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Science cannot solve the final mystery

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
And if they disagree with me not on the basis of evidence or the lack thereof but because their ASD simply prevents them from accepting all of the clear evidence for a transcendent, beginningless, timeless, spaceless, immaterial, unchanging, omnipotent, personal and good being as the efficient cause for our universe's existence, i.e., God Almighty?

Or it may be that they see that what you consider to be evidence isn't as well supported as you think?

Once again, what do you see as being the 'clear evidence' for a 'transcendent, beginningless, etc' being? And why is an inability to understand metaphor linked to an inability to see these as clear evidence?
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
So those born blind can in fact see the shades of blue, for instance, or those born deaf can literally hear songs? Seriously?

No, but they *can* use instruments to determine that there are different wavelengths of light, and the deaf can verify that sounds (vibrations) do, in fact exist.

Just like we can realize that radio waves exist without seeing them.

The logical processes can still give knowledge of things we do not directly experience, even if there is a neurological problem preventing someone from detecting things.

So, what about autism, in your viewpoint, is it that makes it less likely (not impossible) than an autistic will believe in a deity?

Could it be that they are *more* logical (which other evidence supports--more autism in computer science and math for example)? Could it be that the arguments you see as clear are, in reality, not clear at all for someone who wishes to have a logical basis for their beliefs? and that autistics are simply less likely to be lead astray by irrelevancies (like metaphors)?
 

Maximilian

Energetic proclaimer of Jehovah God's Kingdom.
Or it may be that they see that what you consider to be evidence isn't as well supported as you think?

Once again, what do you see as being the 'clear evidence' for a 'transcendent, beginningless, etc' being? And why is an inability to understand metaphor linked to an inability to see these as clear evidence?

Because the same neurological deficits that prohibit those with ASD to understand metaphors, sarcasm or the suffering of others is the same which makes it impossible for them to understand that reality extends beyond what can be directly observed through our extremely limited senses such as is the case with our Magnificent Creator, Jehovah God.

So even though his existence is a logical necessity perforce, the just can't understand the same way a person born blind can never comprehend the majesty of an exquisite painting or one whose never heard sounds their entire life can't be moved by a sublime aria.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Because the same neurological deficits that prohibit those with ASD to understand metaphors, sarcasm or the suffering of others is the same which makes it impossible for them to understand that reality extends beyond what can be directly observed through our extremely limited senses such as is the case with our Magnificent Creator, Jehovah God.

Nope. Everybody knows that reality extends well beyond what can be observed through our limited senses. For example, radio waves and ultrasound. What you have failed to do is make a case for your creator deity that is even close to being as strong as the case for, say, dark matter.

And, let's be clear, those subjects where logic is most used are exactly those subjects dominated by people on the spectrum (math, physics, etc). Those subjects least likely to be dominated by logic are also those that have the fewest people on the spectrum. Coincidence?

So even though his existence is a logical necessity perforce, the just can't understand the same way a person born blind can never comprehend the majesty of an exquisite painting or one whose never heard sounds their entire life can't be moved by a sublime aria.

Yes, everyone has seen the CA and most of us know the many flaws in that argument. Why is it that those inclined to belief in deities don't see the obvious flaws?
 

charlie sc

Well-Known Member
No, but they *can* use instruments to determine that there are different wavelengths of light, and the deaf can verify that sounds (vibrations) do, in fact exist.

Just like we can realize that radio waves exist without seeing them.

The logical processes can still give knowledge of things we do not directly experience, even if there is a neurological problem preventing someone from detecting things.

So, what about autism, in your viewpoint, is it that makes it less likely (not impossible) than an autistic will believe in a deity?

Could it be that they are *more* logical (which other evidence supports--more autism in computer science and math for example)? Could it be that the arguments you see as clear are, in reality, not clear at all for someone who wishes to have a logical basis for their beliefs? and that autistics are simply less likely to be lead astray by irrelevancies (like metaphors)?
I'm waiting for him to ask if you have ASD and subsequently shut down the conversation completely.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
You're comparing, "reality itself," to an onion.

Yes and no.

I'm suggesting that reality obeys a logic of which we can see only the outermost layer.

I don't know how many layers of "onion" is on the inside and there could be nearly as many as there are events but it's likely only several or some layers inside. If the entirety of all this logic could be understood then reality and events would be perfectly logical. Our language would still be confused but we would have complete understanding of how and why things occur. Of course we still couldn't predict anything because we still couldn't quantify all the variables necessary to make small scale or long term predictions. The equations themselves would be remarkably complex.

But the deeper we look into the layers the better our ability to make predictions will become.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Your definition doesn't say that a god(s) is required. Only a "superhuman" is required. :D

Aren't there major religions that are essentially atheist; that treat the concept of God as inconsequential?

I was responding to the above claim. I know of no religion that is essentially atheist that claims a god or superhuman entity is inconsequential.
 

Maximilian

Energetic proclaimer of Jehovah God's Kingdom.
So, let's get to it. Why is it that an inability to understand metaphors makes for a disbelief in deities? Could it be that autistics are generally less willing to put up with unsupported, vaguely defined, and not logically supported ideas?

I already addressed that question at length here.
 

Maximilian

Energetic proclaimer of Jehovah God's Kingdom.
So is science-based thinking. The problem is whether that extreme cognitive processing is more or less accurate in this case.



And “if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.” -Maslow


Stated more explicitly, your Scientism or just Radical Positivism is a terribly parochial philosophy of knowledge. On this opinion, there is certainly absolutely nothing good or evil, right or wrong, exquisite or hideous. Even so, can it be tenable to believe that experimental truth is the one and only truth that exists? That simply no aesthetic, moral, metaphysical or otherwise putative facts obtain?


Abiding by this view, for starters, the Atheist who rapes a little kid to death ( or engages in this: Abortistas atacan a católicos que defendían la Catedral de San Juan ) is doing absolutely nothing wrong. Exactly why ought we agree to such a conclusion resulting merely from an epistemological limit? Isn’t this an indication that you ought to unlock the ambit of your beliefs and incorporate all the other different types of truth that abound?


Withal, the core principles of Gödel’s Second Incompleteness Theorem altogether gainsays Radical Positivism’s initial assumption. In fact, Science is suffused with assumptions that can never be verified scientifically. The epistemology of radical positivism, as a result, abrogates science itself.


Take, for instance, the concept of induction. It just cannot be scientifically defended. Attempting to render a conclusive inductive line of reasoning for radical positivism is ridiculous as this begs the question by presupposing the legitimacy of inductive reasoning, to begin with!


All the more devastating to your beliefs is the fact that radical positivism is self-refuting. At its heart, this pernicious conviction demands that we not accept any belief that cannot be scientifically verified. But what of that very supposition? It cannot per se be scientifically tested out much less corroborated. As a result, we ought not to believe it. Your Radical Positivism, as a result, asphyxiates itself.


Alternatively, as Gödel’s Incompleteness Theorem makes evident, ‘Whatsoever may be bounded cannot explicate itself without referring to that which is without itself - some postulate whose certainty is unobtainable.’


This is just what famed Physicist and Mathematician James Clerk Maxwell alluded to when he came to the conclusion, “Science is incompetent to reason upon the creation of matter itself out of nothing. We have reached the utmost limit of our thinking faculties when we have admitted that because matter cannot be eternal and self-existent, it must have been created.”
 

Audie

Veteran Member
To be fair (bend over backwards fair), I have seen atheists argue that theists have a sort of mental illness. The argument doens't work well either direction.

Not so of all, but I think some sects probably
do require either pre existing or induced mental
illness of some sort.
 
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