Atheist becomes a Christian after 40 years

blü 2 · Jun 23, 2019

Trailblazer said:
Nobody knows what God is doing or what God did at any time. The actions of God are completely Unknowable. So people who say that God did this and God did that drive me completely insane... No, God did not get you a job, a house or a spouse... You got it yourself.

Have you ever noticed that on the news when someone is found alive after being lost in the wilderness they attribute that to the good God, but they never attribute it to God when someone dies.

These are some of the illogical things that give religion a bad rap.

I am not saying that God never helps people, but there is NO WAY to know if, when or how God does that, so people who think they know are just believing what they want to believe. It is ALL psychological. People believe what they WANT to believe, unless they really think about what they are believing and just want to know the truth, but these people are few and far between...

I have an MA in Psychology and I was a client in counseling for over 20 years so I know a few things about psychology.

Have you ever noticed that on the news when someone is found alive after being lost in the wilderness they attribute that to the good God, but they never attribute it to God when someone dies.

These are some of the illogical things that give religion a bad rap.

I am not saying that God never helps people, but there is NO WAY to know if, when or how God does that, so people who think they know are just believing what they want to believe. It is ALL psychological. People believe what they WANT to believe, unless they really think about what they are believing and just want to know the truth, but these people are few and far between...

I have an MA in Psychology and I was a client in counseling for over 20 years so I know a few things about psychology.

Being a staunch Darwinist, I strongly suspect that there must be survival advantages to humans to think luck is sent rather than simply statistical, even though its statistical nature is easily shown (and even though I so knew and so thought while while murmuring 'Thanks, T.G.').

It interests me that in my own case I was in what might be called 'hunting mode' in driving the cab, and that this is the only example of my inventing a deity ─ though I've used exclamations equivalent to 'Thank god [for that]!' throughout my life, many of them rather more vulgar.

Thief · Jun 23, 2019

David T said:
Archetype into life.

Hierarchy?

and where on the list do we fit in?

Shadow Wolf · Jun 23, 2019

David T said:
Oh so he literally did rise from the dead? I hadnt considered that possibility! So he was the first to make the proclamation "he has risen" hadnt considered that! Oh he wasnt cowering hiding away with the others in a complete state of confusion! I hadnt considered any of that. I will have to rethink the entire story now.

HE IS RISEN
Is the oracle of the mysteries and thus the founder of that which was already the greek mysteries into human story. Archetype into life.

That proclamation didn't start the religion, and assuming the stories true Mary would probably be the most appaled at thinking she started it ny uttering words.

Shadow Wolf · Jun 23, 2019

ChristineM said:
I have head it said that christianity was started by john the baptised. The Nicene council cherry picked the bits that were beneficial in controlling the masses in their image

Ive heard that claim as well, albiet not really explained that well.

David T · Jun 23, 2019

Trailblazer said:
What's virtualism?

Reality outside reality giving rise to reality. Or fiction same thing.

David T · Jun 23, 2019

Shadow Wolf said:
That proclamation didn't start the religion, and assuming the stories true Mary would probably be the most appaled at thinking she started it ny uttering words.

Well i did not say jesus wasnt a something very very important .
She has nothing without him, and without her his death becomes nothing...

The founder, and that could be mary or mary are founders of nothing if it were not for its foundation..

In the beginning was the logos, the logos was god, the logos is god, he was with god in the beginning.

Its foundation it appears is about 14 billion years old. The last i checked the faith about 2,000 years old which mary founded upon that foundation.. . I doubt very seriously she would debate me on that at all. Without a foundation a house is worthless.
.

Shadow Wolf · Jun 23, 2019

David T said:
Well i did not say jesus wasnt a something very .
She has nothing without him, and without her his death becomes nothing...

The founder, and that could be mary or mary are founders of nothing if it were not for its foundation..

In the beginning was the logos, the logos was god, the logos is god, he was with god in the beginning.

Its foundation it appears is about 14 billion years old. The last i checked the faith about 2,000 years old which mary founded upon that foundation.. . I doubt very seriously she would debate me on that at all.
.

Shed debate it because Christianity wasnt around for many many years after the time of Christ. What came first was an unorganized band of Jesus Worshippers, with Constantine doing far more than Mary to change what the early Gnostics followed into the organized religion of Christianity, with the Nicene Council cementing what the religion of Christianity is. And what the RCC teaches, what the Council agreed on, it doesnt resemble what the Gnostics taught and followed.

PureX · Jun 24, 2019

Trailblazer said:
The Messengers of God are not mythical, they existed in reality. Whatever they revealed is God's Reality and it is the very Truth. Anything else we conjure up in our minds is only our imagination.

There is such a thing as Truth and falsehood and the purpose of this life is to discover Truth, which means rejecting that which is false.

That's just your ego insisting that your faith is 'truth'. It's not. It's faith in the face of an unavailable truth.

pearl · Jun 24, 2019

Trailblazer said:
Then God sent His only Son to sacrifice Himself in order to remove that sin of Adam and Eve, as if it had never happened. In other words Jesus paid the price for the sin of Adam and Eve and washed our sins away, and now all humans are free of sin.

You are saying that Jesus was simply an afterthought, a scapegoat to answer for an offense against a vengeful God. Jesus was with God at creation.

Trailblazer said:
I guess you are saying that the Church collated the manuscripts that were written and then they became what we now consider Scripture.

NO. I am saying that there was church before anything written. Only oral tradition handed on through the Apostles, the Gospels were penned after the Apostles, by the next generation.

Trailblazer said:
concoctions of the Church which came about as the result of misinterpretations of scripture, not to mention the influences of Paul, which changed the course of Christianity."

Church doctrine does not stagnate, but interpreted anew, developed as to how it would be understood today, the reason for Church Councils.

Dawnofhope · Jun 24, 2019

Shadow Wolf said:
The problem is what we call the Gospels as well was decided at the Nicene Council, and they deliberately omitted any and all books that didnt fit their narrative. This means the Judas' book was removed, leaving him unfairly represented as a traitor instead of a cursed human with a very unfortunate responsibility, and worse yet was the omission of Marys book, which doesnt fot the Church's view of oppressing women and hating sex.

An editing process was always necessary where some material met the requirements for New Testament canon, and other books didn’t. Both the Gospels of Judas and Mary fell well short. Unlike the NT Gospels, these other texts were not written in the first century of Christ’s life and promoted Gnosticism. The Gospel of Mary wasn’t really a Gospel at all as it’s primary concern wasn’t on the Teachings of Christ. Their value lies in better understanding alternative narratives on offer during the first centuries of Christianity’s history. I can’t see either of these books seriously challenging the authenticity of the NT four Gospels. Can you?

Dawnofhope · Jun 24, 2019

Trailblazer said:
Becoming a Baha'i has enabled me to find a theology based on the Writings of Baha'u'llah that makes sense and empowers me to walk a path of faith in the real world. I never read one word from the Bible before I became a Baha'i in 1970; in fact, I never read one word from the Bible until about six years ago. According to Shoghi Effendi, the Dispensations of the past have been abrogated by the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah, so I have no need to read the Bible or any scriptures from any past Dispensations.

I’m pleased you have found a theology that works for you based on Bahá’u’lláh’s Revelation. However many Christians have found what you’ve found based on the Revelation of Christ. If you want to meaningfully engage with Christians ( who make up nearly a third of the world’s population) you need to read the Bible, properly understand it and fall in love with it. Bahá’u’lláh Himself refers extensively to the Bible and demonstrates a profound understanding.

Trailblazer said:
That is true, there is no contradiction between what Christ and Baha'u'llah taught, but there are glaring contradictions between the man-made doctrines if Christianity and what Baha'u'llah taught.

So why not focus more on the Teachings of Christ based on what He taught as recorded in the Gospels?

Shadow Wolf · Jun 24, 2019

adrian009 said:
An editing process was always necessary where some material met the requirements for New Testament canon, and other books didn’t. Both the Gospels of Judas and Mary fell well short. Unlike the NT Gospels, these other texts were not written in the first century of Christ’s life and promoted Gnosticism. The Gospel of Mary wasn’t really a Gospel at all as it’s primary concern wasn’t on the Teachings of Christ. Their value lies in better understanding alternative narratives on offer during the first centuries of Christianity’s history. I can’t see either of these books seriously challenging the authenticity of the NT four Gospels. Can you?

What the challenge are the ideas of Jesus being practically a zombie human with seemjnglt no interest in anything assides from Ministry, they challenge the idea of a Trinity, and these removed books also do not accept the notion of original sin. It doesnt challenge the authenticity of the cannon Gospels, it challenges the narrative of those four books nd why they were selected over the others. And that is because Jesus suddenly looks more human, we cant unfairly hate on Judas, and there is no inheritable original sin (a major problem with the cannonized Bible as it turns god into a liar).

Trailblazer · Jun 24, 2019

pcarl said:
Trailblazer said: Then God sent His only Son to sacrifice Himself in order to remove that sin of Adam and Eve, as if it had never happened. In other words Jesus paid the price for the sin of Adam and Eve and washed our sins away, and now all humans are free of sin.

You are saying that Jesus was simply an afterthought, a scapegoat to answer for an offense against a vengeful God. Jesus was with God at creation.

I was just reitrating what I thought Christians believe about original sin...
I believe that Jesus was pre-existent in the spiritual world before He was born from the womb of Mary, but that does not mean Jesus was with God at creation. I suppose you have a Bible verse(s) to support that?

pcarl said:
NO. I am saying that there was church before anything written. Only oral tradition handed on through the Apostles, the Gospels were penned after the Apostles, by the next generation.

Okay, thanks for clarifying that.

pcarl said:
Church doctrine does not stagnate, but interpreted anew, developed as to how it would be understood today, the reason for Church Councils.

How many Church Councils have there been since Nicaea and what Church doctrines have changed?

Trailblazer · Jun 24, 2019

PureX said:
That's just your ego insisting that your faith is 'truth'. It's not. It's faith in the face of an unavailable truth.

Where did you hear me say anything about MY religion? I said "The Messengers of God are not mythical, they existed in reality. Whatever they revealed is God's Reality and it is the very Truth. Anything else we conjure up in our minds is only our imagination."

The truth is not unavailable. It is readily available in ALL the scriptures of ALL the religions.
Some people just do not LIKE what religions teach, because they want to make up their own truth.

Trailblazer · Jun 24, 2019

adrian009 said:
I’m pleased you have found a theology that works for you based on Bahá’u’lláh’s Revelation. However many Christians have found what you’ve found based on the Revelation of Christ.

Christian theology (that states that Jesus is "the Only way" to God) cannot be right of Baha'i theology (that states that there are "many ways" to God through various Messengers in every age) is right.

Christians have found what they have found and i have found what I found, but they cannot both be right because they are logically contradictory.

adrian009 said:
If you want to meaningfully engage with Christians (who make up nearly a third of the world’s population) you need to read the Bible, properly understand it and fall in love with it.

What ever gave you the idea I want to "meaningfully engage" with Christians? There is nothing meaningful to talk about since they believe that Jesus is the Only Way and I don't. There is nowhere to go with that and arguing just leads to dissension. There is hope for atheists though because they are not mired in their beliefs. That is why I talk to them, that and because they are rational.

I will never fall in love with the Bible. Is this something to fall in love with? If God really did this, you can keep Him for yourself.

Numbers 15:32-36
32 While the Israelites were in the wilderness, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day.
33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly,
34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him.
35 Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.”
36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the Lord commanded Moses.

adrian009 said:
Bahá’u’lláh Himself refers extensively to the Bible and demonstrates a profound understanding.

Of course Baha'u'llah has a profound understanding of the Bible, Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God.
But that does not mean that Baha'u'llah wants us to spend time reading the Bible. Where did Baha'u'llah tell us to read the Bible, and please do not bring Abdu'l-Baha the diplomat into this; if it was important, Baha'u'llah would have told us to read the Bible as a requirement... Instead we have quotes such as the one below. After addressing what is written in the Bible about Moses, Baha’u’llah wrote:

“Moreover, it is not Our wish to relate the stories of the days that are past. God is Our witness that what We even now mention is due solely to Our tender affection for thee, that haply the poor of the earth may attain the shores of the sea of wealth, the ignorant be led unto the ocean of divine knowledge, and they that thirst for understanding partake of the Salsabíl of divine wisdom. Otherwise, this servant regardeth the consideration of such records a grave mistake and a grievous transgression.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 63

adrian009 said:
So why not focus more on the Teachings of Christ based on what He taught as recorded in the Gospels?

Why? Do you think that Christians want to talk about what Jesus actually taught? I do not know any who do, but maybe your experience has been different. But Jesus is still the Only Way so I see no hope for any fruitful dialogue since I think that belief is false. Besides that, I have have no interest in reminiscing over the past, not anymore than Baha'u'llah wanted to.

“Well is it with him who in every Dispensation recognizeth the Purpose of God for that Dispensation, and is not deprived therefrom by turning his gaze towards the things of the past. IV, 12.” Selections From the Writings of the Báb, p. 106

Dawnofhope · Jun 25, 2019

Trailblazer said:
Christian theology (that states that Jesus is "the Only way" to God) cannot be right of Baha'i theology (that states that there are "many ways" to God through various Messengers in every age) is right.

Christians have found what they have found and i have found what I found, but they cannot both be right because they are logically contradictory.

Many of the Christians I know do not have an exclusive theology. Christians are a diverse community and to stereotype them as being all fundamentalists would be unfair.

Trailblazer said:
What ever gave you the idea I want to "meaningfully engage" with Christians? There is nothing meaningful to talk about since they believe that Jesus is the Only Way and I don't. There is nowhere to go with that and arguing just leads to dissension. There is hope for atheists though because they are not mired in their beliefs. That is why I talk to them, that and because they are rational.

Most Baha'is I know want to build positive and constructive relationships with others and do not discriminate on the basis of religion. Baha'u'llah taught associate with all peoples of all faiths in a spirit of love and fellowship. He also taught let your vision be world embracing.

Trailblazer said:
I will never fall in love with the Bible. Is this something to fall in love with? If God really did this, you can keep Him for yourself.
Numbers 15:32-36
32 While the Israelites were in the wilderness, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day.
33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly,
34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him.
35 Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.”
36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the Lord commanded Moses.

Any army or nation that is preparing for war with another appreciates the wisdom of such laws.

I would recommend you study One Common Faith commissioned by the Universal House of Justice. There two paragraphs emphasise how we should consider some of the severe laws in the sacred writings of the past.

Among the most contentious of such issues in understanding society’s evolution towards spiritual maturity has been that of crime and punishment. While different in detail and degree, the penalties prescribed by most sacred texts for acts of violence against either the commonweal or the rights of other individuals tended to be harsh. Moreover, they frequently extended to permitting retaliation against the offenders by the injured parties or by members of their families. In the perspective of history, however, one may reasonably ask what practical alternatives existed. In the absence not merely of present-day programmes of behavioural modification, but even of 37 recourse to such coercive options as prisons and policing agencies, religion’s concern was to impress indelibly on general consciousness the moral unacceptability—and practical costs—of conduct whose effect would otherwise have been to demoralize efforts at social progress. The whole of civilization has since been the beneficiary, and it would be less than honest not to acknowledge the fact.

So it has been throughout all of the religious dispensations whose origins have survived in written records. Mendicancy, slavery, autocracy, conquest, ethnic prejudices and other undesirable features of social interaction have gone unchallenged—or been explicitly indulged—as religion sought to achieve reformations of behaviour that were considered more immediately essential at given stages in the advance of civilization. To condemn religion because any one of its successive dispensations failed to address the whole range of social wrongs would be to ignore everything that has been learned about the nature of human development. Inevitably, anachronistic thinking of this kind must also create severe psychological handicaps in appreciating and facing the requirements of one’s own time.

Bahá'í Reference Library - One Common Faith, Pages 34-38

Trailblazer said:
Of course Baha'u'llah has a profound understanding of the Bible, Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God.
But that does not mean that Baha'u'llah wants us to spend time reading the Bible. Where did Baha'u'llah tell us to read the Bible, and please do not bring Abdu'l-Baha the diplomat into this; if it was important, Baha'u'llah would have told us to read the Bible as a requirement... Instead we have quotes such as the one below. After addressing what is written in the Bible about Moses, Baha’u’llah wrote:

“Moreover, it is not Our wish to relate the stories of the days that are past. God is Our witness that what We even now mention is due solely to Our tender affection for thee, that haply the poor of the earth may attain the shores of the sea of wealth, the ignorant be led unto the ocean of divine knowledge, and they that thirst for understanding partake of the Salsabíl of divine wisdom. Otherwise, this servant regardeth the consideration of such records a grave mistake and a grievous transgression.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 63

Ironically the whole of the Kitab-i-Iqan is about us obtaining a more profound understanding of the scriptures of the past.

in the Kitáb-i-Íqán itself, Bahá'u'lláh states that, "all the Scriptures, and the mysteries thereof are condensed into this brief account," (Íqán 237) and that it can unfold "all the allusions and the implications of the utterances of the Manifestations of Holiness" (Íqán 28). The following are a selection of such quotations:

. . . the things We have already mentioned suffice the world and all that is therein. In fact, all the Scriptures, and the mysteries thereof are condensed into this brief account. So much so that were a person to ponder it a while in his heart, he would discover from all that hath been said the mysteries of the Words of God, and would apprehend the meaning of whatever hath been manifested by that ideal King. (Íqán 237, emphasis added)

Were you to ponder, but for a while, these utterances in your heart, you would surely find the portals of understanding unlocked before your face, and would behold all knowledge and mysteries thereof unveiled before your eyes. (ibid. 52, emphasis added, cf. 19)

This servant will now share with thee a dewdrop out of the fathomless ocean of the truths treasured in these holy words, that haply discerning hearts may comprehend all the allusions and the implications of the utterances of the Manifestations of Holiness, so that the overpowering majesty of the Word of God may not prevent them from attaining unto the ocean of His names and attributes, nor deprive them of recognising the Lamp of God which is the seat of the revelation of His glorified Essence. (ibid. 28, emphasis added)

The Station of the Kitab-i-Iqan

Trailblazer said:
Why? Do you think that Christians want to talk about what Jesus actually taught? I do not know any who do, but maybe your experience has been different. But Jesus is still the Only Way so I see no hope for any fruitful dialogue since I think that belief is false. Besides that, I have have no interest in reminiscing over the past, not anymore than Baha'u'llah wanted to.

“Well is it with him who in every Dispensation recognizeth the Purpose of God for that Dispensation, and is not deprived therefrom by turning his gaze towards the things of the past. IV, 12.” Selections From the Writings of the Báb, p. 106

Baha'u'llah clearly wanted His followers to acquire knowledge and teach His cause with love and wisdom. He never discouraged His followers in any way from studying scriptures of previous religions. To the contrary, He emphasised its necessity.

Your quote from the Bab is about abandoning traditions that are no longer relevant. The Bab isn't saying don't study the Quran or any other Holy books.

Trailblazer · Jun 25, 2019

adrian009 said:
Many of the Christians I know do not have an exclusive theology. Christians are a diverse community and to stereotype them as being all fundamentalists would be unfair.

Are you saying that only fundamentalist Christians believe that Jesus is the Only Way? Do you know any Christians who believe there have been “other” Manifestations of God besides Jesus?

adrian009 said:
Most Baha'is I know want to build positive and constructive relationships with others and do not discriminate on the basis of religion. Baha'u'llah taught associate with all peoples of all faiths in a spirit of love and fellowship. He also taught let your vision be world embracing.

I do not discriminate against Christians, I simply do not agree with the doctrines of Christianity, and I think it is dishonest to pretend that I do. Since Christians are happy with their religion, I see no point engaging them in a dialogue about religion UNLESS they engage me in a dialogue, in which case I will be cordial and respond in a spirit of love and fellowship.

adrian009 said:
Any army or nation that is preparing for war with another appreciates the wisdom of such laws.

So are you saying that God actually ordered Moses to stone that man to death simply as an object lesson to teach others about the consequences of breaking Laws? I guess I was right about God not being “All-Loving” after all.

adrian009 said:
I would recommend you study One Common Faith commissioned by the Universal House of Justice. There two paragraphs emphasise how we should consider some of the severe laws in the sacred writings of the past. Bahá'í Reference Library - One Common Faith, Pages 34-38

Thanks, I will take a look at that.

adrian009 said:
Ironically the whole of the Kitab-i-Iqan is about us obtaining a more profound understanding of the scriptures of the past.

Indeed, we can understand them by reading the Writings of Baha’u’llah. If you want to spend your time reading the Bible that is your choice, but I have little interest in it, I never have. I was not raised as a Christian and I have no sentiments towards the Bible. If I had time to read any religious scriptures, I would read the Qur’an before I would read the Bible. Maybe in the near future, after I retire, I might have time to read the Bible.

What about Hindus and Buddhists who became Baha’is, do you think they also need to acquire a profound understanding of the Bible? I have much better things to do with my very limited time on this Earth. However, I have every reason to refer to the Bible if I am engaged in a dialogue with a Christian and I need to understand their beliefs and their perspective. I learn so much by talking to Christians about Christianity and the Bible. It is not usually reciprocal but that’s okay with me.

adrian009 said:
Baha'u'llah clearly wanted His followers to acquire knowledge and teach His cause with love and wisdom. He never discouraged His followers in any way from studying scriptures of previous religions. To the contrary, He emphasised its necessity.

Do you have any “actual quotes” where Baha’u’llah says it is “necessary” for Baha’is to study the scriptures of previous religions? Just because you have an interest in them does not mean all Baha’is do. You are free to study them if you want to, but I have not even read everything Baha’u’llah has written, so I consider that more important.

Moreover, I do not need to have a profound understanding of older religious scriptures in order to have a good grasp on what the followers believe and converse with them about the Baha’i Faith. If they have any interest in the Baha’i Faith, they should read the Baha’i Writings; we are not obligated to reach into the past and meet them on their ground, but you are free to do that if you want to.

adrian009 said:
Your quote from the Bab is about abandoning traditions that are no longer relevant. The Bab isn't saying don't study the Quran or any other Holy books.

“Well is it with him who in every Dispensation recognizeth the Purpose of God for that Dispensation, and is not deprived therefrom by turning his gaze towards the things of the past. IV, 12.” Selections From the Writings of the Báb, p. 106

I consider studying the older religious scriptures to be turning my gaze towards things of the past. Aren’t Baha’isalready tasked enough with all that is expected of us? Maybe you have time to study but I don’t. I have 11 cats, 3 houses, a full time job and my own forum to manage as well as this forum. I have no time for myself at all but that’s okay. I just don’t have time to spend gazing into the past because I live fully in the present and look towards the future.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that Baha’is have been enjoined to build the New World Order and I do not see how that can be done if we turn our gaze towards the things of the past, towards the religious Dispensations of the past that have been “unconditionally abrogated” by the Revelation of Baha’u’llah (God Passes By, p. 100).

Don’t we already have enough to do?

Shad · Jun 26, 2019

Trailblazer said:
I listen to Christian radio on my bike and between songs people call in and tell stories. A few weeks ago a man called in with a story of how he had just become a Christian after 40 years of being an atheist.

Is it better that this man at least believes in God now? I am not so sure. I think it might be better for atheists to remain atheists rather than becoming Christians because I believe that the doctrines of the Church are false. Don’t get me wrong, I have nothing against belief in Jesus and all His wonderful parables and teachings, but that is not what Christianity teaches. It teaches that Jesus is God, original sin, being saved and forgiven by the cross sacrifice, and the bodily resurrection, ascension and return of Jesus from heaven on some poufy clouds.

Whereas I believe in the cross sacrifice, I do not believe in original sin, so I do not believe there is anything to be saved from except our attachment to selfish desires and the world. Moreover, I do not believe in heaven and hell as places we go to, contingent solely upon whether we accepted Jesus as our Savior. I believe that the Christian doctrines are false, and not what Jesus taught. They are concoctions of the Church which came about as the result of misinterpretations of scripture, not to mention the influences of Paul, which changed the course of Christianity.

So, in my opinion, Christianity as it is believed by most Christians is a false religion. At least there is hope that an atheist might someday find another pathway to God, and even if he didn’t, I think that if an atheist has good principles and characterand leads the life that Jesus taught, he can receive the mercy and pardon of God in the afterlife and come to believe in God.

I apologize if I hurt any Christian’s feelings but I have seen far too many atheists who have been damaged by the Bible and Christianity and I have empathy for them. Christianity is the primary reason there are atheists.

I cannot side with Christianity because it has hurt so many people. Some of these atheists are good friends I met on forums and I have known them for years. They escaped Christianity, so they are doing just fine, they are good people. There is no reason they have to believe that Jesus died for their sins in order to have a chance at heaven. Websites like the following are beyond disgusting…

How To Get To Heaven

How to get to heaven - Believe the truth!
The truth is that there is only one way for any human being to get to heaven and that is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

I think all religions are false. However if the belief results in a better person I do not care what people had to tell themselves in order to accomplish that result. I do not think people should suppress their belief due to outside views. It is within a similar vein of suppression of doubt when within a religion.

Kangaroo Feathers · Jun 26, 2019

How many Christians become atheists after 40 years?

Dawnofhope · Jun 26, 2019

Trailblazer said:
Are you saying that only fundamentalist Christians believe that Jesus is the Only Way? Do you know any Christians who believe there have been “other” Manifestations of God besides Jesus?

The word fundamentalist is somewhat pejorative but the One Way Jesus mentality appears strongly associated with fundamentalism. Many Christians are embarrassed by these types of Christians.

Most Christians recognise there was more to Moses than being just a prophet. The Bible is quite unique in that it provides the life and aTeachings of at least two Manifestations of God. Then there’s Adam, Noah and Abraham.

There’s quite a few Christians who recognise there is something extraordinary about the life and Teachings of Muhammad and Buddha.

Trailblazer said:
I do not discriminate against Christians, I simply do not agree with the doctrines of Christianity, and I think it is dishonest to pretend that I do. Since Christians are happy with their religion, I see no point engaging them in a dialogue about religion UNLESS they engage me in a dialogue, in which case I will be cordial and respond in a spirit of love and fellowship.

Why not look for points of agreement of which there are many? You have at least as much in common with Christians as you do atheists. If you are adversarial and emphasise differences it often won’t feel like a spirit of love and fellowship for either party.

Trailblazer said:
So are you saying that God actually ordered Moses to stone that man to death simply as an object lesson to teach others about the consequences of breaking Laws? I guess I was right about God not being “All-Loving” after all.

Sometimes sacrifices are made for the greater good. The beloved of all things in the Sight of God is Justice is it not?

Trailblazer said:
Indeed, we can understand them by reading the Writings of Baha’u’llah. If you want to spend your time reading the Bible that is your choice, but I have little interest in it, I never have. I was not raised as a Christian and I have no sentiments towards the Bible. If I had time to read any religious scriptures, I would read the Qur’an before I would read the Bible. Maybe in the near future, after I retire, I might have time to read the Bible.

Bahá’u’lláh teaches us to see with our own eyes and not through the eyes of others, to know of our own knowledge, not through the knowledge of our neighbours. There is no substitute for reading and studying the Bible firsthand. Remember it is better to read a single verse in a spirit of joy than to wearily read all the scriptures. Eventually it will only take a few minutes to make connections and gain insights. Furthermore an hours reflection is preferable to 70 years of pious worship.

Trailblazer said:
What about Hindus and Buddhists who became Baha’is, do you think they also need to acquire a profound understanding of the Bible? I have much better things to do with my very limited time on this Earth. However, I have every reason to refer to the Bible if I am engaged in a dialogue with a Christian and I need to understand their beliefs and their perspective. I learn so much by talking to Christians about Christianity and the Bible. It is not usually reciprocal but that’s okay with me.

If a Hindu in India becomes a Baha’i, nearly 80% of his countrymen will be Hindus too and only 2% Christian. It’s more important that he can connect Bahá’u’lláh’s Revelation with Hinduism in the first instance than Christianity. If we are to have a truly world embracing view that Bahá’u’lláh asks, then we need to connect with other world views too. For me the best way to learn about Christianity is to talk to Christians. If the topic of the Bible comes up then the best way for me to learn about this book is to read it myself and not rely on the opinions of others, even Bahá’u’lláh’s.

Trailblazer said:
Do you have any “actual quotes” where Baha’u’llah says it is “necessary” for Baha’is to study the scriptures of previous religions? Just because you have an interest in them does not mean all Baha’is do. You are free to study them if you want to, but I have not even read everything Baha’u’llah has written, so I consider that more important.

It’s strongly implied. One of the fundamental Baha’i principles is the Oneness of religion. That is the Central theme of one common faith. So I no longer see there’s separation but a process of progressive Revelation. There’s no disconnect between God telling Moses to stone the one who breaks the Sabbath and Bahá’u’lláh commanding to burn the arsonist. Then when Bahá’u’lláh talks about outwardly fire and vengeance, inwardly light and mercy there is peace.

When you talk about having no interest in previous religions it makes as much sense as one who only reads Bahá’u’lláh’s works during Akka but not in Baghdad.

Trailblazer said:
Moreover, I do not need to have a profound understanding of older religious scriptures in order to have a good grasp on what the followers believe and converse with them about the Baha’i Faith. If they have any interest in the Baha’i Faith, they should read the Baha’i Writings; we are not obligated to reach into the past and meet them on their ground, but you are free to do that if you want to.

As I see Bahá’u’lláh’s Revelation that’s exactly what we’re obligated to do. It’s much easier for those following the latest Manifestation to enter into the world of those followers of a previous dispensation than the other way round. We’re the ones with the latest guidance after all. If we follow Bahá’u’lláh we will acquire the knowledge and skills to guide and teach others if they are receptive.

Trailblazer said:
I consider studying the older religious scriptures to be turning my gaze towards things of the past. Aren’t Baha’isalready tasked enough with all that is expected of us? Maybe you have time to study but I don’t. I have 11 cats, 3 houses, a full time job and my own forum to manage as well as this forum. I have no time for myself at all but that’s okay. I just don’t have time to spend gazing into the past because I live fully in the present and look towards the future.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that Baha’is have been enjoined to build the New World Order and I do not see how that can be done if we turn our gaze towards the things of the past, towards the religious Dispensations of the past that have been “unconditionally abrogated” by the Revelation of Baha’u’llah (God Passes By, p. 100).

Don’t we already have enough to do?

Despite your protests you are already referring to the Bible regardless and you usually do that well. Building a new world order is about building capacity on an individual, community and institutional level. Understanding the faith of our fellow community members is essential.

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