Why do atheist believe something can come from nothing?

leov said:

So far I do not recognize what is wrong?

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The Bible deals neither formally nor systematically with its subject.


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Skwim said:

The Bible deals neither formally nor systematically with its subject.

for·mal·ly
/ˈfôrməlē/
adverb: formally
in accordance with the rules of convention


sys·tem·at·i·cal·ly
adverb: systematically
according to a fixed plan or system; methodically.​

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I found all that in the Bible.

leov said:

I found all that in the Bible.

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Have a good day.

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Skwim said:

Have a good day.

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Night in my case, good night!

leov said:

People mistaken about what God’s purpose is. God would communicate with person in unmistakable ways. It is two different issues

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So, basically, you are saying that it is impossible that you are mistaken?



Sounds suspiciously like what those other folks would say, of which you think they are wrong.

We Never Know said:

"I'm talking about claims concerning the supernatural. About claims that reach "outside" of our observable universe."

Doesn't multi-universe reach outside our observable universe?
Didn't you say in post 701 that multi-universe is worthy to explore?

If they are outside of our observable universe, how are they worthy to explore or are you just picking and choosing to your likening?

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Maybe you should pay more attention and also read, and comprehend, the part where I also explain WHY it is worthy to explore, as opposed to religious claims.

Post 701 wasn't even written by me.

Road Warrior said:

I agree IC is nonsense. I've said so before. Weren't you paying attention? Are you just angry and looking for a fight?

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Then I feel like you aren't really playing nice or honest, as your responses to me that led upto this post, seem to have been tailored to make me believe otherwise, concerning your stance on ID


Why do atheist believe something can come from nothing?

==> in that post, you said that I was "just expressing my beliefs" when informing someone on IC being fallacious nonsense

Why do atheist believe something can come from nothing?

==> I noted it was not an opinion but factual. you then asked me to prove it.


In retrospect, it is true that you didn't exactly say that you disagreed... but between the lines of your post, it seems to me a case could be made that you are deliberatly trying to sow confusion concerning your stance. If you agree, you could have just agreed and perhaps elaborated.

No, instead, you just played dumb and tried to imply that my post was invalid since I was just expressing "beliefs" that I could likely not support, concerning IC.
I don't think you can blame me for the confusion you seem to have deliberatly sown.

TagliatelliMonster said:

So, basically, you are saying that it is impossible that you are mistaken?



Sounds suspiciously like what those other folks would say, of which you think they are wrong.

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I 've already said that this was a different issue. When God connects a person it is "unmistakable" , but we because of free will may ignore it or respond in some way (this is what 'faith' meant is Greek), one becomes a theist, but if one decodes further 'message' correctly or not depends on one's spiritual development.

leov said:

I 've already said that this was a different issue.

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It's not at all a different issue.
People claim to have received communication from God(s) all the time, including gods you don't even believe in.

Obviously, plenty of these people are wrong and haven't received any communication at all and are instead just delusional and/or mistaken.

This has to be the case, because they can't all be right (considering we're talking mutually exclusive gods here...). However, they can all be wrong!

My question to you is: how can one find out, or how can you find out, that you are not one of those people?

Responding with "I can't be wrong", is not exactly an answer.
Considering all those other people, which you agree are wrong, can say that as well.

One does not simply declare that one is correct. That's not how it works.

When God connects a person it is "unmistakable"

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Again, declaring it, does not make it so.
All those other people that you agree are wrong, are equally convinced as you are. They to consider it "unmistakable". So much so even that there are people out there that actually drowned their kids because they believed God ordered them to do so.

I don't think one would drown one's own kids, if one thinks that one might be mistaken about that instruction.............................

In fact, I'ld say it takes an extreme form of certainty to go down that road. Perhaps even a more extreme form then merely calling it "unmistakable".

, but we because of free will may ignore it or respond in some way (this is what 'faith' meant is Greek), one becomes a theist, but if one decodes further 'message' correctly or not depends on one's spiritual development.

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And it is impossible that you are incorrect about your interpretation or the communications you believe to have received?

How do you know?

TagliatelliMonster said:

It's not at all a different issue.
People claim to have received communication from God(s) all the time, including gods you don't even believe in.

Obviously, plenty of these people are wrong and haven't received any communication at all and are instead just delusional and/or mistaken.

This has to be the case, because they can't all be right (considering we're talking mutually exclusive gods here...). However, they can all be wrong!

My question to you is: how can one find out, or how can you find out, that you are not one of those people?

Responding with "I can't be wrong", is not exactly an answer.
Considering all those other people, which you agree are wrong, can say that as well.

One does not simply declare that one is correct. That's not how it works.



Again, declaring it, does not make it so.
All those other people that you agree are wrong, are equally convinced as you are. They to consider it "unmistakable". So much so even that there are people out there that actually drowned their kids because they believed God ordered them to do so.

I don't think one would drown one's own kids, if one thinks that one might be mistaken about that instruction.............................

In fact, I'ld say it takes an extreme form of certainty to go down that road. Perhaps even a more extreme form then merely calling it "unmistakable".



And it is impossible that you are incorrect about your interpretation or the communications you believe to have received?

How do you know?

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We need to narrow this subject "wrong about what?

leov said:

I know that you were not contacted or just did not notice.
"evil" God? How do you know that?

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It is based on simple moral philosophy: Deliberately creating harm to another, is pretty much considered 'evil' under all but the most malicious human cultures.

Even among capitalism.

And socialism is literally founded on treating everyone the same--which precludes treating individuals in an evil way.

To name two examples.

But. The god of the bible? Plays Special Favorites. Is deliberately obscure. Is maliciously indifferent to human suffering. Seems to take delight in being so obtuse, that the vast majority don't get the message.

Or else? Simply doesn't exist in the first place:

Because here's the thing: The results we see in the world? Are 100% indistinguishable from either a) a god who is maliciously indifferent or b) a god who isn't there at all.

THAT is how I conclude that if "god" is real? It must be Evil.

Remember: Might Does Not Make Right.

TagliatelliMonster said:

Then I feel like you aren't really playing nice or honest, as your responses to me that led upto this post, seem to have been tailored to make me believe otherwise, concerning your stance on ID....

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On the contrary, you've been on the attack projecting your beliefs onto me since the beginning. I haven't a clue what oddities are floating around in your mind. Example. My post then your response to me and my reply to you:

Road Warrior said:

As do many theists and believers. Being an atheist or theist doesn't mean a person can't be scientific....but it also doesn't mean they are. Some theists take the Bible literally, like YECs, and some atheists spend more time denouncing anyone who believes than studying the Universe.

IMO, if God created the Universe then God also created all of the rules and laws that govern that Universe. To study those laws and rules is divine, to deny them is to deny God's creation.

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TagliatelliMonster said:

There is exactly zero added value in claiming that "god" created the universe and its laws.
It makes no difference whatsoever in the study of these laws and the universe and everything it contains. Not a single shred of difference.

If anything, the only thing such an assertion might accomplish, is preventing progress....
Because someone who claims that, and truelly believes it, won't be asking and investigating the question "where did the universe come from?" or "how did the universe come to be?" or similar.

Why would they - they already have their answer: "god dun it".

This is why in science, we never assume the answers before asking and investigating the questions.

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Road Warrior said:

If your beliefs are truly factual then you should be able to prove them. Go for it. I'll wait.


BTW, you might want to inform @Bob the Unbeliever about not assuming answers.

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Others will certainly note your attack dog tactics and projections/loaded questions so it's not really a surprised that you would assume I supported IC even though I never have, never will nor have ever hinted that I do.

Bob the Unbeliever said:

It is based on simple moral philosophy: Deliberately creating harm to another, is pretty much considered 'evil' under all but the most malicious human cultures.

Even among capitalism.

And socialism is literally founded on treating everyone the same--which precludes treating individuals in an evil way.

To name two examples.

But. The god of the bible? Plays Special Favorites. Is deliberately obscure. Is maliciously indifferent to human suffering. Seems to take delight in being so obtuse, that the vast majority don't get the message.

Or else? Simply doesn't exist in the first place:

Because here's the thing: The results we see in the world? Are 100% indistinguishable from either a) a god who is maliciously indifferent or b) a god who isn't there at all.

THAT is how I conclude that if "god" is real? It must be Evil.

Remember: Might Does Not Make Right.

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You forgot what it started with even if it is an allegory: bicameral Cain murdered his brother.

leov said:

You do not understand “my God”.

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Oh, but I do-- all I have to do? Is look at how you treat others, whom you consider to not be a member of your Special Club.

Never forget: you are a representative of your god's allowed behavior.

The proof is that you continue to exist

Bob the Unbeliever said:

Oh, but I do-- all I have to do? Is look at how you treat others, whom you consider to not be a member of your Special Club.

Never forget: you are a representative of your god's allowed behavior.

The proof is that you continue to exist

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6"For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice,".
Is it what you know?

leov said:

You forgot what it started with even if it is an allegory: bicameral Cain murdered his brother.

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For a certain definition of the word "murder"... sure.

But. Astute observers easily see through the evil nature of the god of the story, and point out that Cain was maliciously set up by god, in order to fail.

The story is quite clear, that Able was the Special Favorite, and Cain was the Ignored Not-Special.

The bible is chock-full of such stories-- nearly every one, in fact, has a Special Favorite and the one who is to be the Victim -- erm-- "Bad Guy".

The motive for the "Bad Guys" is so thin, you could use it as a window.

That's one of multiple reasons why the bible is Evil, and we can safely conclude it's god is also Evil, as described by the bible.

Since the bible exists? If the bible's god also exists, it's safe to conclude it is Okay with the bible as written: Conclusion? Evil.

leov said:

6"For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice,".
Is it what you know?

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Yet... you continue to spew such hatred for anyone you consider unworthy....

... exactly as your bible commands you to do, too.

Bob the Unbeliever said:

For a certain definition of the word "murder"... sure.

But. Astute observers easily see through the evil nature of the god of the story, and point out that Cain was maliciously set up by god, in order to fail.

The story is quite clear, that Able was the Special Favorite, and Cain was the Ignored Not-Special.

The bible is chock-full of such stories-- nearly every one, in fact, has a Special Favorite and the one who is to be the Victim -- erm-- "Bad Guy".

The motive for the "Bad Guys" is so thin, you could use it as a window.

That's one of multiple reasons why the bible is Evil, and we can safely conclude it's god is also Evil, as described by the bible.

Since the bible exists? If the bible's god also exists, it's safe to conclude it is Okay with the bible as written: Conclusion? Evil.

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You really do not understand what Bible is for. God tried to cure bicameral humanity with a little step up on evolution of consciousness ladder.

leov said:

You forgot what it started with even if it is an allegory: bicameral Cain murdered his brother.

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Animals rarely kill their fellow species although several examples can be found such as a new male lion dominating the pride will kill all cubs not his. Panda's, after some rough sex, will see the female kick out the male because he'll literally eat his own young. Sometimes this is related to unhealthy or defective offspring:

Why Do Animals Sometimes Kill Their Babies?

Where humans are different was their bicameral mind, which may be the reason for people having "God" speak to them. When bicameralism broke down (maybe starting 30K years ago but not being complete until about 4000 years ago), including society killing people who "were talking to the gods" AKA bicameral, then some of this passed into myth. That said, we're still animals albeit with a highly developed mind. That mind can be quickly clouded with strong emotions such as love and, most notably, hate.

Bob the Unbeliever said:

Yet... you continue to spew such hatred for anyone you consider unworthy....

... exactly as your bible commands you to do, too.

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You are unreasonable. Hatred? God wants as to care of fellow human being and you define it as "hatred", you should shred your instruction book.