Nowhere in the Bible does it say or infer that mary the Mother of Christ...

Catholicus said:

People claiming to be guided by he Holy Spirit often reach diametrically opposed conclusions.

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I don't expect the Holy Spirit to give my today's lottery numbers , but I have experienced the Holy Spirit in my life that eventually led me back to the Church. It's a long story that I'll spare ya since it spanned over two years, and it took quite a while and a lot of praying to try and put together what was happening to me and why it was happening.

Catholicus said:

Which is why a visible teaching Church with Divine Authority is needed.

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As we've sometimes painfully seen, "Divine Authority" can sometimes be wrong or misused, but I fully agree with you that we need such authority.

A former Trappist monk while in Ireland, and now a priest here in the States who is a friend of mine, used this analogy: The Church (authority) is like a Roman traffic cop using his arms and hands to tell the traffic which way they should go, but only some will head him, some will ignore him, and some will only partially pay attention to him. If nothing goes wrong, there's no problem, but if a conflict occurs, then the cop is there to try and sort things out.

An excellent book that covers this quite well, imo, is "May Your (Informed) Conscience Be Your Guide)", although I don't know if it still is in publication. The author's main point is that even though the Church is our authority that should definitely be listened to, ultimately it's our choice in regards to what we may choose to believe and/or act upon. But the author then concludes that if we're in doubt as to what that choice should be, go with the Church's teaching.

Catholicus said:

The Gospels state the Miracle of the Loaves and Fishes as exactly-narrated event, not as metaphor.

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This story is a provision wonder, similar to Jesus providing wine for a wedding and great catches of fish. There are stories of wonderful provision of food in the early church's scripture (manna in the wilderness; Elijah and the widow; Elisha feeds a hundred with twenty barley loaves). The last of these stories is closest in detail to the Gospel story.

Just as Jesus made possible the great catch of fish when Peter was first called to the task of "catching people,' so he will now enable the twelve to fed the people who have been gathered. In verse 17, the narrator emphasizes that there are 12 baskets of food left over. Each of the apostles now has a supply for future nourishment of those gathered through their mission.

In 12:41-46 Jesus equates the image of feeding with congregational care. The image refers to the responsibility of church leaders for those in their care. The feeding of the five thousand has the same symbolic overtones. Support for this view also comes from 22:24-27, where Jesus, in his farewell discourse, asks the apostles to understand themselves in the future as table servers.

There is detailed description of Jesus' actions with the food in verse 16. The significance of these actions appears when we note that they are very similar to Jesus' actions at the Last Supper and the Emmaus meal. This similarity ties these three meals together and also relates them to the early church's meal celebration, even though Jesus in Luke 9 is sharing food with people who do not recognize him as Messiah.

The scene also gains depth of meaning through the eschatological associations of meals in Luke. The statement in verse 17 that the "ate and were filled" uses the same verb (chortazo) as the beatitude in 6:21. The abundant food for the five thousand not only anticipates the church's meals but also this eschatological meal."

(Robert Tannehill, Abingdon New Testament Commentaries: Luke [Abingdon Press, Nashville, 1996] pp 154-156)

The periscope is rife with metaphor -- and metaphor borrowed from other texts.

Catholicus said:

It isn't stated, merely implied.

Where is the doctrine of the Trinity stated explicitly in Scripture ?

Mary's sinlessness is, however, stated by Catholic doctrine - which has equal divine authority as Scripture has.

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Yea, well each to their own. I neither believe that Mary was sinless or in the supposed triad God as taught by the Roman Church of Emperor Constantine, which was established in the fourth century, and has nothing to do with the Jesus as taught by the apostles.

There are five women recorded in the genealogy of Joseph ben Jacob, who married the already pregnant Mary, and they are Tamah, who had sex with her Father-in-law and bore to him a set of twins, then there is Rahab, the Madam of a whore house in Jericho, who married Salmon to who she bore Boaz, then Ruth, who with her sexual cunning lured Boaz into marriage, to who she bore 'Obed,' then Bathsheba who committed adultery with King David and later bore to him his successor 'Solomon," then last of all, Mary the daughter of Alexander Helios=Heli, who bore the child Jesus to her half brother Joseph the son of Heli.

Those particular sins of these women were committed beneath the shadow of the wings of the Lord of Spirits.

Galatians 4: 29; “Yet at that time the child born according to the flesh (Ishmael) persecuted him (Isaac) who was born according to the promise and the Power/workings of the holy spirit.” It was through the workings of the Holy Spirit that the barren Sarah conceived the child of God’s promise, who was the biological son of her half-brother Abraham. And it was through the power=workings of the Holy Spirit that Mary conceived the child of God’s promise, who was the biological son of her half-brother, ‘Joseph the son of Alexander Helios.’

sooda said:

Sounds like a lot of happy horse **** to me.

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So what.

Shad said:

Nope. Only logically possible. God can not make a squared circle for example.

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That's an old omnipotance paradox.
Christians know God exists beyond our three dimensional physical realm. God is omniscient and omnipotent. He exists within and beyond our realm.
Whereas we exist on this three dimensional plane and are taught what basic shapes appear to be.And those exist in our physical reality because our minds have been programmed to understand geometric shapes. And their limits. Such as that squared circle.
However, God is not constrained by such realities. And therefore if God chose God could make a squared circle. Because he is not bound by our three dimensional laws. He exists beyond them.

SugarOcean said:

That's an old omnipotance paradox.

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Yes. I reference it in one of the posts explaining my point.

Christians know God exists beyond our three dimensional physical realm. God is omniscient and omnipotent. He exists within and beyond our realm.
Whereas we exist on this three dimensional plane and are taught what basic shapes appear to be.And those exist in our physical reality because our minds have been programmed to understand geometric shapes. And their limits. Such as that squared circle.
However, God is not constrained by such realities. And therefore if God chose God could make a squared circle. Because he is not bound by our three dimensional laws. He exists beyond them.

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It does not matter as per the definitions of the shapes and that is it logically impossible in any reality due to tosedefinition. You just ignore it that fact. Look up what square and circle mean.

Jonathan Bailey said:

was conceived and born without original sin nor that she was absolutely free of any personal sin. I do believe she was a woman of distinct honor, having been deemed fit by God to bear His only begotten Son, and was saved and that she is forever in heaven. The Roman Catholics can't accept that the "Mother of God" is anything less than perfect and absolutely sinless from her own conception. God made Jesus perfect and sinless in the womb of Mary and free of original sin by the miracle of His divine workings. The holy seed (sperm) of God makes Jesus Christ perfect and absolutely sinless.


Does the Bible say that Mary, mother of Jesus, was born without sin?


To me, Mary herself addressed this issue in the words of the Magnificat (the song of praise that she spoke in response to the greeting of her cousin Elizabeth (the mother of John the Baptist) when Mary went to visit her immediately after Mary had been informed by the angel Gabriel that she was to be the mother of the Messiah). Mary began by saying (Luke 1:46-47), "My soul exalts the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior." If she had truly been without both original and actual sin, she would have had no need to either have or acknowledge a Savior.

She also said in Luke 1:48-50, "For, behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed, for He (God) has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.” Had Mary been totally without sin, she would have had no need to either receive or accept mercy (that is, undeserved favor or forgiveness) from God.

In addition, the Bible records occasions when Mary was mildly rebuked by Jesus Himself for actions or requests that, had she been totally without sin and shared Jesus' complete knowledge of and devotion to His Father's will, she should not have performed or asked (Luke 2:49-50 and John 2:3-4).

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Actually, the bible does say Mary was without sin. Do remember though that it was through Adam that sin entered the world.

In Luke we're told an angel appeared to Mary and told her she had been chosen by God to bear to life the Messiah.
Mary , in that scripture in Luke 1:28 we are told that Mary was highly favored.
Luke 1:28 [RSV]: "And he came to her and said, 'Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you!'"


Strong's Hebrew Greek: charitoo
Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
charitoō
1) to make graceful
1a) charming, lovely, agreeable
2) to peruse with grace, compass with favour
3) to honour with blessings

Part of Speech: verb

Relation: from Charis G5485 (grace)
1) grace
1a) that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech
2) good will, loving-kindness, favour
2a) of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues
3) what is due to grace
3a) the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace
3b) the token or proof of grace, benefit
3b1) a gift of grace
3b2) benefit, bounty
4) thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward
Part of Speech: noun feminine

Relation: from Chairo G5463

Charitoo is a passive participle of kecharitomenem "highly favored".

Mary was then highly favored or, grace filled, given grace. (See above)
In Christianity Christians are saved by God's grace. God's grace allows for us, indwelt by his Holy Spirit, to live holy and righteous lives without sin because we are no longer in that category of sinner.
Mary was highly favored, kecharitomenem, grace filled and that is why the angel told Mary she was chosen to bear the Messiah into the world.
She was filled with God's grace, saved, sinless, and therefore was able to bear Christ to life.

Shad said:

Yes. I reference it in one of the posts explaining my point.



It does not matter as per the definitions of the shapes and that is it logically impossible in any reality due to tosedefinition. You just ignore it that fact. Look up what square and circle mean.

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Look up what "God" means.
When God exists outside this reality and is omnipotent, God can do anything. God is not limited by the laws of our dimension. God created the dimensional laws but he is not constrained by them.

sooda said:

Luke's account of what Mary said is pure fiction.. Its mythmaking and you deserve to know why.

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You hope it is.
Sadly, you believe Christians deserve to be mocked and ridiculed because they hold faith.

sooda said:

Most of us don't believe in original sin or inherited sin.. Neither Jews nor Muslims buy into that.

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There are Christian denominations that do not believe in original sin. Baptists are one such group.

SugarOcean said:

That's an old omnipotance paradox.
Christians know God exists beyond our three dimensional physical realm. God is omniscient and omnipotent. He exists within and beyond our realm.
Whereas we exist on this three dimensional plane and are taught what basic shapes appear to be.And those exist in our physical reality because our minds have been programmed to understand geometric shapes. And their limits. Such as that squared circle.
However, God is not constrained by such realities. And therefore if God chose God could make a squared circle. Because he is not bound by our three dimensional laws. He exists beyond them.

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Can God create an object which cannot be moved by any power?

If he can, then even God would not be able to move that object, proving that he cannot do everything..

If He can move that unmovable object, that would prove that he cannot create an object which cannot be moved by any power.

SugarOcean said:

You hope it is.
Sadly, you believe Christians deserve to be mocked and ridiculed because they hold faith.


There are Christian denominations that do not believe in original sin. Baptists are one such group.

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Luke was never in Palestine nor did he ever know Jesus..Most scholars thin he lived in Antioch and he knows NOTHNG about the geography of Israel and Judah

sooda said:

Luke was never in Palestine nor did he ever know Jesus..Most scholars thin he lived in Antioch and he knows NOTHNG about the geography of Israel and Judah

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Your scholars must know as little as you do.
The Gospels original authors were anonymous.
The first gospel was the Book of Mark. Written between 66 and 70 AD.
The teachings of Christ prior to their being copied down were delivered verbally. Or, it was an "oral tradition".

Luke was in Palestine.
And Luke knew Jesus as much as Saul did since they were traveling companions. Luke was a physician and historian.

Furthermore, Luke would be able to account of the infancy narrative because it was well known as to how Messiah came to be.

Mary: Mother and Disciple of Christ Jesus the Lord | J.I. Packer

This essay is a plain Bible study focusing on the first two chapters of Luke’s gospel (the annunciation, Elizabeth’s welcome, Mary’s song, the birth narrative, the circumcision narrative, and Jesus in the Temple at age 12), plus Luke 8:19“21 (Jesus’ spiritual family), and on two passages from John’s gospel, 2:1“12 (the Cana wedding) and 19:25“27 (John to care for Mary)....Continues at link.


You often seem prone to citing so called scholars in your refutation of scripture . Interestingly enough you never post links to your so called scholarship sources.

The Anointed said:

Can God create an object which cannot be moved by any power?

If he can, then even God would not be able to move that object, proving that he cannot do everything..

If He can move that unmovable object, that would prove that he cannot create an object which cannot be moved by any power.

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The omnipotent paradox now.
Everything that exists exists due to being created of and from and by source. I.E. creator, God.
It is impossible for God to create something from God's own energy and then not be able to move that which exists of and from God.

These can be found all about the web. They're a magnet for unbelievers because unbelievers have no capacity to understand the meaning of "God" or creator or source of all that is. Apparently. And yet, the effort reiterates the prior observation.

SugarOcean said:

Look up what "God" means.
When God exists outside this reality and is omnipotent, God can do anything. God is not limited by the laws of our dimension. God created the dimensional laws but he is not constrained by them.

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Irrelevant. Look up what a square and circle are

Shad said:

Irrelevant. Look up what a square and circle are

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Ah, now it's irrelevant.
Well, that's the way to go when you're a strong atheist I guess.

SugarOcean said:

The omnipotent paradox now.
Everything that exists exists due to being created of and from and by source. I.E. creator, God.
It is impossible for God to create something from God's own energy and then not be able to move that which exists of and from God.

These can be found all about the web. They're a magnet for unbelievers because unbelievers have no capacity to understand the meaning of "God" or creator or source of all that is. Apparently. And yet, the effort reiterates the prior observation.

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So you agree that God cannot create an object which He cannot move. Therefore God cannot do 'EVERYTHING.'

SugarOcean said:

Ah, now it's irrelevant.

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Nope those definitions of the shapes which you want to ignore for magical thinking.

Well, that's the way to go when you're a strong atheist I guess.

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No. I just understand logic and definitions better than you do.

Sugar Ocean,
re: "God is omniscient..."

Does that mean He knows before He creates an individual that He will eventually be casting the individual into the lake of fire?

Shad said:

Nope those definitions of the shapes which you want to ignore for magical thinking.

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I was wondering when, 'magical thinking', was going to be thrown out. No other way to respond to my observation? At a loss?

No. I just understand logic and definitions better than you do.

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Yes, that's apparent your incapacity to comprehend origin of Geometry.

rstrats said:

Sugar Ocean,
re: "God is omniscient..."

Does He know before He creates an individual that He will eventually be casting the individual into the lake of fire?

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I read your avatar. What do you think?
The names of the redeemed were written in the Lambs Book of Life before the world was created. And no one can erase them from there.
Have you paid attention to this forum? To the sometimes blatant screaming hostility expressed for God , the word, and the faithful?
Do you think such voices screech because there's a glimmer of hope within that re-cognizes their source? Their connection?
Or rather, do they rail now because deep inside their inner core they know their destiny. And scream now so as to be heard when one day they never again shall be.