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Is it even proper to use the verb "to believe" as an indicator of adherence to religion?

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
I have recently written an answer elsewhere for a question about why some people insist on attempting to declare atheism a "religion".

Sometimes writing such a reply enables me to put things together. This time, I realized that far as I am concerned it is just weird to expect someone to "believe" in a deity, let alone in a presumed religion.

Christianity and, above all, Islaam do. Which is why they actually have words ("Infidel" and "Kafir") that hold the twin meanings of "liar" and "unbeliever".

Those are very disparate meanings, but within the scope of their doctrines they end up meeting and perhaps fusing.

Christianity and Islaam expect people to believe in the validity and "truth" (in the sense of correspondence to the reality of facts) of their respective doctrines, barring impediments of lack of awareness or mental or moral failure to grasp those doctrines.

Frankly, that expectation does not speak well of either doctrine. Not in the slightest. Their continued reliance on such an unreasonable expectation may well have doomed both, even. At the very least, it strongly compromises their very ability to function as (presumed) religions.

If nothing else, they are certainly unique in their relationships with their god-concepts. Generally speaking, deities tend to be abstractions or idealizations. Not so with YHWH and/or Allah, who is presumably fit for an entirely different treatment, perhaps even as the backer of a supremely exalted bet that is nonetheless presented as being somehow religious in nature.

That is a very exotic proposal for the relationship between a religious doctrine and its own deities. And I fear that as time went by, the efforts of many to attain dialog with those doctrines with a penchant for raising armies with a desire to take arms "for God" may have taught the wrong lessons elsewhere. In seeking common ground for a mutual understanding, some measure of cultural contamination may have occurred, spreading some of the self-inflicted confusion about the nature and role of deities from the Abrahamics to other groups.

That is very unfortunate.

The way I see it, it makes literally no sense to purport to believe in a deity. One either has use for a deity, or one does not. And when we use a deity, there is no question of whether we believe in it. Any concept that we use is real for the purposes of that use, even if it is self-contradictory or insane. Deities are no exception, nor do we have any reason to want them to be an exception.

Yet it would appear that, for many Christians and most Muslims, religion should be mostly about proclaiming the belief in the truth of their God. That is a wasteful and often harmful goal, which at best keeps them occupied when they could better use their energies for religious pursuits proper.

Because religion is not really about belief, except perhaps by a very cynical and heavily politized view. Belief is something that happens, but does not deserve to be nurtured. Religion at its best is not about belief, but rather about values, goals, and the means of nurturing and expressing them.
"why some people insist on attempting to declare atheism a "religion" "

Cause of "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. ".
With the enthusiasm they defend "Atheism/Agnosticism/Skepticism", therefore they fall into the term "Religions". Right, please?

Regards
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Honestly, I just can't tell whether you are disagreeing with me or agreeing instead.
your opening post displayed the obvious fault in belief
people nodding their heads and following
and often times getting duped into behavior that is less than grace

but that's not God's fault
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
"why some people insist on attempting to declare atheism a "religion" "

Cause of "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. ".
With the enthusiasm they defend "Atheism/Agnosticism/Skepticism", therefore they fall into the term "Religions". Right, please?

Regards
You know, @paarsurrey , it is answers like this that convince me that Islaam not only is not a religion, but also that it has a huge responsibility in spreading serious misguidance about the very nature and role of religion and of theism.

I do not want to be rude, but there is no helping it. You are displaying a complete lack of understanding of both religion and theism by answering that way.

Unfortunately, there is nothing constructive that I can do when faced with such an answer beyond accepting that you have trouble with the basic concepts and reminding myself that it is not reasonable to expect Muslims to have a working understanding of those.

You have been given so little notion of what a religion would be that even atheism looks like it could serve as one. That is quite misguided indeed.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
your opening post displayed the obvious fault in belief

If the attempt is made to use belief as the lynchpin of religion, you mean? Indeed.

people nodding their heads and following
and often times getting duped into behavior that is less than grace

but that's not God's fault

No. It is the fault of people who raise God-belief to a central role in their lives and/or their religious practice.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
If the attempt is made to use belief as the lynchpin of religion, you mean? Indeed.



No. It is the fault of people who raise God-belief to a central role in their lives and/or their religious practice.
oops.....

if God be god.....then He IS central to the belief and practice
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
oops.....

if God be god.....then He IS central to the belief and practice
By your understanding, apparently.

I for one refuse to take part on such an understanding. It is quite misguided, despite having a huge amount of supporters.

Religion is not supposed to be about validating what, by any sane account, neither needs nor can benefit from out attention.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
By your understanding, apparently.

I for one refuse to take part on such an understanding. It is quite misguided, despite having a huge amount of supporters.

Religion is not supposed to be about validating what, by any sane account, neither needs nor can benefit from out attention.
religion is how people try to connect with God

I don't have a religion
I lean to the notion I can do so without someone else leading the way

but most people having a belief
channel that belief toward that Person

the dogma gets in the way
to this point we might agree
 
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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
religion is how people try to connect with God

Sometimes. But even when it actually is, that is not and should not be a license to surrender their judgement and their responsibility to whatever conception of God they might turn out to have.

The tail is not supposed to wave the dog.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Sometimes. But even when it actually is, that is not and should not be a license to surrender their judgement and their responsibility to whatever conception of God they might turn out to have.

The tail is not supposed to wave the dog.
well not believing in Someone Greater.....
how can you be sure ?

if God is not a better judge than you are

then.....you are greater than God

and that is contrary to what a god should be
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
well not believing in Someone Greater.....
how can you be sure ?

if God is not a better judge than you are

then.....you are greater than God

and that is contrary to what a god should be
I have no time for such a conception of deity.

Honestly, I don't understand why anyone would.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
You are not.

That in no way implies that one should adhere to an Abrahamic model of deity.
or any other deity?

so....I am not top of the line life form
and I should go about my business as if God and heaven
don't give a damn

and They might not
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
I have recently written an answer elsewhere for a question about why some people insist on attempting to declare atheism a "religion".

Sometimes writing such a reply enables me to put things together. This time, I realized that far as I am concerned it is just weird to expect someone to "believe" in a deity, let alone in a presumed religion.

Christianity and, above all, Islaam do. Which is why they actually have words ("Infidel" and "Kafir") that hold the twin meanings of "liar" and "unbeliever".

Those are very disparate meanings, but within the scope of their doctrines they end up meeting and perhaps fusing.

Christianity and Islaam expect people to believe in the validity and "truth" (in the sense of correspondence to the reality of facts) of their respective doctrines, barring impediments of lack of awareness or mental or moral failure to grasp those doctrines.

Frankly, that expectation does not speak well of either doctrine. Not in the slightest. Their continued reliance on such an unreasonable expectation may well have doomed both, even. At the very least, it strongly compromises their very ability to function as (presumed) religions.

If nothing else, they are certainly unique in their relationships with their god-concepts. Generally speaking, deities tend to be abstractions or idealizations. Not so with YHWH and/or Allah, who is presumably fit for an entirely different treatment, perhaps even as the backer of a supremely exalted bet that is nonetheless presented as being somehow religious in nature.

That is a very exotic proposal for the relationship between a religious doctrine and its own deities. And I fear that as time went by, the efforts of many to attain dialog with those doctrines with a penchant for raising armies with a desire to take arms "for God" may have taught the wrong lessons elsewhere. In seeking common ground for a mutual understanding, some measure of cultural contamination may have occurred, spreading some of the self-inflicted confusion about the nature and role of deities from the Abrahamics to other groups.

That is very unfortunate.

The way I see it, it makes literally no sense to purport to believe in a deity. One either has use for a deity, or one does not. And when we use a deity, there is no question of whether we believe in it. Any concept that we use is real for the purposes of that use, even if it is self-contradictory or insane. Deities are no exception, nor do we have any reason to want them to be an exception.

Yet it would appear that, for many Christians and most Muslims, religion should be mostly about proclaiming the belief in the truth of their God. That is a wasteful and often harmful goal, which at best keeps them occupied when they could better use their energies for religious pursuits proper.

Because religion is not really about belief, except perhaps by a very cynical and heavily politized view. Belief is something that happens, but does not deserve to be nurtured. Religion at its best is not about belief, but rather about values, goals, and the means of nurturing and expressing them.


I think that all religions are layered and adherents do not remain static in a single layer.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
or any other deity?

Deities come in all flavors, you know. Literally all that it takes to build one is someone deciding to regard something or someone, either real or abstract, as such.

so....I am not top of the line life form
and I should go about my business as if God and heaven
don't give a damn

and They might not

I don't even know if the "I" would be you or me or someone else.

Can't say that I care.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I think that all religions are layered and adherents do not remain static in a single layer.
True enough, @atanu (meaning that it is mostly true; there seem to always be exceptions when one talks about religions in general).

But it seems to work a lot better for some than for others, in no small measure because they vary considerably on their ability to adapt to reality; also, some try to warp reality instead of adapting to it.
 

The Reverend Bob

Fart Machine and Beastmaster
Perhaps when addressing the unprovable and supernatural elements of a religion the adherents should begin with "I imagine..." or "I am pretending that..."
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
I have recently written an answer elsewhere for a question about why some people insist on attempting to declare atheism a "religion".

Sometimes writing such a reply enables me to put things together. This time, I realized that far as I am concerned it is just weird to expect someone to "believe" in a deity, let alone in a presumed religion.

Christianity and, above all, Islaam do. Which is why they actually have words ("Infidel" and "Kafir") that hold the twin meanings of "liar" and "unbeliever".

Those are very disparate meanings, but within the scope of their doctrines they end up meeting and perhaps fusing.

Christianity and Islaam expect people to believe in the validity and "truth" (in the sense of correspondence to the reality of facts) of their respective doctrines, barring impediments of lack of awareness or mental or moral failure to grasp those doctrines.

Frankly, that expectation does not speak well of either doctrine. Not in the slightest. Their continued reliance on such an unreasonable expectation may well have doomed both, even. At the very least, it strongly compromises their very ability to function as (presumed) religions.

If nothing else, they are certainly unique in their relationships with their god-concepts. Generally speaking, deities tend to be abstractions or idealizations. Not so with YHWH and/or Allah, who is presumably fit for an entirely different treatment, perhaps even as the backer of a supremely exalted bet that is nonetheless presented as being somehow religious in nature.

That is a very exotic proposal for the relationship between a religious doctrine and its own deities. And I fear that as time went by, the efforts of many to attain dialog with those doctrines with a penchant for raising armies with a desire to take arms "for God" may have taught the wrong lessons elsewhere. In seeking common ground for a mutual understanding, some measure of cultural contamination may have occurred, spreading some of the self-inflicted confusion about the nature and role of deities from the Abrahamics to other groups.

That is very unfortunate.

The way I see it, it makes literally no sense to purport to believe in a deity. One either has use for a deity, or one does not. And when we use a deity, there is no question of whether we believe in it. Any concept that we use is real for the purposes of that use, even if it is self-contradictory or insane. Deities are no exception, nor do we have any reason to want them to be an exception.

Yet it would appear that, for many Christians and most Muslims, religion should be mostly about proclaiming the belief in the truth of their God. That is a wasteful and often harmful goal, which at best keeps them occupied when they could better use their energies for religious pursuits proper.

Because religion is not really about belief, except perhaps by a very cynical and heavily politized view. Belief is something that happens, but does not deserve to be nurtured. Religion at its best is not about belief, but rather about values, goals, and the means of nurturing and expressing them.

LuisDantas..... I follow your posts often and agree with them for the most part. this one is a head scratcher to me. Can you maybe repackage it a bit and try again? sorry for by obtuseness.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
LuisDantas..... I follow your posts often and agree with them for the most part. this one is a head scratcher to me. Can you maybe repackage it a bit and try again? sorry for by obtuseness.
Maybe it helps if I tell you that deities, as I understand them, are something for the adherent to choose and take responsibility for - and, in fact, to create and destroy if he or she feels like it?

The way I see it, Christianity and Islaam have lost their ways in the very act of making their doctrines rely on the very literal existence of their gods.
 

Road Warrior

Seeking the middle path..
Is it even proper to use the verb "to believe" as an indicator of adherence to religion?

I have recently written an answer elsewhere for a question about why some people insist on attempting to declare atheism a "religion".

Sometimes writing such a reply enables me to put things together. This time, I realized that far as I am concerned it is just weird to expect someone to "believe" in a deity, let alone in a presumed religion.

Christianity and, above all, Islaam do. Which is why they actually have words ("Infidel" and "Kafir") that hold the twin meanings of "liar" and "unbeliever".

Those are very disparate meanings, but within the scope of their doctrines they end up meeting and perhaps fusing.

Christianity and Islaam expect people to believe in the validity and "truth" (in the sense of correspondence to the reality of facts) of their respective doctrines, barring impediments of lack of awareness or mental or moral failure to grasp those doctrines.

Frankly, that expectation does not speak well of either doctrine. Not in the slightest. Their continued reliance on such an unreasonable expectation may well have doomed both, even. At the very least, it strongly compromises their very ability to function as (presumed) religions.

If nothing else, they are certainly unique in their relationships with their god-concepts. Generally speaking, deities tend to be abstractions or idealizations. Not so with YHWH and/or Allah, who is presumably fit for an entirely different treatment, perhaps even as the backer of a supremely exalted bet that is nonetheless presented as being somehow religious in nature.

That is a very exotic proposal for the relationship between a religious doctrine and its own deities. And I fear that as time went by, the efforts of many to attain dialog with those doctrines with a penchant for raising armies with a desire to take arms "for God" may have taught the wrong lessons elsewhere. In seeking common ground for a mutual understanding, some measure of cultural contamination may have occurred, spreading some of the self-inflicted confusion about the nature and role of deities from the Abrahamics to other groups.

That is very unfortunate.

The way I see it, it makes literally no sense to purport to believe in a deity. One either has use for a deity, or one does not. And when we use a deity, there is no question of whether we believe in it. Any concept that we use is real for the purposes of that use, even if it is self-contradictory or insane. Deities are no exception, nor do we have any reason to want them to be an exception.

Yet it would appear that, for many Christians and most Muslims, religion should be mostly about proclaiming the belief in the truth of their God. That is a wasteful and often harmful goal, which at best keeps them occupied when they could better use their energies for religious pursuits proper.

Because religion is not really about belief, except perhaps by a very cynical and heavily politized view. Belief is something that happens, but does not deserve to be nurtured. Religion at its best is not about belief, but rather about values, goals, and the means of nurturing and expressing them.
Yes, since most adherents to a religion are believers.

However, I agree that not all followers of dogmatic religions are “believers”. They follow the rules of the dogma and give lip-service to the faith, but I wouldn’t consider them actual believers of the faith. Example: Members of the KKK.

BTW, I just saw BlacKKKLansman on DVD. Great movie. The juxtaposition of KKK members talking about Christianity and White Supremacy versus listening to the horrors of racial prejudice from Harry Belafonte’s character was very moving. Great job Spike Lee!
 
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