But don't call them concentration camps

Stanyon · Jun 21, 2019

sun rise said:
Why? Because the accurate phrase "concentration camp" is used for Trump's concentration camp? Go argue with the dictionary and American history if that's the reason.

O.K.

concentration camp

noun
Definition of concentration camp
: a place where large numbers of people (such as prisoners of war, political prisoners, refugees, or the members of an ethnic or religious minority) are detained or confined under armed guard —used especially in reference to camps created by the Nazis in World War II for the internment and persecution of Jews and other prisoners"
Source:
Concentration Camp | Definition of Concentration Camp by Merriam-Webster

Considering all the allusions and illusions that Trump is a Nazi and literally Hitler for almost three years it would seem illogical and probably intellectually disingenuous for anyone say that this specific term was not intended to play on the collective consciousness of the horrors of Nazi Germany.

Several days ago:
CNN's Don Lemon Says Trump Could Become Like Hitler: "It Starts With Little Lies" | Video | RealClearPolitics

December 2016 shortly after the election:
"The ultimate shutdown in politics is to compare a political opponent to Adolf Hitler.And while Donald Trump may have changed much of what we know about politics, that truth lived on in 2016, even if it didn't stop the president-elect from winning.Here are seven times, in no particular order, the national media compared Trump to Hitler."

source:
Seven times the media compared Trump to Hitler

No connection whatsoever?

BSM1 · Jun 21, 2019

A Vestigial Mote said:
Make the floors out of Styrofoam-rubber.

Now that's a good idea!

Shad · Jun 21, 2019

pcarl said:
Do you understand the reason behind sanctuary cities? It is simply to give to the undocumented the right to seek help from police and other 1st responders, to doctors, hospital emergency rooms, without the fear of being reported and without which they can be freely preyed upon.

They already had that right. They just do not want to face the consequences of their previous actions.

Shad · Jun 21, 2019

A Vestigial Mote said:
Not wanting to provide bedding you mean?

As stated previously, these people's freedom to find their own place to lie down to sleep has been taken from them. Having the freedom to decide what they lie down on in the conditions they, or their parents, put themselves/them in (i.e. far from home, without bedding, etc.) would be leagues better than what they have now. They are being forced to lay on the concrete. And again - I didn't do this to them, and I wouldn't take such freedoms away from them. There are people who did - and complaints are being lodged. I could provide beds all day long and people would still be taking this freedom away from more people tomorrow. Point being there is a SOURCE for this problem - putting bandaids on a growing wound is insanity.

One loses freedom after committing a crime.

A Vestigial Mote · Jun 21, 2019

Shad said:
One loses freedom after committing a crime.

Well, that statement is a bit hyperbolic, isn't it? I mean, if I throw a gum-wrapper out my car window and get pulled over, the only "freedom" I lose is the freedom to spend the money I now owe the state. But throwing that gum-wrapper out the window is still a "crime."

Point being... we decide what constitutes a crime, don't we? And we also decide how much freedom is restricted, don't we?

Valjean · Jun 21, 2019

Stanyon said:
Wonder if Jewish groups are getting tired of the ongoing narrative that the current political situation is similar to Nazi Germany, it isn't regardless of how badly some want and need it to be.

Have you read much about Nazi/Fascist history?
I should think the Jewish community would be especially concerned about a recurrence. Sweeping history under the rug isn't likely to prevent its repetition.

Nowhere Man said:
Just as okay as the manner by which parents willingly use their children as tools of leverage to cross the border illegally and the reckless danger they put them in by traveling here in the first place with unscrupulous people.

Disgusting hordes of dangerous vermin, aren't they? They should be exterminated!

Nowhere Man said:
Of course they are. The Socialists just want to paint a pretty picture for themselves so people will think they're the moral high horse here and champions of illegals.

But we 'socialist liberals' are the champions who have led human social and moral progress. It's we who have always promoted freedom, fairness, human rights, equality, and general prosperity -- fighting you obstructionist conservatives all the way.
We are the ones wearing the white hats!

Twilight Hue · Jun 21, 2019

Valjean said:
Have you read much about Nazi/Fascist history?
I should think the Jewish community would be especially concerned about a recurrence. Sweeping history under the rug isn't likely to prevent its repetition.

Disgusting hordes of dangerous vermin, aren't they? They should be exterminated!

But we 'socialist liberals' are the champions who have led human social and moral progress. It's we who have always promoted freedom, fairness, human rights, equality, and general prosperity -- fighting you obstructionist conservatives all the way.
We are the ones wearing the white hats!

Lol!

Valjean · Jun 21, 2019

Stanyon said:
Their parent(s) brought them here, no one is taking anything, away they created a situation themselves and this is the result.

Have you considered why they're coming here? Who created the intolerable situations they're fleeing?
Maybe we owe them.

Stanyon said:
That's human nature, you lock the doors to your house don't you? We aren't taking anything away from anyone, they came here, they weren't kidnapped, if anything they are taking away from us.

I think the general consensus is that, on the whole, they're an economic boon.

Human nature is tribal, isn't it? We're psychologically wired to live in small, competitive groups. We're naturally tribal and xenophobic.
Your anti-social attitude is great -- if you're a cave man -- but in huge, diverse, supra-tribal civilizations where you no longer know everyone, it's toxic; an atavism.

Human happiness and prosperity in today's world depends on our suppressing this natural xenophobia.
Conservatives seem to be fueling it; sowing hatred and disorder. Their anti-socialist, punitive fix is simplistic and doesn't address the causes of the problem.

Valjean · Jun 21, 2019

Shad said:
They already had that right. They just do not want to face the consequences of their previous actions.

What does this mean? Clarify, please.

Valjean · Jun 21, 2019

Shaul said:
No it hasn’t. 1) They chose to make their way here often sleeping in far worse conditions. 2) There are provided beds, and basic necessities, although rare temporary shortages occur. 3) They are free to leave the detention facilities at any time, by simply agreeing to voluntary extradition back home.

Consider why they're undertaking such hardship and risk. Might American foreign policy have anything to to with it? Might the "invasion" be blowback?
2: Apparently they're arriving in such numbers that these shortages, of space and general necessities, are neither rare nor temporary.
We're quick to open the monetary spigots for anything military, no questions asked, but to help people, even to help our own citizens -- we can't afford it.
3: Free to leave, true, but why did they come here in the first place?
Free to hop out of the frying pan back into the fire is a Hobson's choice, isn't it?

So, if they are free to go at any time, and they choose to stay, how bad can it truly be?

The question is: How bad was it at home, that they're willing to endure such hardships and risk; that they're willing to stay in the frying pan?

What drove them here? Do we bear any responsibility for it? Is detention and punitive deterrence going to fix the problem, ie: repair the cause?

Nowhere Man said:
The Socialist Democrats complain about 'concentration' camps when the vast majority of the blame falls squarely on them.

There wouldn't be none of these so-called 'concentration' camps if they wern't so busy promoting and encouraging the illegal activity in the first place.

No, the policies and adventurism that created the conditions they're fleeing, were "conservative" initiatives, and opposed by us "radical liberals." The blame does not fall on us, and your band-aid solution isn't going to fix the underlying problem.

Valjean · Jun 21, 2019

Road Warrior said:
Agreed. Calling Americans Nazis waters down the horrors of Nazi Germany. Same for slinging around the worlds "fascist", "socialist" and "racist" for everything in which they disagree. Overusing such terms and imagery waters down the actual wrongs committed by those who actually were fascists, socialists and racists.

I disagree. A thing should be called what it is, and ignoring symptoms of an impending disease isn't going to prevent it. Why wait for a full-blown crisis before we mention it?

The psychosocial causes and political steps that led to these fascist and socialist regimes are well known. Hundreds of books have been written about it. How is suppressing clear symptoms of a resurgence going to prevent one?
"Those who forget [suppress] history...."

Example: Claiming the US has concentration camps on the border which many see as detention centers for illegal aliens caught within out borders may cause those same people to think that real concentrations camps like we did with the Japanese AKA American citizens, weren't so bad. If so, then they might think that the Nazi concentration camps for Gypsies, Soviets, homosexuals, mentally retarded and, yes, Jews, weren't so bad either. It's a dangerous path but one often used by political zealots, anti-Americans and other extremists.

If a term is denotatively correct but carries incorrect connotations, I'd rather correct the false implications than suppress the whole message.

Valjean · Jun 21, 2019

Shad said:
They already had that right. They just do not want to face the consequences of their previous actions.

No, it's not a question of rights, it's a question of safety. They dare not attract attention to themselves, they dare not report crimes or seek medical help, lest they end up in a detention camp or back in the intolerable situation they fled.
They're hunted fugitives.

Road Warrior · Jun 21, 2019

Valjean said:
I disagree. A thing should be called what it is, and ignoring symptoms of an impending disease isn't going to prevent it. Why wait for a full-blown crisis before we mention it?

The psychosocial causes and political steps that led to these fascist and socialist regimes are well known. Hundreds of books have been written about it. How is suppressing clear symptoms of a resurgence going to prevent one?
"Those who forget [suppress] history...."
If a term is denotatively correct but carries incorrect connotations, I'd rather correct the false implications than suppress the whole message.

While I agree things should be called what they are, I disagree that the United States is equal to the Third Reich and that the detention centers are concentration camps with a focus on genocide. YMMV

Valjean · Jun 21, 2019

Road Warrior said:
While I agree things should be called what they are, I disagree that the United States is equal to the Third Reich and that the detention centers are concentration camps with a focus on genocide. YMMV

The Third Reich wasn't equal to the Third Reich -- in 1933.
I see many of the same psychosocial and economic forces at play today, here in the US, and even in Europe.
Frog in a saucepan?

We've become an oligarchy. Even X-President Carter has acknowleged this.
Mussolini equated Fascism with oligarchy: "the union of state and corporate power."
Britt pointed to a 14 point correspondence way back in '03. The 14 Characteristics of Fascism, by Lawrence Britt, Spring 2003

With Everything Changing How Can We Know the Consequences?

"To live in this process is absolutely not to be able to notice it - please try to believe me - unless one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of us had ever had occasion to develop. Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, "regretted," that, unless one were detached from the whole process from the beginning, unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these "little measures" that no "patriotic German" could resent must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. One day it is over his head."
Milton Meyer. They Thought They Were Free. p.168. Bolding mine.

It can happen here. Sweeping the early symptoms under the rug will only hasten the transition.

Twilight Hue · Jun 21, 2019

Valjean said:
Consider why they're undertaking such hardship and risk. Might American foreign policy have anything to to with it? Might the "invasion" be blowback?
2: Apparently they're arriving in such numbers that these shortages, of space and general necessities, are neither rare nor temporary.
We're quick to open the monetary spigots for anything military, no questions asked, but to help people, even to help our own citizens -- we can't afford it.
3: Free to leave, true, but why did they come here in the first place?
Free to hop out of the frying pan back into the fire is a Hobson's choice, isn't it?
The question is: How bad was it at home, that they're willing to endure such hardships and risk; that they're willing to stay in the frying pan?

What drove them here? Do we bear any responsibility for it? Is detention and punitive deterrence going to fix the problem, ie: repair the cause?
No, the policies and adventurism that created the conditions they're fleeing, were "conservative" initiatives, and opposed by us "radical liberals." The blame does not fall on us, and your band-aid solution isn't going to fix the underlying problem.

I think it's more of a case a few drones down there can't fix.

Why People Flee Honduras

Time for another Escobar style Roundup.

Valjean · Jun 21, 2019

Nowhere Man said:
I think it's more of a case a few drones down there can't fix.

Why People Flee Honduras

Time for another Escobar style Roundup.

I'm not following. Fix the problem by killing everybody? Is this lack of compassion typical of conservatives? (rhetorical Q).

Interesting article, but nothing everybody doesn't know already. Yes, people are fleeing for legitimate reasons. You would, too, in their situation. That's what refugees are.
The article fails to explain the history, though; how the country got to such a state. You need to understand causes before you can craft an effective response.

Escobar roundup? What does that mean?

fantome profane · Jun 21, 2019

24 immigrants have died in ICE custody during the Trump administration

We can all agree that 24 dead is a far cry from 6 million. But we are still talking about 24 people dead (and counting?).

Road Warrior · Jun 21, 2019

fantome profane said:
24 immigrants have died in ICE custody during the Trump administration

We can all agree that 24 dead is a far cry from 6 million. But we are still talking about 24 people dead (and counting?).

Agreed. It appears that some people don't find 24 human beings dying while in US custody to be alarming enough. Now they have to amplify to being equal to the genocide of 11 million Jews, Gypsies, gays, Soviets and mentally disabled. This amplification, as noted earlier, will have the result of watering down actual genocide and actual concentration camps to the point where most people stop listening.

fantome profane · Jun 21, 2019

Road Warrior said:
Agreed. It appears that some people don't find 24 human beings dying while in US custody to be alarming enough. Now they have to amplify to being equal to the genocide of 11 million Jews, Gypsies, gays, Soviets and mentally disabled. This amplification, as noted earlier, will have the result of watering down actual genocide and actual concentration camps to the point where most people stop listening.

But we can’t fall into the thinking that anything less than a holocaust is not so bad. We should aspire to more than just not being Hitler.

Stanyon · Jun 21, 2019

fantome profane said:
24 immigrants have died in ICE custody during the Trump administration

We can all agree that 24 dead is a far cry from 6 million. But we are still talking about 24 people dead (and counting?).

This number wouldn't have anything to do with the unprecedented increase in unaccompanied minors attempting to cross the border does it? It's at an all time high apparently, far more people=far more deaths but overall is it really an unprecedented increase in deaths or just about on par with the numbers in previous years?
We are talking about people that very well are suffering from dehydration, after effects of heat related injuries, malnourishment etc. from their journey or already sick to begin with. Just because they happen to die on our side of the fence does not automatically mean we were responsible for their deaths, there are a lot of factors in this.

But don't call them concentration camps

WWMRD?

What? Me worry?

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Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

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Seeking the middle path..

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Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice

Seeking the middle path..

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice

WWMRD?