Am I Wrong To Think That There Is A God, But Not Operating In This World

Aupmanyav · Jun 27, 2019

Lionel Refson said:
The point is you also believe that life is pain and suffering until we are re-united with God/Brahamin. The pleasures of the flesh and therefore of this world are but an illusion !

"Nasti, Nasti, Na Nasti Kincana" (No, no, no, not in the least).
I do not believe that life in pain. It is a wonderful mixture of sour and sweet. Life should be borne bravely when it is tough and enjoyed thoroughly when it is benign, in all its four aspects - Artha (Money), Kama (Sex), Dharma (Duties) and Moksha (Understanding life). Not just pleasures but even the sufferings are illusions, but these are what make life. There is no question of re-uniting, we are never separate. I am fully Brahman and so you are too.

stvdv · Jun 27, 2019

Lionel Refson said:
the Abrahamic religions are mere human inventions. the exception was we should not eat the blood of live animals

stvdv said:
I had never been able to understand why God, asking us not to judge, accepted Abel's offering and rejected Cain's offering
Even more so:
Considering in Genesis 1:29 human is meant to be vegetarian/vegan, this accepting Cain's animal offering is kind of unexpected
After reading this thread and your reply, finally it does make sense why this way

Lionel Refson said:
IMO Yes it does make sense to me as well and it is another interpretation, one I have missed. I have answered Aupmanyav a different way

To reconcile all, I can only come up with 1 solution.
God rejecting Cain, and accepting Abel is not about "judging", but about teaching lessons
What is the lesson? Hypothetical Genesis is true:
1) Then vegan is the way to go ...
2) If someone gives you something ... don't give it back pretending you give something (that's foolish)
* Abel offering animal to God, means he is not eating it (once given away, it's not yours anymore + non-violence is good)
* Cain is offering fruits to God, but God reminded him of Genesis 1:29 (fruits are for humans to eat)
* God gives humans fruits to eat. So it is totally "not done" to pretend you have something to offer to God (that's really "messed up" thinking)

JJ50 · Jun 27, 2019

stvdv said:
To reconcile all, I can only come up with 1 solution.
God rejecting Cain, and accepting Abel is not about "judging", but about teaching lessons
What is the lesson? Hypothetical Genesis is true:
1) Then vegan is the way to go ...
2) If someone gives you something ... don't give it back pretending you give something (that's foolish)
* Abel offering animal to God, means he is not eating animal (if you give away, esp. to God ... once given away, it's not yours anymore)
* Cain is offering fruits to God, but God reminded him of Genesis 1:29 (fruits are for humans to eat)
* God gives humans fruits to eat. So it is totally "not done" to pretend you have something to offer to God (that's really "messed up" thinking)

Well that in one way of looking at it, I suppose. I could never be a vegan in a million years.

stvdv · Jun 27, 2019

JJ50 said:
Well that in one way of looking at it, I suppose. I could never be a vegan in a million years.

God took good care of that ... "you could never follow the Bible in a million years either"

... I guess

JJ50 · Jun 27, 2019

stvdv said:
God took good care of that ... "you could never follow the Bible in a million years either" ... I guess

You have a very active imagination if you equate veganism with the Biblical god character.

Terrywoodenpic · Jun 27, 2019

maybe Got is the operating system not the operator.

stvdv · Jun 27, 2019

JJ50 said:
I could never be a vegan in a million years

I don't know for myself "in a million years" ... but for today I could not manage to "go vegan"

stvdv · Jun 27, 2019

Terrywoodenpic said:
maybe Got is the operating system not the operator.

Got the operating system
God the operator
Mabye true

Lionel Refson · Jun 27, 2019

Aupmanyav said:
"Nasti, Nasti, Na Nasti Kincana" (No, no, no, not in the least).
I do not believe that life in pain. It is a wonderful mixture of sour and sweet. Life should be borne bravely when it is tough and enjoyed thoroughly when it is benign, in all its four aspects - Artha (Money), Kama (Sex), Dharma (Duties) and Moksha (Understanding life). Not just pleasures but even the sufferings are illusions, but these are what make life. There is no question of re-uniting, we are never separate. I am fully Brahman and so you are too.

Accept my apologies for my error re your beliefs. I shouldn't post when thinking of other things. However for me life is suffering, but pre-armed with that I never suffer.
We agree that life is an illusion, I think .

dybmh · Jun 27, 2019

stvdv said:
To reconcile all, I can only come up with 1 solution.
God rejecting Cain, and accepting Abel is not about "judging", but about teaching lessons
What is the lesson? Hypothetical Genesis is true:
1) Then vegan is the way to go ...
2) If someone gives you something ... don't give it back pretending you give something (that's foolish)
* Abel offering animal to God, means he is not eating it (once given away, it's not yours anymore + non-violence is good)
* Cain is offering fruits to God, but God reminded him of Genesis 1:29 (fruits are for humans to eat)
* God gives humans fruits to eat. So it is totally "not done" to pretend you have something to offer to God (that's really "messed up" thinking)

There is a lot of Rabbinic commentary on this story. What made most sense to me, IMHO, is that Cain's offering represented quantity and Abel's offering represented quality.

Lionel Refson · Jun 27, 2019

stvdv said:
To reconcile all, I can only come up with 1 solution.
God rejecting Cain, and accepting Abel is not about "judging", but about teaching lessons
What is the lesson? Hypothetical Genesis is true:
1) Then vegan is the way to go ...
2) If someone gives you something ... don't give it back pretending you give something (that's foolish)
* Abel offering animal to God, means he is not eating it (once given away, it's not yours anymore + non-violence is good)
* Cain is offering fruits to God, but God reminded him of Genesis 1:29 (fruits are for humans to eat)
* God gives humans fruits to eat. So it is totally "not done" to pretend you have something to offer to God (that's really "messed up" thinking)

Not for me I am afraid
You have to start with the belief that God knows all things, present and future, so God knew exactly what Cain and Abel would offer and what was to transpire
Therefore the only conclusion has to be as i said earlier ......... Abel was sacrificed (as God knew Abel would be killed ) to show humanity the forgiveness of God. Abel loved God so much that this sacrifice would, to him not have been a sacrifice but a blessing. God knew that Cain would bring a meagre harvest, become jealous and kill Abel Cain was spared.......an example to us all and protected by a mark on his forehead. I know you will say how cruel that God set up Abel, but perhaps Abel still sits there happy to be blessed by God's side. IMO

As regards the vegan issue, the rules of Eden, no longer applied when we left the garden as we had freewill so IMO it is not relevant to the meaning behind the Cain and Abel story (though I am vegeterian )
I think you are holding your magnifying glass to close on this one!

dybmh · Jun 27, 2019

Lionel Refson said:
You have to start with the belief that God knows all things, present and future,

This is interesting to me, and please forgive me for interrupting?

My person feeling is that omniscience taken to this level naturally leads to a pessimistic negative opinion of God.

My own personal bias is towards optimism, and because of that I entertain the possibility that God's omnipotence allows for God to suspend omniscience allowing for freewill to flow in a more organic manner.

But that's just my opinion. I hope you don't mind that I'm sharing it.

Shad · Jun 27, 2019

Left Coast said:
I just want to point out to all the Christians on the forum that it was a theist who proposed we ban their religion.

Remarkably self-aware... maybe /s

Lionel Refson · Jun 27, 2019

dybmh said:
This is interesting to me, and please forgive me for interrupting?

My person feeling is that omniscience taken to this level naturally leads to a pessimistic negative opinion of God.

My own personal bias is towards optimism, and because of that I entertain the possibility that God's omnipotence allows for God to suspend omniscience allowing for freewill to flow in a more organic manner.

But that's just my opinion. I hope you don't mind that I'm sharing it.

Not at all, but i do not understand why you say that omniscience taken to this level naturally leads to a pessimistic negative opinion of God.? Why would it As you say we have complete freewill. My belief is that because of this freewill and self-awareness God watches us and cries sometimes and laughs at other times but never gets involved. To cause something out of this world to happen would destroy our freewill forever (ie God appearing etc). God never told us to worship or pray etc when God Blessed Noah and his sons..........but God could have! God can do whatever God wishes.

dybmh · Jun 27, 2019

Lionel Refson said:
why you say that omniscience taken to this level naturally leads to a pessimistic negative opinion of God.?

If it doesn't effect you this way, then it's probably a good thing.

That said, the logic proceeds like this:

Assumption: God knows everything past present and future.
Assumption: God has rules which need to be followed; else, there are negative consequences.

Implication: Because God knows everything past present and future, God also knows that many many people will not follow the rules and will be punished. Therefore God knows that people will be punished and does nothing to stop it.

Implication: Because God knows everything past present and future, God knows how evil and cruel people will be to each other and does nothing to stop it.

In this example: I understand that free-will is the cause of suffering. I understand that God is not explicitly choosing for people to suffer. But the idea that God is fully aware of the atrocities people engage in ( especially in God's name ), IMO, naturally leads a person to a pessimistic negative opinion of God.

Aupmanyav · Jun 27, 2019

Lionel Refson said:
I know you will say how cruel that God set up Abel, but perhaps Abel still sits there happy to be blessed by God's side.

No one has gone to heaven yet. That will be after the day of Judgment. Of course, Abel may be among the first batch reaching heaven.

Lionel Refson said:
God never told us to worship or pray etc.

"Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me"
Exodus 20

"I am the LORD thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.
Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the third and upon the fourth generation of them that hate Me."
Deuteronomy 5

IMHO, it is another way of saying that you pray none other but Me (YHWH).

blü 2 · Jun 27, 2019

Lionel Refson said:
Then i would go back to the Bible and re-read. Which is what I did!

Good luck with that.

Lionel Refson · Jun 27, 2019

dybmh said:
If it doesn't effect you this way, then it's probably a good thing.

That said, the logic proceeds like this:

Assumption: God knows everything past present and future.
Assumption: God has rules which need to be followed; else, there are negative consequences.

Implication: Because God knows everything past present and future, God also knows that many many people will not follow the rules and will be punished. Therefore God knows that people will be punished and does nothing to stop it.

Implication: Because God knows everything past present and future, God knows how evil and cruel people will be to each other and does nothing to stop it.

In this example: I understand that free-will is the cause of suffering. I understand that God is not explicitly choosing for people to suffer. But the idea that God is fully aware of the atrocities people engage in ( especially in God's name ), IMO, naturally leads a person to a pessimistic negative opinion of God.

I get it now. I asked myself for 47 years how God could let bad things happen . My conclusions are the title of this thread. I do not see what other conclusions there could be, if you believe there is a God.

Lionel Refson · Jun 27, 2019

Aupmanyav said:
No one has gone to heaven yet. That will be after the day of Judgment. Of course, Abel may be among the first batch reaching heaven.
Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me.
Exodus 20

I am the LORD thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.

Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the third and upon the fourth generation of them that hate Me,
Deuteronomy 5

I reject Exodus etc.........tribal self interest as you know.
heaven is a return to God, not heaven in the christian sense

dybmh · Jun 27, 2019

Lionel Refson said:
I get it now. I asked myself for 47 years how God could let bad things happen . My conclusions are the title of this thread. I do not see what other conclusions there could be, if you believe there is a God.

What other conclusions could there be?

hopeful, foolish, optimism: God suspends the omniscience and in this way experiences creation along with the created.

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