Born again christian

A Vestigial Mote said:

The citations have been given, but it is entirely humorous to me that what are almost foundational tenets of a religion/faith can be based on one little citation that seems very much like it was only in there due to wording choice to represent a particular idea or as a metaphor.

"Born again" is something so common and thrown all over the place within certain Christian communities that you would think it was a subject with much depth and meaning. Instead... it is a side-note. A passing mention that somebody, at some point read and thought sounded profound.

So now it is a Christian meme, thought to [nearly] hold the secrets of the universe - when it is probably more equivalent to the rainbow farts of Nyan Cat.

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No, it's actually saying that there's a process that has be observed before you can get to heaven. That's to say, you're not a member of the club until you've been through the initiation ceremony.

It shows you just how old some of the basic sales techniques really are.

A Vestigial Mote said:

I think the point (and it is a valid one) is that even if you read a vast, VAST majority of The Bible, you won't find this idea of being, or needing to be, "born again." Note the references to scripture posted in this thread. So far I have seen one. ONE - and it seems to have been just a passing mention - a quick metaphor without much thought behind it. It apparently isn't a very important topic.

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Being "born again" is a valid experience in the context of religion. Some have had their faith from the beginning due to up-bringing or early exposure. But some people experience their faith or a deepening of their faith as a moment much later in time that sets their faith thereafter or deepens it from a more superficial depth.

Faithofchristian said:

Just out of curiosity.
Where does people get being a born again christian from.
Seeing there is no where in the Bible about being a born again christian.

How and where do people get this from

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I believe being born again is an important principle. While I understand most of you don't consider the Book of Mormon to be scrupture, it also teaches that we must all be born again. What this means is understood differently by different Christians, but neverthless it is an essential concept. I believe that when we are born again we become the children of Christ. Jesus, through his atoning sacrifice, becomes the Father of our new selves as we are re-born spiritually.

Scott C. said:

I believe being born again is an important principle. While I understand most of you don't consider the Book of Mormon to be scrupture, it also teaches that we must all be born again. What this means is understood differently by different Christians, but neverthless it is an essential concept. I believe that when we are born again we become the children of Christ. Jesus, through his atoning sacrifice, becomes the Father of our new selves as we are re-born spiritually.

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Can you show as to where Jesus Christ said what your saying, Otherwise your saying it and not Jesus Christ

Faithofchristian said:

Can you show as to where Jesus Christ said what your saying, Otherwise your saying it and not Jesus Christ

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We have no idea if anything quoted by the gospel writers, as being said by Jesus, actually came out of his mouth.

Did anyone notice that Jesus said "that which is born of the spirit IS spirit"? Flesh and blood people are NOT spirit and are NOT born again. We will be born again at the resurrection when we will be spirits.

leov said:

water and spirit, in physical body
(Water) into spirit body transformation (Spirit).

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Can you explain exactly how that fits with a womb of a woman.
John 3:4--"Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

So how does what your saying fit with the womb of a woman, that Jesus and Nicodemus are speaking about ?

What happens just before the baby is born from the womb of a woman?

The woman's water breaks, thereby the baby is born thru that water, thereby being born of the water.

And then as the child grows in knowing God's word, the child becomes born of the Spirit of God.
1 Peter 1:23---"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever"
Therefore being born again of the Spirit of God, is by the word of God.
Per 1 Peter 1:23.

JJ50 said:

We have no idea if anything quoted by the gospel writers, as being said by Jesus, actually came out of his mouth.

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If you can not believe the gospel writers, that your problem and not mine.

Faithofchristian said:

Just out of curiosity.
Where does people get being a born again christian from.
Seeing there is no where in the Bible about being a born again christian.

How and where do people get this from

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I believe this is it:
John 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Faithofchristian said:

There's nothing there about a Christian being born again.

Christians do however like anything else take things out of it's context in the Bible.

Nicodemus knows all to well that Christ Jesus is not talking about baptism, but something much deeper than baptism.

This why Nicodemus said to Jesus, can a man enter the womb of his mother the second time.
So by this, it's obvious that Jesus is not talking about baptism, but something to do with the womb of a woman.

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I believe then you are saying what Jesus says next is about entering a womb:
John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

JJ50 said:

You obviously haven't read the Bible!

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I believe you are jumping to a conclusion. Many people read the Bible and still come up with strange ideas about it.

Faithofchristian said:

Can you explain exactly how that fits with a womb of a woman.
John 3:4--"Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

So how does what your saying fit with the womb of a woman, that Jesus and Nicodemus are speaking about ?

What happens just before the baby is born from the womb of a woman?

The woman's water breaks, thereby the baby is born thru that water, thereby being born of the water.

And then as the child grows in knowing God's word, the child becomes born of the Spirit of God.
1 Peter 1:23---"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever"
Therefore being born again of the Spirit of God, is by the word of God.
Per 1 Peter 1:23.

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33“He who has received His testimony has set his seal to this, that God is true. " N. Understood it literally as born physically again, Jesus corrected him. His testimony comes from above.

Wandering Monk said:

'Born again' and 'new creation' are Jewish notions about converts to Judaism and are connected with the extra-biblical rituals in which a person who converted to Judaism had to be circumcised, then baptized in a mikvah (when he emerges he is reborn, the mikvah being equated with the womb; in this sense he was considered a new creation) then bringing a sacrifice to the Temple.

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And given that Jesus was actually a Jew who knew the scriptures and customs well, well... there you have it.

Jainarayan said:

And given that Jesus was actually a Jew who knew the scriptures and customs well, well... there you have it.

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I believe Jesus was not bound by Jewish custom. Nicodemus was and easily can be understood why he would say that. Also Nicodemus was already a Jew s he didn't need a conversion to Judaism.

I believe also a physical circumcision does not fit this statement by Jesus:
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Muffled said:

I believe Jesus was not bound by Jewish custom.

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Why? Was he Catholic or something?

It's talking about the indwelling of the spirit and salvation. How we were born sinners with nothing to change it, and can be redeemed with nothing to change it.
" Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."
"He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
"To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father."
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
'And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."

sealchan said:

Being "born again" is a valid experience in the context of religion. Some have had their faith from the beginning due to up-bringing or early exposure. But some people experience their faith or a deepening of their faith as a moment much later in time that sets their faith thereafter or deepens it from a more superficial depth.

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I understand what is thought of it in modern times. We were discussing how much support and exposure the idea has in scripture... which is apparently extremely little.

adrian009 said:

How about John 3:3?

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Yes. And yet, I do not think this is at all what Jesus meant.

Faithofchristian said:

Can you show as to where Jesus Christ said what your saying, Otherwise your saying it and not Jesus Christ

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Here are a few quotes from the Bible and the Book of Mormon:

John 3:3, 5-7
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God…
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

1 John 5: 1-5
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Book of Mormon, Mosiah 5:7
And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.

Book of Mormon, Mosiah 27:24-26
For, said he, I have repented of my sins, and have been redeemed of the Lord; behold I am born of the Spirit.
And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters;
And thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.

Wandering Monk said:

Says you. It doesn't contain ANY Jewish history between the Testaments.

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That doesn't negate the prior history.