The mother of Jesus

Vee · Jun 30, 2019

JJ50 said:
The Catholics have turned Mary into some kind of saint, whereas apart from the virgin birth tale, the gospel writers don't mention her much at all. Even that son of hers doesn't seem to have included her in his group of disciples. The idea of going to a confessional and being given hail marys to say, the number depending on how naughty you have been, seems like superstitious nonsense to me.

The Bible doesn't say anywhere that Mary was a saint o that people should pray to her. On the contrary, it says very clearly that all prayers should be addressed to God.
Praying to Mary instead of God is something that the church came up with and has no scriptural base.

SugarOcean · Jun 30, 2019

JJ50 said:
The Catholics have turned Mary into some kind of saint, whereas apart from the virgin birth tale, the gospel writers don't mention her much at all. Even that son of hers doesn't seem to have included her in his group of disciples. The idea of going to a confessional and being given hail marys to say, the number depending on how naughty you have been, seems like superstitious nonsense to me.

Well then, it's a good thing you're not a Roman Catholic.

That Christians pray to something invisible that we believe cares about us and polices our behavior to some seems like superstitious nonsense.

Mary is written of in the Gospel canon. MARY, Mother of Jesus in the Gospels & Acts - who was she?
And in non-canonical books as well. The Papyrus Berolinensis 8502, for instance.
Papyrus Berolinensis (BG) 8502 - Oxford Scholarship

Apocryphal Writings on the Life of Mary : University of Dayton, Ohio

Mary deserves respect. She was the grace filled vessel chosen by God to deliver the Messiah to the world. If you're not a Catholic but believe in religious freedom, don't mock other Christian denominations their faith and practice.
Otherwise, we'll be found in deficit of our own grace. Bigotry among Christians for Christians is a lousy testimony of one's own grace.

exchemist · Jun 30, 2019

Vee said:
The Bible doesn't say anywhere that Mary was a saint o that people should pray to her. On the contrary, it says very clearly that all prayers should be addressed to God.
Praying to Mary instead of God is something that the church came up with and has no scriptural base.

....and bears relieve themselves in the forest........

From the very beginning, the church has interpreted the bible and developed further doctrines by trying to - as it saw it - reason from what was in the bible. The concept of intercession of saints is very ancient and in fact, it seems (I did not know this until I looked it up,) is apparently rooted in biblical precedent. Details here: Intercession of saints - Wikipedia

Saint just means holy (from the Latin sanctus) and has come to be applied to those who are considered sure of a place in heaven. I am sure most Christians would think that would apply to Mary.

Twilight Hue · Jun 30, 2019

Valjean said:
But Catholics pray to her, they construct icons to her, they worship her. It's been noted that she commands more worship, prayer and attention among Catholics than Jesus does.

I can't help but think of Norman Bates.

Mother.....

rstrats · Jun 30, 2019

KenS,
re: "Yes, there were times that he might have sounded perturbed but what was the end result?"

According to scripture the Messiah only spoke to Mary 3 times . The 1st time the Messiah spoke to her didn't result in anything other than Mary not understanding what He was saying (Luke 3:50).

The 2nd time, Mary told the Messiah that the wine had runout. The Messiah responded: "... Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.( John 2:3 and 4)? But later He performed His first miracle so His hour must have come sometime between verse 4 and verse 7.

And the 3rd time, the Messiah told Mary to look at her son. And then He told her son to look at his mother. After that the son decided to invite his mother into his home (John 19:26 and 27).

re: "And did he not follow his mom's request for wine?"

Actually she didn't make a request. She merely reported to Him that the wine had run out.

re: "And did he not give to John the care of his mom?"

I don't know. Scripture doesn't say.

The Anointed · Jun 30, 2019

JJ50 said:
Thanks for called me kid, that is really kind of you seeing I shall be 70 next year. I have probably read that book from cover to cover many more times than you, but without wearing rose coloured spectacles and with an unquestioning attitude like yours.

You're still a kid to me, who turns 77 this month, and I very much doubt if you have read the scripture as manY times as I. The only difference between yourself and I, is that I have the ability to comprehend that WHICH I READ.

The Anointed · Jun 30, 2019

exchemist said:
This poster has a preoccupation with some crank theory or other to do with Mary the wife of Clopas. Give him half a chance and this is what you will get, hoping you will take the bait, query it and thereby allow him to expatiate on his theory. (I've been through it once.)

As you say, Mary, or Maryam, or Miriam, seems to have been and remains a common name in the Levant.

Nice to see you agreeing with one like yourself, who refuses to accept the truths as revealed in the scriptures.

But if you believe I have a preoccupation with some crank theory, then prove me wrong, by revealing how many women by the name Mary were at the crucifixion, burial, and empty tomb of Jesus, who after his resurrection, appeared to Mary Magdalene and his mother first, then the first males to whom he appeared, were Cleophas the husband of Mary, and his brother Simeon/Simon.

exchemist · Jul 1, 2019

The Anointed said:
Nice to see you agreeing with one like yourself, who refuses to accept the truths as revealed in the scriptures.

But if you believe I have a preoccupation with some crank theory, then prove me wrong, by revealing how many women by the name Mary were at the crucifixion, burial, and empty tomb of Jesus, who after his resurrection, appeared to Mary Magdalene and his mother first, then the first males to whom he appeared, were Cleophas the husband of Mary, and his brother Simeon/Simon.

Exactly as predicted - complete with the classic, "prove me wrong", I see: the cry of the crank down the ages.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

The Anointed · Jul 1, 2019

exchemist said:
Exactly as predicted - complete with the classic, "prove me wrong", I see: the cry of the crank down the ages.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

And you, who are proven to be biblically ignorant, can not prove, that there were more than two women by the name Mary at the crucifixion, the burial, and the empty tomb of Jesus according to the four gospels.

And you are apparently afraid to even make an attempt to do so, as you know that you will be proven to be the biblical ignorant person that you are.

According to the Subject Guide of Young's Analytical Concordance to the bible, the husband of Mary is 'Cleophas' the masculine of Cleopatra, which in Greek carries the meaning (OF A RENOWN FATHER) and Cleophas is one and the same person as Alpheaus, which name in Aramaic also means (OF A RENOWN FATHER).

And Alpheaus, who is in fact Cleophas, is the father of James the brother of Jesus, born of the same womb.

James the brother of Jesus, was the first to sit on the Episcopal Throne of the church of the circumcision in Jerusalem, who after his death at the hands of the same Sadducee sect who had his brother Jesus killed, was succeeded by another brother, Simeon of Cleophas.

Shall we continue?

exchemist · Jul 1, 2019

The Anointed said:
And you, who are proven to be biblically ignorant, can not prove, that there were more than two women by the name Mary at the crucifixion, the burial, and the empty tomb of Jesus according to the four gospels.

And you are apparently afraid to even make an attempt to do so, as you know that you will be proven to be the biblical ignorant person that you are.

According to the Subject Guide of Young's Analytical Concordance to the bible, the husband of Mary is 'Cleophas' the masculine of Cleopatra, which in Greek carries the meaning (OF A RENOWN FATHER) and Cleophas is one and the same person as Alpheaus, which name in Aramaic also means (OF A RENOWN FATHER).

And Alpheaus, who is in fact Cleophas, is the father of James the brother of Jesus, born of the same womb.

James the brother of Jesus, was the first to sit on the Episcopal Throne of the church of the circumcision in Jerusalem, who after his death at the hands of the same Sadducee sect who had his brother Jesus killed, was succeeded by another brother, Simeon of Cleophas.

Shall we continue?

I know you are aching to bore us all to death with your crank notions, but...sorry, find someone else to indulge you.

sealchan · Jul 1, 2019

PruePhillip said:
People who spout these beliefs are essentially saying they don't believe in the bible.
If God is the "Father" to those who communed with Him or wrote of Him in the bible
then he's the Father - period.
And if God is somehow converted to a Mother figure then the authors of this confusion
are really saying the bible is a fabrication that can be further fabricated.
If God is Mother then perhaps Jesus is Jesse and the Devil is Nicolette... no wait, the
Devil will always be male to those who fiddle with the written texts.

It was written by human beings who took existing stories and composed a new yet sincere understanding of what they believed the highest divinity to consist of even as the powers that be determined what was and what was not acceptable in that regard.

I believe that there is great spiritual knowledge in the Bible as great as any other spiritual epic. I also believe that it was written with a great and subtle literary craft. But I do not believe in it...I believe in God.

sealchan · Jul 1, 2019

JJ50 said:
It is much more likely Mary got pregnant before marriage by Joseph or another guy. The idea of a god, which probably doesn't exist, getting her up the duff is not credible in the slightest. I reckon the virgin birth story was concocted to cover up the unfortunate conception of Jesus.

The virgin birth story is a popular motif in the origin of gifted individuals across many cultures.

metis · Jul 1, 2019

The Anointed said:
When Jesus was on the cross, Jesus said to the apostle John, "take thee thy mother", and that reference was to Mary the wife of Cleophas, who is one and the same person as Alphaeus the father of James the brother of Jesus and the younger of Mary's sons.

John 19[25] So the soldiers did this. But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Mag'dalene.
[26] When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son!"
[27] Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.

So, no, it's clearly a reference to Jesus' mother Mary.

sealchan · Jul 1, 2019

The Anointed said:
And you, who are proven to be biblically ignorant, can not prove, that there were more than two women by the name Mary at the crucifixion, the burial, and the empty tomb of Jesus according to the four gospels.

And you are apparently afraid to even make an attempt to do so, as you know that you will be proven to be the biblical ignorant person that you are.

According to the Subject Guide of Young's Analytical Concordance to the bible, the husband of Mary is 'Cleophas' the masculine of Cleopatra, which in Greek carries the meaning (OF A RENOWN FATHER) and Cleophas is one and the same person as Alpheaus, which name in Aramaic also means (OF A RENOWN FATHER).

And Alpheaus, who is in fact Cleophas, is the father of James the brother of Jesus, born of the same womb.

James the brother of Jesus, was the first to sit on the Episcopal Throne of the church of the circumcision in Jerusalem, who after his death at the hands of the same Sadducee sect who had his brother Jesus killed, was succeeded by another brother, Simeon of Cleophas.

Shall we continue?

I haven't before looked at a comparison of the four gospels on this matter but I have found a wiki article that provides a concise comparison.

Women at the crucifixion - Wikipedia

Apparently, like the rest of the story, there are similarities and differences. Only one Gospel appears to make the explicit claim that Jesus' mother was there. That was John's creative addition to the narrative.

PruePhillip · Jul 1, 2019

sealchan said:
It was written by human beings who took existing stories and composed a new yet sincere understanding of what they believed the highest divinity to consist of even as the powers that be determined what was and what was not acceptable in that regard.

I believe that there is great spiritual knowledge in the Bible as great as any other spiritual epic. I also believe that it was written with a great and subtle literary craft. But I do not believe in it...I believe in God.

Yes, God spoke of the fall of religion in the latter days. No more the candle, no more
the voice of the bride and bridegroom - just a cage of hateful and unclean birds. That's
now.
Jesus said the Jews will be driven out and persecuted until the Gentiles time is finished,
and that's now because Jerusalem is back in Jewish hands.
Jacob said there will be a nation of the Jews and a monarchy, but it will end with the
coming of the Messiah. The fate of the Jews after that is well documented - and that will
be the fate of us Gentiles now I would suggest.
The bible had enormous insights that didn't come from literary geniuses.

sealchan · Jul 1, 2019

metis said:
John 19[25] So the soldiers did this. But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Mag'dalene.
[26] When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son!"
[27] Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.

So, no, it's clearly a reference to Jesus' mother Mary.

This does seem to indicate the idea of John's that Mary was not just Jesus' mother but the mother of all who were faithful. John's gospel was the latest written so perhaps we see just how early an especial appreciation of Mary was emerging in the emerging Christian faith.

Johns gospel no doubt drew inspiration from the community he was writing for as well as from his own inspiration.

PruePhillip · Jul 1, 2019

sealchan said:
I haven't before looked at a comparison of the four gospels on this matter but I have found a wiki article that provides a concise comparison.

Women at the crucifixion - Wikipedia

Apparently, like the rest of the story, there are similarities and differences. Only one Gospel appears to make the explicit claim that Jesus' mother was there. That was John's creative addition to the narrative.

How do you know of a "creative addition" from John. Are you saying he was a liar
and that you have some wonderful insight?

metis · Jul 1, 2019

sealchan said:
This does seem to indicate the idea of John's that Mary was not just Jesus' mother but the mother of all who were faithful. John's gospel was the latest written so perhaps we see just how early an especial appreciation of Mary was emerging in the emerging Christian faith.

Johns gospel no doubt drew inspiration from the community he was writing for as well as from his own inspiration.

I underlined the parts that show that Jesus was referring to his mother, not anyone else's. However, as you say above, it may also have a symbolic meaning as well, but I'm less certain that this was the original intent.

sealchan · Jul 1, 2019

PruePhillip said:
Yes, God spoke of the fall of religion in the latter days. No more the candle, no more
the voice of the bride and bridegroom - just a cage of hateful and unclean birds. That's
now.
Jesus said the Jews will be driven out and persecuted until the Gentiles time is finished,
and that's now because Jerusalem is back in Jewish hands.
Jacob said there will be a nation of the Jews and a monarchy, but it will end with the
coming of the Messiah. The fate of the Jews after that is well documented - and that will
be the fate of us Gentiles now I would suggest.
The bible had enormous insights that didn't come from literary geniuses.

The Bible has a grounding in the idea that Gods Will and our desire to persist against the amoral backdrop of Gods creation is one and the same. Human values such as birthright, tradition, rules and regulations are a tool but not an end according to the Bible. By paying attention and not falling into the illusion of political power, materialism or egotism we can survive and thrive. It is at its heart an idea as elegant as any which does not need to carry any baggage . But those who believe the Bible literally have mistaken the Word for the baggage IMO.

The story, the rules they point to God, but they do not define God except in contradictory ways which the authors often cleverly incorporate through their method of using story. This raises our understanding of God to the highest level...that of capturing in words that which is ultimately a mystery.

sealchan · Jul 1, 2019

PruePhillip said:
How do you know of a "creative addition" from John. Are you saying he was a liar
and that you have some wonderful insight?

I am postulating one based on the difference between John's gospel and that of the other gospels and of the relative time in which it was written.

The mother of Jesus

Well-Known Member

¡pɹᴉǝM ʎɐʇS

Veteran Member

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Veteran Member

Well-Known Member

Veteran Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

aged ecumenical anthropologist

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

aged ecumenical anthropologist

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member