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The reality of human sexuality: Dr. Debra Soh

Road Warrior

Seeking the middle path..
Lot's of talk among the politically correct mob about genders. From what I've heard, they're up to 72 genders now....oddly the same number as virgins in Muslim ideology.

What got one of the foremost researchers of human sexuality in trouble was when she confronted the "multiple gender" ideological mob with the assertion that there were only two genders albeit with some mixes.

Interview with Debra W. Soh, Sex Neuroscientist - Quillette

Sex Researcher Turned Journalist Challenges Sexual Dogmas
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
What got one of the foremost researchers of human sexuality in trouble was when she confronted the "multiple gender" ideological mob with the assertion that there were only two genders albeit with some mixes.

Gender is a pretty complex issue. When we play around with naming things as complex as human social constructs, we can go either way--the spectrum model or the multiple gender model. Humans are pretty unique critters given our ability to modify our bodies and constantly evolve our social norms.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
Gender is a pretty complex issue. When we play around with naming things as complex as human social constructs, we can go either way--the spectrum model or the multiple gender model. Humans are pretty unique critters given our ability to modify our bodies and constantly evolve our social norms.

That's more about identity. Identity is a social construct. That is complex and I can understand being more than 2 versions of.

But genetics determine the physcial/biological gender. XX or XY with the .05% being slight variations. So there are only 2 biological genders plus the very rare anomalies which don't fit into either category solidly.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
What about intersex people's? Like those with Turner syndrome?
Those are people with congenital conditions or genetic anomalies. Such cases don't change the fact that humans are a sexually dimorphic species--you have biological males, and biological females, and that's it. Gender dysphoria and intersex conditions are rare exceptions to the overwhelming rule.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Each person is very discriminating in many ways and is under strong compulsion to be. People I think all discriminate all the time. Reach the age of 50. Now try making friends with adults 25 years younger than you and get back to me. You can't change that by changing the language. You can eliminate words like 'Old' and change them to 'Venerable', but it doesn't remove the discrimination.
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
Those are people with congenital conditions or genetic anomalies. Such cases don't change the fact that humans are a sexually dimorphic species--you have biological males, and biological females, and that's it. Gender dysphoria and intersex conditions are rare exceptions to the overwhelming rule.

That's more about identity. Identity is a social construct. That is complex and I can understand being more than 2 versions of.

But genetics determine the physcial/biological gender. XX or XY with the .05% being slight variations. So there are only 2 biological genders plus the very rare anomalies which don't fit into either category solidly.

Gender is primarily about identity. Yes, humans are sexually dimorphic, but how we perceive someone as "male" and "female" is social and cultural. This changes through time with many variations in different cultures.

Take the current issue: People bucking the traditional gender roles and doing their own thing. If it was just about gonadal and hormonal variations, who would know besides intimate partners and physicians? It's about dress, labels (pronouns), hair styles, and the various roles we take on. These have endless variations. And, with the human creature able to change their own biological and chemical structures, we create our own widening spectrum.

My bet is once you take the .05% of genetic variations and add in hormonal and gonadal differences, you have a significant number of the population with varying biology related to sex. .05% of 7,346,235,000 is already 367,311,750‬ people with genetic variations.

The "ideological mob" is a reaction to the violence and discrimination facing those that do not conform socially to the traditional gender norms of our society. It has little to do with what is in the pants (or the blood) and everything to do with how they present themselves as individuals.
 

Road Warrior

Seeking the middle path..
What about intersex people's? Like those with Turner syndrome?
Genetic abnormality. What about all mental disorders? All genetic abnormalities? Should we have laws covering all people for all conditions such as being short, bald and/or fat? Left-handedness? Greenish skin? Wrinkly?
 

Road Warrior

Seeking the middle path..
Each person is very discriminating in many ways and is under strong compulsion to be. People I think all discriminate all the time. Reach the age of 50. Now try making friends with adults 25 years younger than you and get back to me. You can't change that by changing the language. You can eliminate words like 'Old' and change them to 'Venerable', but it doesn't remove the discrimination.
Correct. It's a survival trait and necessary for over thousands of years. One mistake and a person is dead. Sure, in the last 100 years we've become much more socially aware, but to disregard why people are the way they are is to ignore possible solutions.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
Gender is primarily about identity. Yes, humans are sexually dimorphic, but how we perceive someone as "male" and "female" is social and cultural. This changes through time with many variations in different cultures.

I agree, and nothing wrong with this as far as I am concerned.

It's about dress, labels (pronouns), hair styles, and the various roles we take on. These have endless variations. And, with the human creature able to change their own biological and chemical structures, we create our own widening spectrum.

I have no issues with any of this. Live and let live long as someone isn't physically/mentally causing harm, have at it! You do you bae, and I'll do me!

The only issue I take is the pronoun issue. Not that I care how someone views themselves. Its just how am I to know to use one of the new 70+ pronouns to address a stranger properly?

If it isn't tattooed in their forehead I am automatically at a disadvantage when I meet someone new. 50% shot at getting it right when meeting an androgynous person back in the day. So not so bad. But now to have to learn 70+ new pronouns and how to properly identify them is too much to realistically ask or expect of anyone.

Now that being said it's not a huge deal.

But laws have been passed in states like NYC and in Canada that make it illegal to misgender someone. Could be fines up to $250,000 in NYC or jail time in Canada. Now granted this law doesn't apply for an honest mistake it's used to stop people from intentionally misgendering repeatedly to bully/harass someone.

So I understand why these laws are in place.

But it's definitely a red flag to stop and take notice of. Simply because its borderline thought policing. So definitely worth taking the time to make sure everything is legit.

The "ideological mob" is a reaction to the violence and discrimination facing those that do not conform socially to the traditional gender norms of our society. It has little to do with what is in the pants (or the blood) and everything to do with how they present themselves as individuals.

I'm sure some see it this way. There will always be irrationality and hate in various forms.

But I could care less how someone else lives their own life, so long as they are not harming others. Just when it begins to effect my life, there will be issues, and I am not afraid to raise my hand and say "Hey, your effin with my p00p! What's really going on here?!?"
 

Road Warrior

Seeking the middle path..
Gender is primarily about identity. Yes, humans are sexually dimorphic, but how we perceive someone as "male" and "female" is social and cultural. This changes through time with many variations in different cultures.

Take the current issue: People bucking the traditional gender roles and doing their own thing. If it was just about gonadal and hormonal variations, who would know besides intimate partners and physicians? It's about dress, labels (pronouns), hair styles, and the various roles we take on. These have endless variations. And, with the human creature able to change their own biological and chemical structures, we create our own widening spectrum.

My bet is once you take the .05% of genetic variations and add in hormonal and gonadal differences, you have a significant number of the population with varying biology related to sex. .05% of 7,346,235,000 is already 367,311,750‬ people with genetic variations.

The "ideological mob" is a reaction to the violence and discrimination facing those that do not conform socially to the traditional gender norms of our society. It has little to do with what is in the pants (or the blood) and everything to do with how they present themselves as individuals.
Ummmm.....no it's not. At least not according to a foremost expert in the field.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Gender is primarily about identity. Yes, humans are sexually dimorphic, but how we perceive someone as "male" and "female" is social and cultural. This changes through time with many variations in different cultures.

Take the current issue: People bucking the traditional gender roles and doing their own thing. If it was just about gonadal and hormonal variations, who would know besides intimate partners and physicians? It's about dress, labels (pronouns), hair styles, and the various roles we take on. These have endless variations. And, with the human creature able to change their own biological and chemical structures, we create our own widening spectrum.

My bet is once you take the .05% of genetic variations and add in hormonal and gonadal differences, you have a significant number of the population with varying biology related to sex. .05% of 7,346,235,000 is already 367,311,750‬ people with genetic variations.

The "ideological mob" is a reaction to the violence and discrimination facing those that do not conform socially to the traditional gender norms of our society. It has little to do with what is in the pants (or the blood) and everything to do with how they present themselves as individuals.
My thing is, society is at a contradictory crossroads concerning gender roles: on the one hand, there are those who seek to shake off restrictive notions of femininity and masculinity for both genders, saying that a woman can act more "masculine" or take on traditionally masculine roles, and a man can act more "feminine" and take on traditionally feminine roles. Essentially, men and women shouldn't be restricted by societal notions of how a "man" or "woman" should be. It is perfectly acceptable for a woman to "act like a man". As Judith Butler puts it, the gender roles and identities of men and women are improvisations that are shaped on the fly as a result of societal interaction, and are thus subject to change. To put it roughly, bodily anatomy is set in stone, but gender roles aren't.

On the other hand, I get the sense that people who insist on using pronouns that don't correspond to their biological sex do ascribe to the idea that there is a more concrete or immutable substance behind societal descriptors of how a man and woman should act. I have had trans people tell me that they know they're really a man or a woman, despite their anatomy, because they think like the opposite sex and they've never acted traditionally "masculine" or "feminine". It's the idea that one is a "man trapped in a woman's body" or vice-versa. So they feel they have to change their bodies to match. To put it roughly, gender identities are set in stone, but bodily anatomy isn't. So there is in fact a clear demarcation between being a man or a woman, or else transgender people would not feel a need to transition. I know at least a few transgender people who take special issue with Judith Butler for this very reason, because she would call such assumptions into question.

To me, these two ideologies are in conflict. I can understand why many feminists feel that transgender issues are incompatible with feminism.
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
Ummmm.....no it's not. At least not according to a foremost expert in the field.

I didn't catch that in the posted articles. Yes, she states that brain structures appear to show differences between the sexes, but that doesn't change my argument, since perception and presentation of gender can be very individual. And it doesn't change the fact that this has become a political issue due to the backlash against folks challenging gender roles.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Lot's of talk among the politically correct mob about genders. From what I've heard, they're up to 72 genders now....oddly the same number as virgins in Muslim ideology.

What got one of the foremost researchers of human sexuality in trouble was when she confronted the "multiple gender" ideological mob with the assertion that there were only two genders albeit with some mixes.

Interview with Debra W. Soh, Sex Neuroscientist - Quillette

Sex Researcher Turned Journalist Challenges Sexual Dogmas

After quickly reading through the two interviews, there's not much in them about gender at all. She highlights the fact that there are brain differences between men and women - cool, of course there are. There are also interesting brain studies of trans people. Turns out, parts of their brains more closely match the opposite sex, and other parts are more like halfway between how the same structure looks in a typical man or woman.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.3109/09540261.2015.1113163

The 72 genders thing just comes from a bunch of different labels that people give for much the same concept: some people's gender identity doesn't fit perfectly into male or female, and they fall in a grey area somewhere between. Kinsey made much the same discovery about sexual orientation. I don't know why some people are so threatened or put off by the concept, but there it is.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
My thing is, society is at a contradictory crossroads concerning gender roles: on the one hand, there are those who seek to shake off restrictive notions of femininity and masculinity for both genders, saying that a woman can act more "masculine" or take on traditionally masculine roles, and a man can act more "feminine" and take on traditionally feminine roles. Essentially, men and women shouldn't be restricted by societal notions of how a "man" or "woman" should be. It is perfectly acceptable for a woman to "act like a man". As Judith Butler puts it, the gender roles and identities of men and women are improvisations that are shaped on the fly as a result of societal interaction, and are thus subject to change. To put it roughly, bodily anatomy is set in stone, but gender roles aren't.

On the other hand, I get the sense that people who insist on using pronouns that don't correspond to their biological sex do ascribe to the idea that there is a more concrete or immutable substance behind societal descriptors of how a man and woman should act. I have had trans people tell me that they know they're really a man or a woman, despite their anatomy, because they think like the opposite sex and they've never acted traditionally "masculine" or "feminine". It's the idea that one is a "man trapped in a woman's body" or vice-versa. So they feel they have to change their bodies to match. To put it roughly, gender identities are set in stone, but bodily anatomy isn't. So there is in fact a clear demarcation between being a man or a woman, or else transgender people would not feel a need to transition. I know at least a few transgender people who take special issue with Judith Butler for this very reason, because she would call such assumptions into question.

To me, these two ideologies are in conflict. I can understand why many feminists feel that transgender issues are incompatible with feminism.

Although I don't think these things are irreconcilable, this is an excellent explanation of the tension that exists between some feminists and trans people. Thanks for framing it the way you did, it helps clarify the issue for me.
 
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