Questions about Judaism

YoursTrue · Jun 17, 2019

YoursTrue said:
Thank you for your reply. How very interesting. So, Moses began writing somewhere in 1500 BCE, would you agree with that? After all, when I went to synagogue that rabbi (a reform one, if you haven't guessed by now) taught us nothing about the Scriptures themselves, such as when they were written, and things like that. I mean there were festivals and they did reading from the Torah weekly, but I don't remember much instruction about it. Since I find the subject interesting, I hope you won't mind discussing it with me.

And I do have a question. You said it was impossible to have prophecy after the first destruction of the temple in jerus

Tumah said:
I hear you, but I think it should be obvious that this would be a difference between religious and non-religious Jews.

Because it became impossible to gain that level of prophecy after the destruction of the First Temple. So only the people who were already prophets at that point, were able to carry on.

Why would you say that is? And what about the second temple built by Zerubbabel?

Tumah · Jun 18, 2019

YoursTrue said:
Thank you for your reply. How very interesting. So, Moses began writing somewhere in 1500 BCE, would you agree with that? After all, when I went to synagogue that rabbi (a reform one, if you haven't guessed by now) taught us nothing about the Scriptures themselves, such as when they were written, and things like that. I mean there were festivals and they did reading from the Torah weekly, but I don't remember much instruction about it. Since I find the subject interesting, I hope you won't mind discussing it with me.

According to our tradition, the Torah was written in the year 1313 BCE.

YoursTrue said:
And I do have a question. You said it was impossible to have prophecy after the first destruction of the temple in jerus

Why would you say that is? And what about the second temple built by Zerubbabel?

The Second Temple was lacking in anything related to prophecy. There was no Ark of the Covenant, Urim/Thumim, Divine Presence, prophecy, etc. At least one Rabbi speculates that idolatry and prophecy are two side of the same coin and by the beginning of the Second Temple era, there was no desire for idolatry anymore.

YoursTrue · Jun 18, 2019

Tumah said:
According to our tradition, the Torah was written in the year 1313 BCE.

The Second Temple was lacking in anything related to prophecy. There was no Ark of the Covenant, Urim/Thumim, Divine Presence, prophecy, etc. At least one Rabbi speculates that idolatry and prophecy are two side of the same coin and by the beginning of the Second Temple era, there was no desire for idolatry anymore.

Worship, however, continued being offered at the second temple, until it was destroyed by the Romans in the 1st century.

Tumah · Jun 19, 2019

YoursTrue said:
Worship, however, continued being offered at the second temple, until it was destroyed by the Romans in the 1st century.

The understanding is that the idolatry wasn't just about the physical act of obeisance towards a rock. There was some element of communion with what we would consider a force of impurity that was the driving force behind the desire to worship the rock in the first place. Parallel to that, prophecy (with the exception of Moses) takes place when a prophet enters a heightened state of communion with G-d or is induced into such a state by G-d.
The First Temple was able to impart on the prospective prophets the spiritual tools they would need to be elevated to the degree of communion with the Divine necessary to receive true prophecy. The Second Temple didn't have those elements so we are no longer able to attain those levels of communion, although we were able to attain lower levels of communion that were prophetic in nature albeit not true prophecy. Rather than calling it prophecy, from then on we call it "Holy Spirit", meaning the Holy Spirit rests on a person (although this is obviously true of true prophecy as well). Within a few hundred years of the destruction of the Second Temple, we lost the ashes of the Red Heifer as well and from then on, we could no longer reach the degree of purity necessary for even that, so we're left with very, very low levels of Holy Spirit.

With that background, yes, the Second Temple was the focal point of worship, certainly the physical act. However, it was limited in it's capability to provide the spiritual counterpart to the physical act. According to some commentaries, that's what Daniel 9 is actually referring to. There'd be a trial period of 62 weeks without prophecy - the duration of the Second Temple - during which we're given the opportunity to rectify all our sins in order to bring about the Eternal Temple and the Messianic Age. The wars at the end of the Second Temple era would then have fulfilled the prophecies of the war of Gog and Magog and we would have moved directly into the Messianic Age. Unfortunately, the Second Temple era was marked with Hellenization and infighting and we lost that opportunity.

YoursTrue · Jun 19, 2019

Tumah said:
The understanding is that the idolatry wasn't just about the physical act of obeisance towards a rock. There was some element of communion with what we would consider a force of impurity that was the driving force behind the desire to worship the rock in the first place. Parallel to that, prophecy (with the exception of Moses) takes place when a prophet enters a heightened state of communion with G-d or is induced into such a state by G-d.
The First Temple was able to impart on the prospective prophets the spiritual tools they would need to be elevated to the degree of communion with the Divine necessary to receive true prophecy. The Second Temple didn't have those elements so we are no longer able to attain those levels of communion, although we were able to attain lower levels of communion that were prophetic in nature albeit not true prophecy. Rather than calling it prophecy, from then on we call it "Holy Spirit", meaning the Holy Spirit rests on a person (although this is obviously true of true prophecy as well). Within a few hundred years of the destruction of the Second Temple, we lost the ashes of the Red Heifer as well and from then on, we could no longer reach the degree of purity necessary for even that, so we're left with very, very low levels of Holy Spirit.

With that background, yes, the Second Temple was the focal point of worship, certainly the physical act. However, it was limited in it's capability to provide the spiritual counterpart to the physical act. According to some commentaries, that's what Daniel 9 is actually referring to. There'd be a trial period of 62 weeks without prophecy - the duration of the Second Temple - during which we're given the opportunity to rectify all our sins in order to bring about the Eternal Temple and the Messianic Age. The wars at the end of the Second Temple era would then have fulfilled the prophecies of the war of Gog and Magog and we would have moved directly into the Messianic Age. Unfortunately, the Second Temple era was marked with Hellenization and infighting and we lost that opportunity.

ok yes I understand to an extent about your understanding. I do have questions, however, and will hope to check the dates of the two temples. So to love and obey God Almighty is required? Because I wonder about what you think of the future, if you understand my comment and if I understand yours regarding both the destruction of the second temple and what you think about the next temple. Thank you for your response, it is interesting.

Tumah · Jun 19, 2019

YoursTrue said:
ok yes I understand to an extent about your understanding. I do have questions, however, and will hope to check the dates of the two temples. So to love and obey God Almighty is required?

To love G-d is commanded in Deut. 6:5. Obeying G-d is inherent in the concept of "commandment".

Because I wonder about what you think of the future, if you understand my comment and if I understand yours regarding both the destruction of the second temple and what you think about the next temple. Thank you for your response, it is interesting.

I'm not sure what you're asking here.

Unguru · Jun 19, 2019

I've always found Judaism fascinating but I've never learnt about it. However I like that you are proper monotheists, that is awesome!

Where is the best place to start with learning about your religion?

rosends · Jun 19, 2019

If you are looking online, try www.jewfaq.org

YoursTrue · Jun 20, 2019

Tumah said:
To love G-d is commanded in Deut. 6:5. Obeying G-d is inherent in the concept of "commandment".

I'm not sure what you're asking here.

Because IF the second temple was destroyed because of idol worship as you seem to imply practiced by God's covenant people, and which was total unacceptable to Him, how do you feel about a rebuilding of another temple? Does that depend upon the purity of worship by the Jews?

Tumah · Jun 20, 2019

YoursTrue said:
Because IF the second temple was destroyed because of idol worship as you seem to imply practiced by God's covenant people, and which was total unacceptable to Him

No, the First Temple was destroyed because of idolatry. The Second Temple wasn't destroyed because of idolatry, I actually gave completely different reasons for that in my previous post.

how do you feel about a rebuilding of another temple?

I'm Orthodox, so not only do I look forward to it, I pray for it multiple times daily all year round.

Does that depend upon the purity of worship by the Jews?

I'm not sure what "purity of worship" means.

YoursTrue · Jun 20, 2019

Tumah said:
No, the First Temple was destroyed because of idolatry. The Second Temple wasn't destroyed because of idolatry, I actually gave completely different reasons for that in my previous post.

I'm Orthodox, so not only do I look forward to it, I pray for it multiple times daily all year round.

I'm not sure what "purity of worship" means.

So you're saying the second temple was destroyed in the first century c.e. but had nothing to do with God's displeasure, if I misunderstood you, please do correct, thank you. In other words, was this God's decision to have the temple ransacked by the Romans?
Just to clarify, you said above about the second temple, "Unfortunately, the Second Temple era was marked with Hellenization and infighting and we lost that opportunity." So I guess you meant God had nothing or maybe something to do with that destruction. But thank you for your expressing your view on why you believe all Torah kind of stopped being written. When I say kind of I mean beyond the writings of Moses You did seem to say it was more or less after the destruction (was God pleased with the activity in relation to the first temple so He had it destroyed?) of the first temple. Maybe I misunderstood you, but thank you, I will keep learning.

Tumah · Jun 20, 2019

YoursTrue said:
So you're saying the second temple was destroyed in the first century c.e. but had nothing to do with God's displeasure, if I misunderstood you, please do correct, thank you. In other words, was this God's decision to have the temple ransacked by the Romans?

No, of course G-d was displease. There are other things besides idolatry that are sins for Jews...

Just to clarify, you said above about the second temple, "Unfortunately, the Second Temple era was marked with Hellenization and infighting and we lost that opportunity." So I guess you meant God had nothing or maybe something to do with that destruction.

Now, I see what wasn't clear. Hellenization resulted in the abandonment or partial abandonment of G-d's Law in favor of Greek culture.
Infighting is a transgression of the commandment to love one's fellow.
These are both sins that lead to the destruction of the Second Temple.

But thank you for your expressing your view on why you believe all Torah kind of stopped being written. When I say kind of I mean beyond the writings of Moses You did seem to say it was more or less after the destruction (was God pleased with the activity in relation to the first temple so He had it destroyed?) of the first temple. Maybe I misunderstood you, but thank you, I will keep learning.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure what your question in parenthesis is, but I have a feeling its related to a misunderstanding from what I said earlier and what I cleared up here. But your welcome.

Click to expand...

YoursTrue · Jun 22, 2019

Tumah said:
No, of course G-d was displease. There are other things besides idolatry that are sins for Jews...

Here is the point, or at least one of the points. Would you say that God was so displeased with the activities of the majority of the Jews that He had two temples destroyed?

Tumah · Jun 22, 2019

YoursTrue said:
Here is the point, or at least one of the points. Would you say that God was so displeased with the activities of the majority of the Jews that He had two temples destroyed?

That's what I've been saying this whole time.

YoursTrue · Jun 23, 2019

Tumah said:
That's what I've been saying this whole time.

So that's what I've been asking regarding your thoughts about prophecy. We were talking about the destruction of the Second Temple, its failure to have been rebuilt, Jews still mourning at the site of the destroyed temple in Jerusalem. It would be interesting, wouldn't it, to see what books,writings, prophecies regarded by Jews as God-breathed (inspired) to have come after the writings of Malachi, included in the Jewish canon. But, according to the Jewish religion and teachers, nothing else by men or God has been included in the sacred writings since Malachi's writings. How very interesting. And yet you, as a Jew, are still waiting for -- reform in the religion? Changes to be acceptable to God? Thanks for your answer. Of course, there was always the hope regarding Rabbi Schneerson, but he hasn't arisen from his tomb yet.

Tumah · Jun 23, 2019

YoursTrue said:
So that's what I've been asking regarding your thoughts about prophecy. We were talking about the destruction of the Second Temple, its failure to have been rebuilt, Jews still mourning at the site of the destroyed temple in Jerusalem. It would be interesting, wouldn't it, to see what books,writings, prophecies regarded by Jews as God-breathed (inspired) to have come after the writings of Malachi, included in the Jewish canon. But, according to the Jewish religion and teachers, nothing else by men or God has been included in the sacred writings since Malachi's writings. How very interesting. And yet you, as a Jew, are still waiting for -- reform in the religion? Changes to be acceptable to God? Thanks for your answer.

Not reform of the religion, the religion is fine. We're waiting for the rectification of the sins that keep us in exile: more unity, return to Jewish Law, etc.

With regards to the continuation of prophecy, it would be nice, but I don't really see it as necessary. We already have all the information. We know what we're supposed to do be doing. We know what we're supposed to expect, to a large extent. It's just a question of getting enough people to do it. That's not something that our prophets have historically been successful with anyway. So although it would be nice to have prophets, especially as they represent that we have a certain degree of closeness with G-d, in terms of their usefulness to the religion as a whole, there's not really much to be gained anymore. And of course, the proof is in the pudding as G-d also stopped the chain pf prophecy after that time period.

Of course, there was always the hope regarding Rabbi Schneerson, but he hasn't arisen from his tomb yet.

I think you are overplaying by far, the number of Jews who believed him to be the Messiah. Rabbi Schneerson was the Grand Rabbi of one Hassidic sect among many Hassidic sects. That sect may be one of the largest or perhaps even the largest of all Hassidic sects, but it does not make up the majority of Hassidim at all. And Hassidism is only of group among Ultra-Orthodox which is one group among Orthodox. So overall, we're talking about a fairly small percentage who believed him to be the Messiah. Even within his sect, not all believed him to be the Messiah and that is even more true after he died, as dying is one of the ways you get out of the Messiah candidacy list.

YoursTrue · Jun 24, 2019

Tumah said:
Not reform of the religion, the religion is fine. We're waiting for the rectification of the sins that keep us in exile: more unity, return to Jewish Law, etc.

With regards to the continuation of prophecy, it would be nice, but I don't really see it as necessary. We already have all the information. We know what we're supposed to do be doing. We know what we're supposed to expect, to a large extent. It's just a question of getting enough people to do it. That's not something that our prophets have historically been successful with anyway. So although it would be nice to have prophets, especially as they represent that we have a certain degree of closeness with G-d, in terms of their usefulness to the religion as a whole, there's not really much to be gained anymore. And of course, the proof is in the pudding as G-d also stopped the chain pf prophecy after that time period.

I think you are overplaying by far, the number of Jews who believed him to be the Messiah. Rabbi Schneerson was the Grand Rabbi of one Hassidic sect among many Hassidic sects. That sect may be one of the largest or perhaps even the largest of all Hassidic sects, but it does not make up the majority of Hassidim at all. And Hassidism is only of group among Ultra-Orthodox which is one group among Orthodox. So overall, we're talking about a fairly small percentage who believed him to be the Messiah. Even within his sect, not all believed him to be the Messiah and that is even more true after he died, as dying is one of the ways you get out of the Messiah candidacy list.

Would you know if there are still guards by his tomb just in case he comes back to life from the grave?

YoursTrue · Jun 24, 2019

Tumah said:
Not reform of the religion, the religion is fine. We're waiting for the rectification of the sins that keep us in exile: more unity, return to Jewish Law, etc.

With regards to the continuation of prophecy, it would be nice, but I don't really see it as necessary. We already have all the information. We know what we're supposed to do be doing. We know what we're supposed to expect, to a large extent. It's just a question of getting enough people to do it. That's not something that our prophets have historically been successful with anyway. ....

So assuming that unity of ... ? what?... is necessary for -- (what?) as you said above, that you as Jews are waiting for the rectification of the sins that keep you in exile, etc., then what will happen if that ever happens (rectification of sins that keep you in exile).

YoursTrue · Jun 24, 2019

Tumah said:
Not reform of the religion, the religion is fine. We're waiting for the rectification of the sins that keep us in exile: more unity, return to Jewish Law, etc.

With regards to the continuation of prophecy, it would be nice, but I don't really see it as necessary. We already have all the information. We know what we're supposed to do be doing. We know what we're supposed to expect, to a large extent. It's just a question of getting enough people to do it. That's not something that our prophets have historically been successful with anyway. So although it would be nice to have prophets, especially as they represent that we have a certain degree of closeness with G-d, in terms of their usefulness to the religion as a whole, there's not really much to be gained anymore. And of course, the proof is in the pudding as G-d also stopped the chain pf prophecy after that time period.

I think you are overplaying by far, the number of Jews who believed him to be the Messiah. Rabbi Schneerson was the Grand Rabbi of one Hassidic sect among many Hassidic sects. That sect may be one of the largest or perhaps even the largest of all Hassidic sects, but it does not make up the majority of Hassidim at all. And Hassidism is only of group among Ultra-Orthodox which is one group among Orthodox. So overall, we're talking about a fairly small percentage who believed him to be the Messiah. Even within his sect, not all believed him to be the Messiah and that is even more true after he died, as dying is one of the ways you get out of the Messiah candidacy list.

Yeah, I remember years ago when he was alive, passing a billboard in New York State with the number, if I recall, 1-800-MOSHIACH. Connecting to R. Schneerson's headquarters. But then he died. So they were not evidently looking for the right person?

Tumah · Jun 24, 2019

YoursTrue said:
Would you know if there are still guards by his tomb just in case he comes back to life from the grave?

I don't know if there are guards as I've never been there. I have heard there's a fax machine though. There are still Hassidim of his who think he'll come back to life to be the Messiah and even some who think he never died...
But as I was saying earlier, overall, they represent a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the Orthodox Jewish world.

YoursTrue said:
Yeah, I remember years ago when he was alive, passing a billboard in New York State with the number, if I recall, 1-800-MOSHIACH. Connecting to R. Schneerson's headquarters. But then he died. So they were not evidently looking for the right person?

No, not necessarily. We believe that every generation has someone who is capable of being the Messiah, so that as soon as we are worthy, he can immediately start the process. Rabbi Schneerson may have been one of these 'potential Messiah's'. There's just no way to know now.

YoursTrue said:
So assuming that unity of ... ? what?... is necessary for -- (what?) as you said above, that you as Jews are waiting for the rectification of the sins that keep you in exile, etc., then what will happen if that ever happens (rectification of sins that keep you in exile).

Unity of the nation is necessary for the Redemption. What will happen is the Messianic Age, when all the Messianic prophecies come to fruition: in-gathering of the all the exiled to Israel, Messiah is appointed king, world peace, etc.

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