Trump says Iran made ‘big mistake’ by taking down US drone

Road Warrior · Jun 22, 2019

sooda said:
Honey, the occupation forces couldn't even secure the highway from Baghdad to the airport. As broken as Iraq was they still gave us a hard time.

Don't tell me, you should have told them that, Sweetie.

In early 2003 I was arguing with two ex-Air Force officers about the possibility of war in Iraq. I was completely against it for several reasons, most already mentioned. One was all gung-ho, damn the consequences, the other was quiet as I gave my point of view...which was the same point of view Powell tried to convey to the Bush administration.

sooda · Jun 22, 2019

Road Warrior said:
Let's not forget that anyone who knows history, and most military experts do, knows that nothing lasts forever.

Secondly, and most importantly, the events with the Shah, along with several other events, took place during the Cold War.

That's true.. The Cold War contributed to the fear that Iran would come under Soviet influence if the Mosadeeg remained. IMO they absolutely blew it.. The real motive was the Brits were paying about 6 cents on the dollar to Iran for oil revenue while every other ME producer was getting a 50-50 split.

Eisenhower screwed up. When they reinstituted the Shah revenue share went up to 13 cents on the dollar.

sooda · Jun 22, 2019

Road Warrior said:
Who was sabotaging the Iraqi oil? Iranian supported Shias?

It wasn't just Iran.. The Iraqis were doing it for the most part.

Oil Sabotage Threatens Iraq Economy, Rebuilding - LA Times
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2004-sep-18-fg-pipeline18-story.html
U.S. and Iraqi officials said the strikes had reduced average daily oil production by nearly 100,000 barrels, resulting in losses of as much as $1 billion this year.
U.S. Braces for Possible Sabotage of Iraq's Oil Fields ...
https://www.foxnews.com/story/u-s-braces-for-possible-sabotage-of-iraqs-oil-fields
LONDON – Saddam Hussein may have organized a meticulous plan for sabotaging Iraq's oil fields in a scorched-earth tactic designed to cripple Iraqi production.

sooda · Jun 22, 2019

Road Warrior said:
Don't tell me, you should have told them that, Sweetie.

In early 2003 I was arguing with two ex-Air Force officers about the possibility of war in Iraq. I was completely against it for several reasons, most already mentioned. One was all gung-ho, damn the consequences, the other was quiet as I gave my point of view...which was the same point of view Powell tried to convey to the Bush administration.

I was against the war too.. and all the ARAMCO people opposed it.. so did the Saudis, historians, diplomats.

Road Warrior · Jun 22, 2019

Stevicus said:
I've heard the whole Appeasement argument before, although it can also be argued that it was mainly an attempt to buy more time, since Britain and France weren't really prepared to fight a war at that time.

On the other hand, one could just as easily argue that Hitler never would have come to power at all if the British and French had not been so harsh and punitive in their terms of the Treaty of Versailles. There are other ways of looking at that argument.

If the warring parties in WW1 had given up their warlike ways - and all reached out the hand of friendship and peace without annexations or indemnities - it's extremely unlikely we would have seen regimes headed by the likes of Hitler, Stalin, or Mao. We may win the war. We may win ten wars, but it never seems to end. It just keeps coming. We end up losing in the long run.

A poor excuse for any nation to not be prepared to defend itself. They appeased and rolled over on letting Hitler have Czechoslovakia because they didn't have the will to fight him so they meekly tried to appease him.

A valid argument about the Treaty of Versailles. You'll notice the Anti-American types don't say anything about the fact the US refused to sign because they considered it too harsh.

If pigs could fly, you and I could make a fortune selling helmets.

Road Warrior · Jun 22, 2019

Revoltingest said:
....I wonder what Trump would do if Iran flew such a platform right off of the New Jersey shore?

Nothing. It's international airspace. I've watched Soviet Badgers fly off the coast of Miami beach during the Cold War. No one shot them down. Why? Same answer - International Airspace.

For those unfamiliar with the concept: https://www.icao.int/APAC/Documents/edocs/International Airspace and Civil-Military Cooperation.pdf

Something like this:

columbus · Jun 22, 2019

Road Warrior said:
You've obviously missed several of my posts on the subject: There won't be a war. It's the anti-Americans who are fanning the flames of fear-mongering.

You keep saying this as though it's obvious.
I don't think it is.

Especially since Iran doesn't seem too concerned about yet another USA government rattling sabers. And their ally Putin is bff with the USA president. I think Trump is being led into a disaster for the USA and a win for our adversaries like Iran and Russia.

And I'm seeing evidence of this right here on this thread.
Tom

Road Warrior · Jun 22, 2019

columbus said:
You keep saying this as though it's obvious.
I don't think it is.....

Of course not since you're one of the ones beating the war drums and fanning fear against United States.

james dixon · Jun 22, 2019

Subduction Zone said:
You might want to recheck your numbers. For example you Iraq war deaths are greater than the entire U.S. population in 2003:

The American civil war deaths was way off as well. Unfortunately, I just used a graph I Googled.

correct numbers-
The Confederate States was never diplomatically recognized by the government of the United States or by that of any foreign country.[d] The states that remained loyal to the U.S. were known as the Union.[e] The Union and the Confederacy quickly raised volunteer and conscription armies that fought mostly in the South over the course of four years. Intense combat left 620,000 to 750,000 people dead, more than the number of U.S. military deaths in all other wars combined.[f]

American Civil War - Wikipedia

-

columbus · Jun 22, 2019

Road Warrior said:
Of course not since you're one of the ones beating the war drums and fanning fear against United States.

I'm beating the war drums?
Seriously?

I'm a hardcore prolifer. Far more so than the overwhelming majority of Christians.

Supporting war is a Pro-Death attitude. One that is unfortunately common amongst Christians, around the globe and across the centuries. And I'm seeing it happen right here before my eyes.
Again.
Tom

Shad · Jun 22, 2019

columbus said:
My point is that Putin is playing Trump.

Putting off shooting America in the foot a few weeks doesn't mean that Putin's investment in Trump won't pay off in the long term.
Tom

Your point is the type that no matter what Trump does he is being played by Putin. First you claim that strike is a play by Putin. When I pointed out it was called off you then say that this too is a play by Putin. Your point is nothing but Putin and ad hoc rescues. Hence why you are Jane. Russia Russia Russia....

columbus · Jun 22, 2019

Shad said:
Your point is the type that no matter what Trump does he is being played by Putin. First you claim that strike is a play by Putin. When I pointed out it was called off you then say that this too is a play by Putin. Your point is nothing but Putin and ad hoc rescues. Hence why you are Jane. Russia Russia Russia....

No, my point is that Russia and Iran are more likely to come out ahead than the USA.
From the long term, geopolitical strategic, goals. Russia is probably going to win by supporting their ally Iran. The USA probably is just going to take another nosedive into a mountain of debt and loss of international standing like we did the last time a Christian president started a war in the Middle East.
Tom

james dixon · Jun 22, 2019

The facts I missed--

Civil War Facts

Road Warrior · Jun 22, 2019

columbus said:
I'm beating the war drums?
Seriously?

I'm a hardcore prolifer. Far more so than the overwhelming majority of Christians.

Supporting war is a Pro-Death attitude. One that is unfortunately common amongst Christians, around the globe and across the centuries. And I'm seeing it happen right here before my eyes.
Again.
Tom

When you push the agenda that the US is the problem and if we'd only leave everything would be alright, then, yes, you're fear-mongering and beating the drums of war regardless if you realize it or not.

Example:

columbus said:
No, my point is that Russia and Iran are more likely to come out ahead than the USA.
From the long term, geopolitical strategic, goals. Russia is probably going to win by supporting their ally Iran. The USA probably is just going to take another nosedive into a mountain of debt and loss of international standing like we did the last time a Christian president started a war in the Middle East.
Tom

columbus · Jun 22, 2019

Road Warrior said:
When you push the agenda that the US is the problem and if we'd only leave everything would be alright, then, yes, you're fear-mongering and beating the drums of war regardless if you realize it or not.

BS.
We could stay and support peace, justice, and prosperity for all.

But you and the Christian community as a whole aren't interested in that.

But don't tell me that I'm beating the drums of war because I'm not. I find that incredibly insulting, especially coming from a "Christian".
Tom

Shad · Jun 22, 2019

columbus said:
No, my point is that Russia and Iran are more likely to come out ahead than the USA.

By maintaining the status quo? Explain

From the long term, geopolitical strategic, goals. Russia is probably going to win by supporting their ally Iran.

Win what? Russia didn't use it's veto against sanctions. Again explain

Obama? Like Libya? Oh I forgot toppling a nation and turning it over to Islamist is not an issue because Obama did it.

The USA probably is just going to take another nosedive into a mountain of debt and loss of international standing like we did the last time a Christian president started a war in the Middle East.

US debt was a problem before the wars. Again if there is no war how is debt relevant?

Shadow Wolf · Jun 22, 2019

Road Warrior said:
QED. I'm sure the ~~Soviet Union~~ Russia, Iran and China appreciate your support.....but I think even they would laugh at your assertion that the US had continually bombed Iran for 30-40 years.

I dont support those countries, and US has been bombing or otherwise politically and/or militarily interferring with Iran and other places that call America the Great Satan for about that long now (it goes back further with the British and other European powers).

Shad · Jun 22, 2019

sooda said:
The Cold War contributed to the fear that Iran would come under Soviet influence if the Mosadeeg remained.

The ironic part is that the Shah turned to the same "socialists" he purged when the religious element started to object to things like freedom of religion and removing religious requirements for office.

Shadow Wolf · Jun 22, 2019

columbus said:
You keep saying this as though it's obvious.
I don't think it is.

Especially since Iran doesn't seem too concerned about yet another USA government rattling sabers. And their ally Putin is bff with the USA president. I think Trump is being led into a disaster for the USA and a win for our adversaries like Iran and Russia.

And I'm seeing evidence of this right here on this thread.
Tom

It's very hard to not see this as a ploy by Putin. Sabers get rattled, Trump gets baited, America gets sucked into another crippling and disasterous ME war, leaving Russia to clean up, secure regional power, and knocking America down while elevating Russia as a Super Power as America is once again embarassed by a fools errand of a "war."

columbus · Jun 22, 2019

Shad said:
By maintaining the status quo? Explain

No, by Trump starting a war.
We had a peace deal. Trump tore it up. We're now headed towards a war.

Iran wants to protect itself from their long time enemy, the USA. The status quo is the USA toppling Iranian democracy, attacking them over and over for taking back their country, stealing their cash, and imposing sanctions because they want to defend themselves.
That's the status quo.

But neither the USA nor Iran are what they used to be decades ago. Iran isn't willing to put up with the status quo any more, and they don't have to.

Remember when a corrupt government and military spending caused the Soviet Union to collapse? Well, that looks the the USA of 2019 to me.
Tom

Trump says Iran made ‘big mistake’ by taking down US drone

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