described 4 500 years ago to Moses.
Lets first recap what Genesis 1 says about the first 5 days.

It doesnt have lips so it has nothing to say.

Audie · Jul 1, 2019

Darkforbid said:
That would be your mistake thinking Adam was the first man, genesis does not make this claim.

Some say it does, some say it does not.
Only the infallible know which it says.
Luckily, both sides are backed by God
granting special access to arcane knowledge.

Audie · Jul 1, 2019

Darkforbid said:
Why would expect a collection of books written over a massive time period not to have differences. It seem illogical assuming they wouldn't

I expect very little of "the bible'.

ChristineM · Jul 1, 2019

SA Huguenot said:
However, you are correct, it does not say the Earth is 6 000 years old, but life is 6 000 years old.

So 6000 years and 6 days then

Darkforbid · Jul 1, 2019

Audie said:
Some say it does, some say it does not.
Only the infallible know which it says.
Luckily, both sides are backed by God
granting special access to arcane knowledge.

I prefer the term esoteric

Audie · Jul 1, 2019

Darkforbid said:
I prefer the term esoteric

Call it that if you like, it changes not the absurdity of
it.

Vee · Jul 1, 2019

SA Huguenot said:
The Bible say the Sun was created after the Earth, yet science knows that the Sun is part of the Universe, and our solar system is 8 billion years younger than the galaxy we live in. Therefore, the Bible is wrong.

The Bible say that the Universe is only about 6 000 years old, and science knows this is a huge error. It can be as old as 12.5 to 18 billion years! If the Author of the Bible could not describe the creation to syncronize with what science knows today, he can not be the God who created it all.

I'm not sure where you got this from, so let's get back to the beginning.
Genesis 1:1 says "In the beginning God created the havens and the earth", which basically doesn't say much. It doesn't give any indication of how long this took. Could have been millions of years. It is simply not mentioned.
The Bible doesn't actually support the concept that creation would have taken 6, 24 hours days, since the word "day" is frequently used in connection with different lengths of time. Keep in mind that in the Hebrew and the Greek Scriptures, the word “day” (Heb., yohm; Gr., he·meʹra) can be used used in a literal but also in a figurative/symbolic sense.
We don't know how long each of the creating days lasted but it could have been thousands of years. Think in terms of creation periods instead of literal "days". It's easier not to get confused that way.
Since God had already created the planet, it makes sense to believe that the six periods of creation mentioned in the Bible were used to prepare the earth to be inhabited.
If you follow the chronology, in Genesis 1:2 it says the earth was formless and desolate and dark so on the first "day" God took care of bringing in some light. Genesis 1:3 says "And God said: let there be light.Then there was light". We don't know how long this took.
The second "day" God separates water and atmospheric vapor. Again, no indication of a specific length of time.
The third "day" dry land appears, some vegetation starts growing and from that point onward plants and trees start gradually appearing. (Gen.9:13).
The fourth day the sun and moon become visible from the earth. It's not specified at what point the sun and the moon were created or how old they are. It might seem like they were created after the earth, but whereas Gen. 1:1 states that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, in the verses 16 and 17 we read that during the fourth “day,” God proceeded to make the two great luminaries, the greater luminary for dominating the day and the lesser luminary for dominating the night, and also the stars. However, the Hebrew word ʽa·sahʹ, frequently translated “make,” can mean simply to establish or to prepare. So the the sun, moon, and stars became discernible. It doesn't mean they didn't exist before. Remember that the original Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek, so it's really important to see what each word means in those languages before jumping to conclusions.
"Day" 5 God created the creatures of the waters and the birds. (Gen. 1: 20-23)
On the 6th "day" the others animals were created and it culminates with the creation of Man. (Gen 1:24-31)

The truth is, the Bible doesn't give a lot of detail abut creation, how long it took or how old the earth and the stars are. From what it says I can't see a conflict with science. It is very possible that the universe is millions of years old. The Bible doesn't contradict that.

A Vestigial Mote · Jul 1, 2019

RESOLUTION said:
When you cannot say anything intelligent it is best you say nothing at all. Posted today by me....

She was only parroting your assertion:

RESOLUTION said:
We see that God formed a mature earth it may take millions of years if formed naturally but God engineered the earth and it was created a mature earth millions of years old.

...but just changed it so that the moment of inserting the "mature" earth was last Thursday. Where's the problem with this? I am sure she has just as much actual evidence for this as you do for your assertion. We could even write it down if you want. Just think about it... God created you with all your memories and everything intact, and then just put everything in motion last Thursday. Why not? With thinking like yours it should be entirely plausible. And with beliefs like yours you should simply take our word for it. The universe was put into play last Thursday. With @Audie and I, that makes two of us... and that must account for something. Theists sure seem to think it does.

Audie · Jul 1, 2019

A Vestigial Mote said:
She was only parroting your assertion:

...but just changed it so that the moment of inserting the "mature" earth was last Thursday. Where's the problem with this? I am sure she has just as much actual evidence for this as you do for your assertion. We could even write it down if you want. Just think about it... God created you with all your memories and everything intact, and then just put everything in motion last Thursday. Why not? With thinking like yours it should be entirely plausible. And with beliefs like yours you should simply take our word for it. The universe was put into play last Thursday. With @Audie and I, that makes two of us... and that must account for something. Theists sure seem to think it does.

Kind of weird that it needs explaining! I
was impressed that our hero missed the
connection between "embedded age"
and, "Last Thursdayism"!

When "embedded age" is reduced to its simplest
form, as in Last Thursdayism, even the veriest
theo can see the absurdity.

Darkforbid · Jul 1, 2019

Audie said:
Of course everyone has bias.
It takes no bias to see that t he bible is full of
fairy tales, or that peter rabbit is a fairy tale.

Some reason to avoid that obvious fact?

You actually cannot understand what this means-
Like I think anyone can be totally objective-and concoct
it that I cannot understand that people have bias?

Incredible.

Well in that case Professor Lennox description of atheism as a "delusion" and a "fairy tale for those afraid of the light".

Would also be just as unbiased as your the bible is a fairy tale quotes

1213 · Jul 1, 2019

SA Huguenot said:
•The Bible say the Sun was created after the Earth, yet science knows that the Sun is part of the Universe, and our solar system is 8 billion years younger than the galaxy we live in. Therefore, the Bible is wrong.

Scientific beliefs cans also be wrong.

SA Huguenot said:
•The Bible say that the Universe is only about 6 000 years old, and science knows this is a huge error. It can be as old as 12.5 to 18 billion years!

Bible doesn’t really say “universe is about 6000 years old”. And Science can be wrong about the age of universe. Wouldn’t be the first time science is wrong.

SA Huguenot said:
What did the Earth look on the morning of day 3?

What do you mean with “Earth”? Bible tells earth meant dry land. And in the beginning, there was one continent of dry land. And on the morning of day 3 there was plants, or their seeds on/in earth.

shmogie · Jul 1, 2019

Polymath257 said:
Well, there are some factual inaccuracies here. The first is that time dilation simply doesn't work that way: the light from distant galaxies *does* act like is described here. We know this from actual observation of processes via the light from those galaxies.

The second is that to get a time dilation sufficient to make 14 billion years consistent with 6000 years would require a LOT more mass, gravitation, or speed that anything we see. In fact, even the *close* stars in our own galaxy are farther away than 6000 light years (up to 100,000 light years. Also *nearby* galaxies, like the Andromeda Spiral are millions of light years away) , so anything only affecting distant galaxies won't affect that.

Sorry, but what you read is a desperate attempt by someone trying to get science and the Bible to agree. But they simply don't.

I found the article, and will take the salient points from it and post them, I certainly am not qualified to argue with a physicist. perhaps you think you are.

Watch for my post, with citations, and you can have at it.

corynski · Jul 1, 2019

SA Huguenot said:
Ok so God says this is what he did every day
Well, it goes like this,
In the beginning:
God created the Heavens and the Earth
the Earth was void and dark without any recognisable shape,
and the Spirit of God hovered above the waters.
God said, let there be Light, and it was evening and morning,
the 1st day was done.
day 2
God seperated waters above and below a firmament he made
day 3
God seperated land and sea.
day 4
God placed the Sun, Moon and Stars in the sky.
We will go so far for now.

To me something was very difficuilt to understand, and it was this thing called a firmament.
I thought about it for about 3 weeks, visited some websites, read commentaries, but I could not get the answer.
Water that was above and below this firmament simply did not calculate in my mind.

I then memorised Chapter one and kept on thinking about it as I travelled to work and home. At that stage I had a good 2 hours travelling a day.

Now, this is not a hoax, or something I cooked up, but a voice told me: "What did the Earth look on the morning of the 3rd day?"
Without causing an accident at 140Km/h, my mind rushed around at the same speed.
So, let me leave the Question over to anyone who would like to answer.
What did the Earth look on the morning of day 3?

You must be joking! After reading the account in the bible you would still consider it to represent reality? And how can you even imagine that an omniscient, omnipotent, etc. 'god' could or would create anything so absurd and ridiculous as this world? It's insane, but then what does an omnipotent 'god' even have to do all day?
Respectfully..... please read some anthropology and learn that humans have created thousands of gods and goddesses, each unique to their cultures.... it's what people did to unify and keep their group together. You must be aware that humans are brainwashed from the day of their birth to believe in the deity of their group by preachers and parents, long before they can understand or reason. It's called indoctrination into the group's beliefs. Were you not aware also that the land 'god' gave to the Jews had been lived upon by the Canaanites and their families for a couple of thousand years before 'god' even wrote the bible? It's all so obvious fiction for cultural unification reasons.......
Anyone who can accept the bible as a representation of reality should rethink that position.......

corynski · Jul 1, 2019

SA Huguenot said:
A few years ago I decided to do some Bible investigation (study) into what the Bible say about the creation of our universe. I had just about enough on what Atheists and Muslims told me what they perceived the Bible said.

The Bible say the Sun was created after the Earth, yet science knows that the Sun is part of the Universe, and our solar system is 8 billion years younger than the galaxy we live in. Therefore, the Bible is wrong.

The Bible say that the Universe is only about 6 000 years old, and science knows this is a huge error. It can be as old as 12.5 to 18 billion years! If the Author of the Bible could not describe the creation to syncronize with what science knows today, he can not be the God who created it all.

Well, so the argument goes. Quite frankly, these arguments are valid!
I never found anyone that could answer these questions, except for perhaps Creationists that denies science and twist the understanding of the Creation

description to fit in with science. Some might even attempt to twist scientific facts to fit in with the Bible.

I just wondered "What is the Facts"?
I realised that I had to go to Genesis to see for myself what the Bible says about the way God created everything.
And I was quite surprised at what I found, was totally different from what I always believed the Bible said. Today I am delighted to know that what science says, the Bible described 4 500 years ago to Moses.
Lets first recap what Genesis 1 says about the first 5 days.

May I suggest you reconsider your question regarding a '3rd day', as it is meaningless....... there was no 3rd day or 4th day or 5th day, there were millennia of years of evolution. Quite seriously, evolution is the only theory, and fact incidentally, that explains the past.
No, I don't believe we have any idea, nor likely ever will, about how all this mess came about. Would you create a world where every single creature must eat some other living creature, alive, to stay alive yourself? If you were all-powerful?

Darkforbid · Jul 1, 2019

corynski said:
You must be joking! After reading the account in the bible you would still consider it to represent reality? And how can you even imagine that an omniscient, omnipotent, etc. 'god' could or would create anything so absurd and ridiculous as this world? It's insane, but then what does an omnipotent 'god' even have to do all day?
Respectfully..... please read some anthropology and learn that humans have created thousands of gods and goddesses, each unique to their cultures.... it's what people did to unify and keep their group together. You must be aware that humans are brainwashed from the day of their birth to believe in the deity of their group by preachers and parents, long before they can understand or reason. It's called indoctrination into the group's beliefs. Were you not aware also that the land 'god' gave to the Jews had been lived upon by the Canaanites and their families for a couple of thousand years before 'god' even wrote the bible? It's all so obvious fiction for cultural unification reasons.......
Anyone who can accept the bible as a representation of reality should rethink that position.......

When has anyone ever claimed God wrote the Bible

Darkforbid · Jul 1, 2019

corynski said:
May I suggest you reconsider your question regarding a '3rd day', as it is meaningless....... there was no 3rd day or 4th day or 5th day, there were millennia of years of evolution. Quite seriously, evolution is the only theory, and fact incidentally, that explains the past.
No, I don't believe we have any idea, nor likely ever will, about how all this mess came about. Would you create a world where every single creature must eat some other living creature, alive, to stay alive yourself? If you were all-powerful?

Oh I see the world must fit your version of perfection otherwise God doesn't exist

corynski · Jul 1, 2019

Darkforbid said:
When has anyone ever claimed God wrote the Bible

Technically correct, hastily written. I would rephrase that in some way, although I have seen god referred to as the 'author' of what is included within the bible. Or god's 'word' is often used........

What does the Bible say about the origins of the Earth in relation to what science say?

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