Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
An ex-Muslim, Ballula, says there were Messengers in the past. The ex-Muslim, Ballula, says he is the latest greatest Messenger. That, in your opinion, is proof of God!
You embarrassed grin is acknowledged.Sure there are higher mountains but it would not be very easy for lots of people to go on pilgrimages up to the top of Mount Everest.
I don’t see a connection in the US to what is going on in politics to what is going on in religion. Religion is entirely left out of the picture. On the other hand in a country like Saudi Arabia, there, they probably do connect religion to politics since it is not a democracy.
Okay, so you are looking at this from the vantage point of Judaism. It is because Christianity distorted the gospel message and made Jesusinto God and made up the Trinity doctrine, which is not supported by the New Testament. So Jews are looking at that andsay Jesus cannot be the Messiah because God cannot be flesh. Fine, but why didn’t’ the Jews think in terms of Christianity being wrong about Jesus being God? One reason Jews could not see Jesus as a Prophet is because somewhere in Jewish scriptures it says there was a “last prophet” so there will be no more prophets. However, thoseverses were referring to lesser prophets like we see in the Old Testament --Solomon, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel -- not to the Greater Prophets who are universal Manifestations of God like Jesus.
It is true that Jesus did not do anything that the Jews expected the Messiah to do, fulfill the prophecies that apply to the Messianic Age, and there was no reason for Jews to believe that the Messiah would appear twice. The Old Testament is a mishmash of prophecies, and some of them apply to Jesus but most of them apply to the Messiah who would come and usher in the Messianic Age. One problem the Jews have is the way they interpret the prophecies. They have specific ideas about what these prophecies mean, so unless everything happens according to their expectation they will reject the Messiah. This is the same problem the Christians have. They are waiting for the same Jesus to appear in the sky with trumpet and angels for all to see (however that is possible) because they interpret certain prophecies literally. So, just as Jew are waiting for an actual temple to be built and they are waiting for all Jews to return to Israel, which is not what the prophecies say. Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah fulfilled bot these prophecies, but not in the way Jews expected, so of course they reject Baha’u’llah as the Messiah.
What you said about the law is very important. Paul changed it so that Christians would not need to follow the law and that is a distortion of what Jesus said.
That is true, all religions are stuck in the past, but that does not mean this issue will never be resolved. It just has not been resolved yet, but eventually it will be because God has ordained that eventually there will be only one religion, and Baha’u’llah, the Divine Physician, was the one who was designated to bring everyone together under one religion:
So you are an atheist just because of the Bible? Don’t you know that the Bible is not the only Holy Book that ever existed? I know that the reason for most atheists is the Bible, but I think that is rather sad, because the Bible does not negate the existence of God and what is in it is not necessarily anything God has really done. Sure it is confusing and contradictory; it was written by different men over a very long period of time. I do not even try to make sense out of the Bible, but of course I am a Baha’i, so I have the Revelation of Baha’u’llah, and it was written in His Own Pen, so it is authentic, and it is not contradictory. So my “basis” for belief in God is Baha’u’llah, not the Bible. Baha’u’llah validates the Bible and explains a lot of what it means, not everything, only what is important that we know in this new age.
It is primarily the Christians who have promoted the All-Loving God and overlooked what is in the Old Testament because it contradicts their “loving Jesus” conception of God. I find this to be dishonest, but it is what sells, because people want a loving God, not an angry wrathful God. But clearly God has wrath as well as love for humans. I would never deny this, not only because of what is in the Bible, but also because of what Baha’u’llah wrote. That does not mean that God is not benevolent, but God cares about justice and that is why He cannot be loving when love is unwarranted.
And God decided to reveal Himself through what I call Manifestations of God (Messengers, Prophets), men who have a dual nature:
This idea that nonbeliever have that God is omnipotent so God can do “anything” is really rather childish as what they are really saying is that God should do what I think God should do, not what God actually does. It is also illogical because what totally eludes them is that an omnipotent God only does what He chooses to do, not what humans want Him to do.
No, I did not read it. I do not have time to read everything that is posted in the Baha’i Library online. I do not know why Shoghi Effendi changed the words. There is probably an explanation, but if there was any intent to conceal it, it would not be posted in the Baha’i Library online.
That Tablet was written in 1869 when Napoleon was at the height of His glory. . In 1870, Napoleon III fell in battle:
There were two Tablets written to Napoleon III. I do not know the date of the first Tablet. I assume the second Tablet was written because Napoleon III “cast behind his back” the first Tablet. This is addressed in God Passes By.
Accepting donations is not taking money, it is accepting money that Baha’is freely choose to donate. How do you think a large religious organization can operate with no money?
There is a reason why the grounds AT THE Baha’i World Centre look like that...
On the Free Will thread, I already explained that there are NO sects of the Baha’i Faith and I explained why. If you really want to understand the details as to why I suggest you read the book entitled:
Baha’u’llah never said He was the “greatest Messenger.”
I have nothing to be embarrassed about. Your comments are just very funny.
Im not saying anyone is correct here about their beliefs, just how each religion view is on this is from a very basic explanation. And to really understand the differences one would have to go way deeper than I have done here, obviously. So the Jews interpret prophecies a certain way and Christians another and you a third. But the only thing that tells us is that people have different views on these and not everyone agree what these means or whether they have been furfilled or not. But if you look at it from a Jewish point of view, it sort of makes sense why they reject the Messiah, if it have been told to them, what such person will do. Its no different that you wouldn't accept someone claiming something about Baha'i, which you know or think is to be understood differently.
In general religion can subdue science, the moment that it contradict the scriptures. As I think you told me you don't believe that humans shares a common ancestor with apes right? But science tells us that this is in fact the case, so the only reason you don't believe this, is because as with many other religions humans have to be special in the eyes of God. So this subduing of science happens in all religions, some have then argued that God created evolution, to make things fit. Which is very common, whenever science discover something that contradict the religious text, its somehow always possible for religious people to twist it, into either this is what the scriptures actually say or God made it this way. And to me its acceptable, if people at least can hold the position that God made it that way and therefore accept the science.
I chose to look at the Bible, because a lot of the other religions are based on this. The bible is "one" of the books that tells us about a God, if it didn't exist, then none of the big religions would be here. So atheist looking at the bible to decide whether they find it reasonable for a God to exist as described in the book, is a pretty good way to go about it. And to me, yes, the bible made me a firm atheist, because of all the contradictions in it, compared to what people say God is. The lack of evidence for things described in it actually being true. That science clearly shows that the bible is wrong. So adding all these things together, I see no reason to believe any of it as being true and therefore God as well.
To me that would be a judgement we would have to make by first defining what we mean with "benevolent", "justice" and "love" and then we could go through the bible to see if God actually live up to this. I see no other way to do that.
Keep in mind that this part of the discussion is purely based on how I would make my revelation if I were God. Not how God have done it.
I don't think its childish, because that is the claim that is made. Otherwise why don't religious people just say that God have limits and there are some things he just can't do? Also there is no problem with wanting people to believe that he can make a Universe, humans from dirt, flood the world, decide natural laws, that he command and rule over something called heaven, that he have created angels etc. But doing things that seems way more basic is considered childish and completely unbelievable for him to be capable of. Yet people can't explain why a omnipotent, omniscient God is unable to, it makes little sense, compared to what else we are suppose to believe in as being true.
The difference between the Baha’i Faith vs. Judaism and Christianity is that the Baha’is can point to the Bible prophecies and demonstrate how they were actually fulfilled by Baha’u’llah by real events that have taken place in the world as well as real places that exist in the world as the result of the Coming of Baha’u’llah. These events and places are described in the prophecies. By contrast, the Jews and Christians don’t have anything but a hope of things to come, and they project what they hope will happen onto the meaning of the prophecies. They can keep waiting for those things to happen as they hope they will, but meanwhile those prophecies have already been fulfilled.
That is true, but nowhere in those prophecies does it say exactly when those things will happen. The messianic age prophecies refer to an age, not a specific time. Since we are only in the very beginning of that age, some are in the process of fulfillment and some such as an end to all war have not all been fulfilled yet. For example…
Baha’is believe that humans descended from the apes but somewhere during the process of evolution humans became a separate species and at that time we were instilled with a soul, which is a sign of God.
Okay, I understand why you looked at the Bible. It is supposed to be about God but what reason do we have to believe that, what proof do we have? The Bible was written by men, not by God and not by a Messenger of God (Prophet). On top of that, there are a lot of transcription and translation errors, and that explains the contradictions. If I had to rely upon the Bible to believe in God, I probably would never have believed in God for the same reasons you noted.
I do not see the logic in that UNLESS there are no other scriptures for you to look at. But there are. The Qur’an is a lot more authentic than the Bible, and the Writings of Baha’u’llah are the most authentic scriptures that exist since Baha’u’llah wrote them with His Own Pen. If there had never been a Bible, I would believe in God just from the Writings of Baha’u’llah and what He says about God, because it makes logical sense and it explains so much. By contrast, the Bible is a mass of verses that contradict each other and there is no way to make it all fit together. It can be interpreted in so many different ways and obviously, that is why there are so many different sects of Christianity and even Judaism.
I do not think these stories represent God and what God did. They are anthropomorphisms. Nobody can know what God did or does in this world. God is unknowable. All we can know about God is what a Messenger of God reveals about God, God’s Attributes and God’s Will for any given age in history.
No, you cannot use the Bible to demonstrate the character of God. There is no proof that God did any of what it says about Him. For example, Baha’is do not believe that God flooded the whole world. That is just a story men wrote.
How could you know what God could do to reveal Himself?
God being omnipotent does not mean God can do anything, it means God has unlimited power. God cannot do what is not within His nature to do, so God cannot become a man, because if God became a man, God would no longer be God. This is one area where Christianity went way off track. They wanted so badly to have a personal relationship with God that they made Jesus into God. Baha’is believe God is personal in a sense but we cannot relate to God directly, only through His Messengers, what we normally refer to as Manifestations of God.
Nobody knows how God did all of the things you mention, that is a mystery. God did not flood the world or create angels. The flood is a story and angels are just humans who are very spiritual.
Im not sure where to start
It only makes sense because you believe it to be true, not to anyone else, even from a logic or rational point of view. Which is what people forget or throw out the window whenever they talk about their religion, but lets make a very quick timeline.
Science doesn't claim we have a divine soul and no one have presented evidence of it to exist, so there is nothing to test for science. This is no different than me saying that science haven't proven that Chimpanzees doesn't have a divine guarding angel send to protect them by God, therefore it must be true or at least there is no contradiction between my claim and science. It makes little sense to reason like that.
Ok, I thought I made this clear already.
But ill do it again. You originally asked me, how I/ME would reveal my self if I were God, because I said that I thought he did it in a stupid way. So I gave you an example of how I personally would do it. So it have nothing to do with how people believe God of the bible does it. So to answer you question, I have no clue. It was not what this question was about, simply that I think God does it in a very poor way, compared to how I would do it..I get that, but that argument is like saying that God can't make a round square or divide by 0 (We all know that only Chuck Norris can do that
)Following up from the last answer, just above. There seems to be no issues with God doing these things, but those we qualify as mysteries. Do you see why it seems to me like there is a lack of consistency?
Sorry if I have confused you. As a Baha’i, I have to believe that the Bible was divinely inspired, but then I have to ask what that means. The Bible is a Pandora’s Box. I cannot say I know what is true and what is false. All I can say is that “I believe” that the religious dispensations of the past have been abrogated by the Dispensation of Baha’u’llah so they no longer apply to the present age. Of course I think I already told you that.
I appreciate that you are trying to be fair to all sides and that says a lot about you as a person. From my point of view, I just want to know the Truth, whatever it is.
Which you do because you are convince that this is about Baha'u'llah, yet you have just concluded that the bible is filled with errors, so why shouldn't this also be an error? And for Christians this is Jesus that we are talking about.
To be clear, I am not saying that everything in the OT and NT is wrong. The spiritual teachings are true, but the basic message and the social teachings and laws no longer apply to this age, as time has marched on and people and the world we live in are different than they were thousands of years ago. But since the spiritual nature of man does not change, whatever is spiritual truth is eternal and it is still valid. I have problems with the stories written about God and what God did because I do not know how those who wrote those stories got their information.
There is only One God, and that God is represented accurately in the Bible, just not all the stories. Here are “some” of the Attributes of that God that are the same in Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and the Baha’i Faith: Eternal, Holy, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Wise, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, Sovereign, Righteous, Immaterial, Good, Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Forgiving, Patient.
We cannot know the intrinsic nature of God (what I refer to as the Essence of God), all we can know are the Attributes of God (as noted above) and the way we know the Attributes is from (1) what was written in scriptures, and (2) what is reflected in the Manifestations of God, since they are perfect reflections of God’s Attributes.
I guess you are referring to Biblical scriptures? I already explained my position on that above.
I am not saying it must be true because it has not been contradicted by science. I am saying “I believe” it is true, based upon my religious beliefs and other sources of information.
You say that God using Messengers is a poor way but you do not have a better way. You still have not told me how you would do it and why it would be better. If God spoke directly to every human being on earth, revealing the equivalent of the 15,000 tablets He revealed to Baha’u’llah to every person on Earth, most people would not be able to understand any of it, let alone all of it. Nobody but a Messenger of God (who has a divine mind) can understand the language of God.Ok, I thought I made this clear already.But ill do it again. You originally asked me, how I/ME would reveal my self if I were God, because I said that I thought he did it in a stupid way. So I gave you an example of how I personally would do it. So it have nothing to do with how people believe God of the bible does it. So to answer you question, I have no clue. It was not what this question was about, simply that I think God does it in a very poor way, compared to how I would do it.
I am sorry, but I still do not understand how you think God should reveal Himself to humans.I get that, but that argument is like saying that God can't make a round square or divide by 0 (We all know that only Chuck Norris can do that)
So these are not the stuff I demand God to be able to do, but in regards to how God could reveal himself to us. These are not unreasonable things.
Some things God actually did are a mystery because we cannot know HOW God did these things, but some things the Bible says God did God did not do at all, not the way people believe He did them. Much of it is about the interpretation of verses, whether people interpret them literally or figuratively.
I get the impression that you are interested in truth and that it actually matters to you? As you write: From my point of view, I just want to know the Truth, whatever it is.
I fully agree.
I understand your point.
The issues are simply not taken serious by those that run our countries.