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The Power Of Circular Reasoning

RedhorseWoman

Active Member
Being in a hopeless state is a recipe for being miserable. What hope do atheists have? All they have is today, right now, this minute....today or tomorrow your life might end and then there is nothing more. If I felt that this life was all there was, my life would indeed be miserable. Imagine someone born with a severe disability or who developed a terminal illness in childhood and they never got to live a 'normal' life,to enjoy the things that many of us take for granted....if this life is all they get, then Jehovah would indeed be a cruel and heartless God.

He has asked us to bear with him whilst he deals with rebellion and eradicates it forever. I am willing to wait for what he promises because he is the only one who can actually deliver on his promises. Who do you depend on?

My heart knows that life on this planet should be the opposite of what it is now. It is the collective desire of most humans to live a way different life....why is that? Why do we long for peace and security for ourselves and our loved ones? Why are we drawn to paradise locations? This life with all its uncertainty and tragedy might be enough for you...but it isn't enough for me. I know something better is coming because I have faith in my Creator. Not everyone has it but it can be nurtured if you feed it. Nature teaches us so much about the one who made it. Open your eyes.

The Bible explains why we all seek something better. It's programmed into us...
This life is a pathetic fake created by God's adversary in the hope that it will make people give up on belief in a benevolent Creator.....has he succeeded? Looks that way to me. But many have come to see through his deception.

What is really sad is putting your life on hold while waiting for that "something better" and devoting the life you've been given to serving as a slave to a religious publishing company. There are so many comments from JWs fantasizing about what they will do "in the New System" while they spend their time and resources enriching a group of charlatans who care nothing about them at all.

It is sad to "wait" and never live because of what men have told you God wants. They certainly are living their lives to the fullest while YOU wait.



How do you know it isn't? In every culture in different parts of the world there is a flood story. How did that happen when there was no communication between nations thousands of years ago. They didn't know other cultures even existed, for the most part. That can only happen if the event impacted on the world to such an extent that it created legends in their history. Genesis explains how that happened.

Floods have occurred almost everywhere, but not all cultures have a flood story. Japan, for instance, has no myths about a global flood. I guess God preferred them over everyone else, right?



Why is God a terrible person for executing those who were committing capital crimes? He executed those who were offending him by their licentious and violent ways. So invasive was their influence, that only one family was seen to care anything about God and his laws. These were the only ones NOT breaking his laws. God didn't save them, but gave them instructions on how to save themselves...it was a monumental task and if they had faltered on any of God's instructions, no one would have survived that event.

There is no way that you could ever prove that every person on the face of the earth other than Noah and his family were guilty of anything whatsoever, and the animals were entirely innocent, yet they, too, according to this myth, were sentenced to death.

An executioner is not a murderer. Who has a better right to execute those who commit capital crimes than the Creator of life?

Since Flood believers have to believe that God micro-managed pretty much every detail in order to pull off this "Flood," it would have made much more sense for God to have simply executed the "evil" people rather than destroying everything (animals, plants, etc.) on the entire face of the earth.

You also forget that the one thing that God has that we do not, is the ability to restore life to those who merit his mercy. A God who means what he says, and does not just slap offenders on the wrist IS a God worth following. Don't we all wish he would come right now and rid the earth of those who are committing violence and immorality wantonly believing that they have a right to do whatever they like? Do you love this world? I don't...I am sickened by what humans are doing to this planet and to each other.....but its all unbelievers have. Its not all I have.

I learned just recently about the death of a serial child molester from my home congregation. His victims were abused by him and ignored by the "shepherds" in the congregation who were supposedly put there by means of God's Holy Spirit. The child molester remained a JW (in good standing, no less) but his victims left the JW organization due not only to the abuse they endured but also because their pleas to the elders were ignored.

In the Guest Book portion of his obituary, a JW wrote about how she was looking forward to seeing him again in the New System after he was resurrected. I thought about how JWs would also consider his victims to be those who deserve to die at God's hand simply because they left the JW organization...but their abuser deserves eternal life in Paradise.
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
All I "admitted" to was creating the specific circle I posted, not the idea of the circle.


Of course ”the idea of the circle” has been around a long time!

No one here is attributing “the idea of the circle” to you, and that includes me. And yes, you are absolutely correct when you say “the idea of the circle” has “been around for a long time.”

As anyone familiar with circular reasoning knows, this one's been around for a long time.

Doesn't matter how long it's been around. What matters is that you posted and now attempt to defend it.

The supposed "common claims" are made up. They are not sourced to any "common individual(s)" that I'm aware of and it certainly didn't post under your Avatar by itself.


But it's nice to see you fess up to your fib that your made up circle was "another common claim

Of course it was. It exactly mirrored your fib for the purpose of illustration. :rolleyes:

What's good for the goose is good for the gander @Skim, but as stated earlier you appear to miss the forest for the trees.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
The time to believe something is when there is sufficient evidence for it. There isn't sufficient evidence that there is a god, ... So therefore I don't believe (it).
Yet you believe that if there were a God, there would also be sufficient evidence of it's existence available to you, and recognizable by you, to convince you.

I don't think you're being as logical and reasonable as you think you're being.
 

Firemorphic

Activist Membrane
Atheology.jpg


or:​

Atheology2.jpg
 
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Catholicus

Active Member
Obviously not at all.


When Christians stop telling the rest of the world what they think is morally wrong with it, and what everyone has to do to fix themselves, AND they stop interfering in our secular life then perhaps I will. And if my posts happen to "pull down those who wish to follow the Christian faith" maybe they need to shore up their belief and go to church once in awhile. Just sayin'.

Thing is, no one here is obligated to read anything anyone writes or respond to it. And if you find my posts too challenging then I suggest you stick with the choir; the Christian related DIR forums.

.

.

It isn't Christians who are telling the rest of the world how to behave, It is God. Christians are just passing the message along.

Those who obey God's instructions will reach Heaven; those who disobey them, will reach Hell.

So people need to be told.
 

PoetPhilosopher

Veteran Member
It isn't Christians who are telling the rest of the world how to behave, It is God. Christians are just passing the message along.

Those who obey God's instructions will reach Heaven; those who disobey them, will reach Hell.

So people need to be told.

I disagree. People should for the most part let me go to heaven or hell in peace.
 

Catholicus

Active Member
I disagree. People should for the most part let me go to heaven or hell in peace.

If it's peace you want, then you must get to Heaven, since "there is no peace for the wicked."

Jesus promised His peace - which is marvellous beyond understanding - to all those who follow Him.
 

Catholicus

Active Member
Interesting, but in two places in the quote, you stopped just a little bit short:

1. "Believing in a god is nothing more than a choice and that choice is based on faith." But what is that "faith" based on? I think that for the vast majority of people in the world, faith is based on what they were taught before they were old enough to discriminate for themselves, and encouraged to believe by those in whom the necessarily placed the most trust.

2. "Their faith is a god does exist, your faith is a god doesn't exist. Evidence doesn't support either." But "evidence" comes in two forms, presence and absence. We never convict anyone in court on the basis of an absence of evidence, but rather on the positive identification of evidence that links the accused to the crime. I am assuming you mean that there is no positive evidence that supports either position. For most atheists, on the other hand, the absence of evidence strongly suggests that god does not exist, rather than leading to a conclusion that he does.

The positive evidence is that the universe exists.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
It isn't Christians who are telling the rest of the world how to behave, It is God. Christians are just passing the message along.

Those who obey God's instructions will reach Heaven; those who disobey them, will reach Hell.

So people need to be told.
If God can't even be bothered to deliver it's own message, then why should we care?
 
Good to hear ... glad I gave you "Winner" ... It's really a nice OP and I don't understand why others find it negative
You just pose 3 questions, and if others don't like the answers that pop up in their mind ... that is their problem
They should not blame you for their own "inconvenient" answers
And it takes courage to truthfully research from a variety of resources to try to answer the questions and answers that pop up in their minds.

It takes loving the truth, and choosing to believe what is true, over believing what is taught or wanting to believe what is true.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
And it takes courage to truthfully research from a variety of resources to try to answer the questions and answers that pop up in their minds.

It takes loving the truth, and choosing to believe what is true, over believing what is taught or wanting to believe what is true.
The moment a person believes "My way is the highway", obviously he can't see objectively anymore
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Yet you believe that if there were a God, there would also be sufficient evidence of it's existence available to you, and recognizable by you, to convince you.

I don't think you're being as logical and reasonable as you think you're being.

No no. It's quite possible that there is a God and we simply don't have sufficient evidence for his existence. I'm not a strong/gnostic atheist.

The thing is though, even if it ultimately turns out there is a God, we're still not rationally justified in believing in him until we see sufficient evidence.

Additionally, any God who would expect us to believe in him without sufficient evidence, and would eternally punish us for not believing in him when he didn't provide sufficient evidence, is deeply immoral.
 

JJ50

Well-Known Member
No no. It's quite possible that there is a God and we simply don't have sufficient evidence for his existence. I'm not a strong/gnostic atheist.

The thing is though, even if it ultimately turns out there is a God, we're still not rationally justified in believing in him until we see sufficient evidence.

Additionally, any God who would expect us to believe in him without sufficient evidence, and would eternally punish us for not believing in him when he didn't provide sufficient evidence, is deeply immoral.

I agree.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
No no. It's quite possible that there is a God and we simply don't have sufficient evidence for his existence. I'm not a strong/gnostic atheist.

The thing is though, even if it ultimately turns out there is a God, we're still not rationally justified in believing in him until we see sufficient evidence.
The rationale is that doing so improves our experience of being. It doesn't matter whether or not what we believe is true, or not, because there is no way for us to determine that regarding the nature and existence of 'God'. What matters, then, is how the belief functions for us in our lives. Once knowledge (truth) has been denied us, we are left with value as the most reasonable criteria for choosing what to believe and what not to. And in fact, what we humans call "truth" is almost always just whatever happens to 'work for us' in our current experience of existence. We don't really know the "truth" of anything, as that would ultimately require omniscience.

Atheism is the more illogical choice since it rejects the positive value possibilities that theism offers us, based on nothing. Whereas at least theism does offer us the positive possibilities that come with acting through faith.
Additionally, any God who would expect us to believe in him without sufficient evidence, and would eternally punish us for not believing in him when he didn't provide sufficient evidence, is deeply immoral.
I can't think of any logical reason that "God" as we generally define it (the source, sustenance, and purpose of all that exists) would care what we believe regarding it.
 
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