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Who will get to heaven?

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
"heaven"

Heaven is an English word while Quran is in Arabic language, so it is not there in literal terms.

heaven (n.)
Old English heofon "home of God," earlier "the visible sky, firmament," probably from Proto-Germanic *hibin-, a dissimilation of *himin- (source also of Low German heben, Old Norse himinn, Gothic himins, Old Frisian himul, Dutch hemel, German Himmel "heaven, sky"), which is of uncertain and disputed origin.

Perhaps it means literally "a covering," from a PIE root *kem- "to cover" (which also has been proposed as the source of chemise). Watkins derives it elaborately from PIE *ak- "sharp" via *akman- "stone, sharp stone," then "stony vault of heaven."

The English word is attested from late 14c. as "a heavenly place; a state of bliss." The plural use in sense of "sky" probably is from the Ptolemaic theory of space as composed of many spheres, but it also formerly was used in the same sense in the singular in Biblical language, as a translation of Hebrew plural shamayim. Heaven-sent (adj.) is attested from 1640s.
heaven | Origin and meaning of heaven by Online Etymology Dictionary

paradise (n.)
late 12c., "Garden of Eden," from Old French paradis "paradise, Garden of Eden" (11c.), from Late Latin paradisus, from Greek paradeisos "park, paradise, Garden of Eden," from an Iranian source similar to Avestan pairidaeza "enclosure, park" (Modern Persian and Arabic firdaus "garden, paradise"), compound of pairi- "around" (from PIE root *per- (1) "forward," hence "in front of, near, against, around") + diz "to make, to form (a wall)."

The first element is cognate with Greek peri "around, about" (see per), the second is from PIE root *dheigh- "to form, build."

The Greek word, originally used for an orchard or hunting park in Persia, was used in Septuagint to mean "Garden of Eden," and in New Testament translations of Luke xxiii.43 to mean "heaven" (a sense attested in English from c. 1200). Meaning "place like or compared to Paradise" is from c. 1300.

paradise | Origin and meaning of paradise by Online Etymology Dictionary

Regards
Thank you. I do not question your intelligence or understanding. I simple state again - I do not see a translation in Quran or Bible that uses "heaven" as a place where people go after death.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Thank you. I do not question your intelligence or understanding. I simple state again - I do not see a translation in Quran or Bible that uses "heaven" as a place where people go after death.
It is not an actual place like we have on Earth, it is a dimension that is timeless and placeless, but we will exist in some kind of form and in some kind of space.... What it will be like, nobody knows except God.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
It is not an actual place like we have on Earth, it is a dimension that is timeless and placeless, but we will exist in some kind of form and in some kind of space.... What it will be like, nobody knows except God.
Once again, this is all very nice and possibly true. But my question has not been answered. I do not care if heaven is a place or a demension or a state of mind. I am looking for a Bible verse that says anyone will go there. I still have noy found it.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
lostwanderingsoul said:
Thank you. I do not question your intelligence or understanding. I simple state again - I do not see a translation in Quran or Bible that uses "heaven" as a place where people go after death.
It is not an actual place like we have on Earth, it is a dimension that is timeless and placeless, but we will exist in some kind of form and in some kind of space.... What it will be like, nobody knows except God.
Exactly.
Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Thank you. I do not question your intelligence or understanding. I simple state again - I do not see a translation in Quran or Bible that uses "heaven" as a place where people go after death.
[23:16]
ثُمَّ اِنَّکُمۡ بَعۡدَ ذٰلِکَ لَمَیِّتُوۡنَ ﴿ؕ۱۶﴾
Then after that you must surely die.
[23:17]
ثُمَّ اِنَّکُمۡ یَوۡمَ الۡقِیٰمَۃِ تُبۡعَثُوۡنَ ﴿۱۷﴾
Then on the Day of Resurrection will you be raised up.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 23: Al-Mu'minun
Please see above.
Regards
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
[23:16]
ثُمَّ اِنَّکُمۡ بَعۡدَ ذٰلِکَ لَمَیِّتُوۡنَ ﴿ؕ۱۶﴾
Then after that you must surely die.
[23:17]
ثُمَّ اِنَّکُمۡ یَوۡمَ الۡقِیٰمَۃِ تُبۡعَثُوۡنَ ﴿۱۷﴾
Then on the Day of Resurrection will you be raised up.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 23: Al-Mu'minun
Please see above.
Regards
I agree with you completely my friend. We will be raised up. But many people believe we will be raised up to "heaven" and I am simply saying that nothing in sacred scriptures uses the word "heaven" I do not know why and thought someone might have ideas about this. Thanks for your words.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
All pretty nonsensical if you think about it logically.
Logically I find Adam and Eve were created to live forever on Earth.
Logically I find Angels were created to live forever in Heaven.
Logically to me God did Not create the visible realm of creation to turn the visible into the invisible.
Logically angels to remain in Heaven.
Logically humans to remain on Earth.
So, with the exception of people like those of Luke 22:28-30 the majority of mankind will remain on Earth.
Those few called to Heaven are only those described at Daniel 7:18.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I agree with you completely my friend. We will be raised up. But many people believe we will be raised up to "heaven" and I am simply saying that nothing in sacred scriptures uses the word "heaven" I do not know why and thought someone might have ideas about this. Thanks for your words.
I find those few like those of Luke 22:28-30 will reign with Christ as per Revelation 20:4, 6; Revelation 2:10; 5:9-10.
Christ reigns from Heaven.
Those called to Heaven are the ' brothers ' of Matthew 25:40; Luke 12:32.
The majority are the figurative ' sheep ' of Matthew 25:37; John 10:16.
The ' sheep ' are like the humble meek who will inherit the Earth as per Psalms 37:9-11,29; Matthew 5:5
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
While I agree, the concept of "before time" cannot be logically conceived. It's like trying to discuss negative length.
For each day we can think of we can think of a next day.
So, we can count both forwards and backwards forever and ever.
This is because ' eternity ' is in our hearts.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
That's if you believe Matthew Daniel etc are right,there have been many battles in meggido aka armageddon,last one in 1918 I think,it's possible there could be another of course given how things are in the middle East but no sign of anything supernatural.

Armageddon is the last war - Psalms 46:9
What precedes Armageddon is the great tribulation of Revelation 7:14,9.
What preceded the great tribulation is the 'final signal', so to speak, of 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3.
This is when the ' powers that be ' will be saying, "Peace and Security..." as the precursor to the coming great tribulation before Jesus, as Prince of Peace, ushers in global Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill.
What triggers the tribulation is when the political surprisingly turns on the corrupted religious world.
Even the United Nations see a hauntingly dangerous religious climate brewing in today's world.
With backing the U.N. can be strengthened to become God's arm of the law against such corrupted religions.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
I honestly don't know. I can't remember that far back.

What is 'the installation'?

Who are they really?

Have you done this? Did you gain or learn anything and if you did, what is it?


The quiet room exercise was for you to try in order for you to Discover who you really are. If you can block out the physical sensory input, what is left is you.

We are Spiritual beings in our true natures. Our physical bodies are no more than our transportation in the physical world. Being installed in a physical body locks us in the time-based causality nature of this universe. It's perfect for learning.

One is installed in their physical body after birth at the point when long term memories become possible. I guess for most just before long term memories are possible.
 

Jos

Well-Known Member
The quiet room exercise was for you to try in order for you to Discover who you really are. If you can block out the physical sensory input, what is left is you.
So you tried this exercise and all the things that you now believe was revealed to you?
We are Spiritual beings in our true natures. Our physical bodies are no more than our transportation in the physical world. Being installed in a physical body locks us in the time-based causality nature of this universe. It's perfect for learning.

One is installed in their physical body after birth at the point when long term memories become possible. I guess for most just before long term memories are possible.
Did God reveal this to you? How do you know this is true?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Once again, this is all very nice and possibly true. But my question has not been answered. I do not care if heaven is a place or a demension or a state of mind. I am looking for a Bible verse that says anyone will go there. I still have not found it.
I do not think you will find that in the Bible. ;)
Do you consider the Bible to be the only valid source of information?

I do not believe anyone can get to heaven, there are certain requirements...
To be clear, there are certain ways to ensure you will get into heaven, but God can allow into heaven anyone He darn well pleases, since God makes the final call, since God is omnipotent.

Here is what the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith said about heaven when he was asked about it by a believer:

"To 'get to heaven' as you say is dependent on two things--faith in the Manifestation of God in His Day, in other words in this age in Bahá'u'lláh; and good deeds, in other words living to the best of our ability a noble life and doing unto others as we would be done by. But we must always remember that our existence and everything we have or ever will have is dependent upon the mercy of God and His bounty, and therefore He can accept into His heaven, which is really nearness to Him, even the lowliest if He pleases. We always have the hope of receiving His mercy if we reach out for it."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, January 12, 1957)

From:
Lights of Guidance (second part): A Bahá'í Reference File
 

JJ50

Well-Known Member
Armageddon is the last war - Psalms 46:9
What precedes Armageddon is the great tribulation of Revelation 7:14,9.
What preceded the great tribulation is the 'final signal', so to speak, of 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3.
This is when the ' powers that be ' will be saying, "Peace and Security..." as the precursor to the coming great tribulation before Jesus, as Prince of Peace, ushers in global Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill.
What triggers the tribulation is when the political surprisingly turns on the corrupted religious world.
Even the United Nations see a hauntingly dangerous religious climate brewing in today's world.
With backing the U.N. can be strengthened to become God's arm of the law against such corrupted religions.

Christianity is corrupted by that sort of garbage!
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
So you tried this exercise and all the things that you now believe was revealed to you?

Did God reveal this to you? How do you know this is true?


Lessons are learned by Living it! Discovery takes will and work. There is so much right before your eyes. Are you waiting for things to come to you? Are you looking to Believe? Everything I have said can be Discovered by you without blindly believing or waiting to be convinced by others. Nothing is hidden. Your journey has never depended on me. I merely point you in a direction forward.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Christianity is corrupted by that sort of garbage!
It is not so much that Christianity is corrupted as that it is misguided...

For example, URAVIP2ME said: “as the precursor to the coming great tribulation before Jesus, as Prince of Peace, ushers in global Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill.”

Jesus is not the Prince of Peace. Christians believe that Isaiah 9:6-7 refers to Jesus, but it does not refer to Jesus.

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

These prophecies cannot refer to Jesus because Jesus disclaimed being the Mighty God when He called Himself “the Son of God” (John 5:18-47) and in those verses Jesus repudiates the charge that He claimed equality with God. Jesus disclaimed being the everlasting Father when He said, “my Father is greater than I” (John 14:28) and Jesus disclaimed being the Prince of Peace when He said, “I came not to send peace, but a sword” (Matthew 10:34). Jesus disclaimed bearing the government upon His shoulder when He said to “rend onto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's” (Mark 12:17, Matthew 22:21). Jesus disclaimed that He would establish a kingdom where he would rule with judgment and justice forever when He said, “My kingdom is not of this world” (John 18:36).

Jesus is not coming back to Earth to build a Kingdom of God as many Christians believe. I think they must have a reading comprehension problem:

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Thank you for trying but none of these verses uses the word heaven. Please feel free to try again.
I find the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus appeared before his God as per Hebrew 9:24.(see the words 'Heaven itself')
I think most people conclude that when Jesus says 'the world will see him no more' conclude Heaven at John 14:19.
I find ' New Jerusalem ' of Revelation 3:12; 21:2 is the New Jerusalem ' above ' as per Galatians 4:26.
So, since Pentecost for Christians it is ' spiritual Jerusalem ' or ' heavenly Jerusalem ' above ' - Galatians 4:26.
That heavenly rulership ' comes down ' just as heavenly Jesus in Heaven is the head of the Christian congregation.
Remember: we do Not pray for Heaven to come, but for God's kingdom to come ( thy kingdom come ).
Jesus is king of God's kingdom of Daniel 2:44 for a thousand years - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26.
This is why we are all invited to pray the invitation of Revelation 22:20 for Jesus to come !
Come and bring heavenly blessings to Earth such as described in Isaiah 35th chapter, Revelation 22:2.
For in Heaven there is No sickness and No death but here on Earth there is - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8.
Under Christ's reign over Earth ' enemy death ' will be No more on Earth just as there is No death in Heaven.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
It is not so much that Christianity is corrupted as that it is misguided...
For example, URAVIP2ME said: “as the precursor to the coming great tribulation before Jesus, as Prince of Peace, ushers in global Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill.”
Jesus is not the Prince of Peace. Christians believe that Isaiah 9:6-7 refers to Jesus, but it does not refer to Jesus.
Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
These prophecies cannot refer to Jesus because Jesus disclaimed being the Mighty God when He called Himself “the Son of God” (John 5:18-47) and in those verses Jesus repudiates the charge that He claimed equality with God. Jesus disclaimed being the everlasting Father when He said, “my Father is greater than I” (John 14:28) and Jesus disclaimed being the Prince of Peace when He said, “I came not to send peace, but a sword” (Matthew 10:34). Jesus disclaimed bearing the government upon His shoulder when He said to “rend onto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's” (Mark 12:17, Matthew 22:21). Jesus disclaimed that He would establish a kingdom where he would rule with judgment and justice forever when He said, “My kingdom is not of this world” (John 18:36).
Jesus is not coming back to Earth to build a Kingdom of God as many Christians believe. I think they must have a reading comprehension problem:
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

I find there is a BIG difference between Isaiah 9:6-7 referring to Jesus as Mighty God (and Not as Almighty God )
Remember: God is a title as Lord is a title - Psalms 110
Even the human judges at Psalms 82 are referred to as ' gods ' because they used God's judgement to judge.
Like those human judges, Jesus spoke in the role or capacity of being his God's representative or spokesman.

Of course Jesus is Not coming back to Earth just as we read and comprehend at John 14:19.
This is because Jesus is in Heaven with his God - Revelation 3:12; Hebrews 9:24.
What comes down to Earth is God's kingdom rule at the time of Daniel 2:44 which is Not of this world of badness.
In other words, God's kingdom government is No part of man-made governments or kingdoms.
Turn on the news and hear about the bad news of men's kingdoms or governments.
Pick up the Bible and read about the good news about God's kingdom government - Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8.

The reason Jesus is referred to as Everlasting Father is because the word father means: Life Giver.
Via the Resurrection Power given to Jesus is why Jesus will be Everlasting Father to the resurrected ones.
- Revelation 1:18.

Right now people who follow Jesus are hated as Matthew 10:22 states.
That is why Jesus brings a sword. Not a literal sword (Matthew 26:52; Revelation 13:10) but that those who choose to follow Jesus find that people will be against them.
Jesus comes as the future Prince of Peace at the coming time of Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16.
This is when the executional words from Jesus' mouth will rid the Earth of wickedness.
Only the wicked will be ' destroyed forever ' (Psalms 92:7) they will be brought to ruin - Revelation 11:18 B.
We are nearing the soon coming ' time of separation ' of Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.
Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will come to the ' rescue / deliverance / savior ' of right-hearted people.
Right-hearted people will come through the great tribulation of Revelation 7:14,9 as a great crowd of people.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
so a bad social trend had started up
and needed to be put down
flood techniques work but the trend returns
so maybe fire from heaven?

I find there is No fire from Heaven, but ' executional words ' from Jesus' mouth will rid the Earth of the wicked.
- Please notice Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16.
Those ruining Earth ( literal and moral ) will be brought to ruin - Revelation 11:18 B.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Strong says the Hebrew yom can mean:
afternoon, age, all, always, amount (of time), battle, birthday, Chronicles, completely, continually, course, daily, day, day of the days, day that the period, days ago, each day, entire, eternity, evening, ever in your life, fate, first, forever, forevermore, full, full year, future, holiday, later, length (of time), life, lifetime, long, midday, now, older, once, period, perpetually, present, recently, reign, ripe, short-lived, so long, some time, survived, time, times, today, usual, very old, when, when the day,, whenever, while, whole, year, yearly, yesterday.
So, the only thing we can say about Gen 1:5 is it was "a whole period of time." As reckoned by whom, we cannot know.

.... and I find ALL of the creative days are summed up by the single word ' day ' at Genesis 2:4.
God's ' rest day ' was still on going in the first century according to Hebrews 4:4-11.
And we have Not yet seen the 'day' mentioned at Proverbs 4:18
 
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