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The New Man

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
You didn't explain what Jesus meant by becoming "born again", and yes there is both an inner working (I wouldn't exactly call it conversion) and an outward mandate (The Kingdom of God or New Creation). I think it would better if you gave as a lengthy explanation as to what the Christian concept of the New Man and the New Creation as much as you did on explaining what secular philosophers and politicians meant by it.

2 Corinthians 5:17-20 Ephesians 2:16 Colossians 1:20-21

A new spirit and new heart in is the promise of a new covenant going back to Jeremiah 32:40 or Ezekiel chapters 36, 37
It was a promise long in coming

Perhaps you see a hope for that in other places because there is some heart cry for help and mercy to change and a need to change that is felt
 

usfan

Well-Known Member
You didn't explain what Jesus meant by becoming "born again", and yes there is both an inner working (I wouldn't exactly call it conversion) and an outward mandate (The Kingdom of God or New Creation). I think it would better if you gave as a lengthy explanation as to what the Christian concept of the New Man and the New Creation as much as you did on explaining what secular philosophers and politicians meant by it.

2 Corinthians 5:17-20 Ephesians 2:16 Colossians 1:20-21
It is much easier to describe and explain the material. The spiritual is abstract, and requires 'ears to hear', as the bible puts it. A lengthy exposition on the rebirth of the spirit of man would likely be reduced to fodder for hecklers..

I'm sure you wouldn't want that... ;)
 

The Reverend Bob

Fart Machine and Beastmaster
It is much easier to describe and explain the material. The spiritual is abstract, and requires 'ears to hear', as the bible puts it. A lengthy exposition on the rebirth of the spirit of man would likely be reduced to fodder for hecklers..

I'm sure you wouldn't want that... ;)
Let them heckle. Put the focus on Christ not the world. Jesus and Paul got heckled, laughed at and worse.
 

usfan

Well-Known Member
Let them heckle. Put the focus on Christ not the world. Jesus and Paul got heckled, laughed at and worse.
Oh, yes.. they do, and will. It is to be expected. :D

But the HUMAN engineered 'new man', was the topic of this thread, and the spiritualized one was just mentioned for contrast.

That said, a deep analysis of the spiritual transaction upon Christian rebirth is a fascinating study, and is quite fulfilling food for thought.
 

The Reverend Bob

Fart Machine and Beastmaster
But the HUMAN engineered 'new man', was the topic of this thread, and the spiritualized one was just mentioned for contrast.
But why do you want to focus on the world and their schemes? Seems to me like they are doomed to failure as is par for the course when you should consider the world as a dead thing and focus on something far far better. We already know that whatever plans they make, it is not going to pan out. We have seen this over and over again. The world just continues to flog a dead horse, trying to bring it to life. Move on from it, it is not a subject worthy of you.

Galatians 6:14 Luke 9:60
 

usfan

Well-Known Member
There seems to be a constant, universal 'discontent', for the nature of man, for all of human history.

One could argue that this discontent is the 'cause' of religions, beliefs, speculations, philosophies, etc. The common factor of shamen, gurus, priests, holy men, witch doctors, and therapists shows this to be something 'felt' by man from the dawn of creation.

Fear, angst, uneasiness.. something makes us believe and feel that humanity has a lack. Man is broken, and needs to be fixed.

Marxism, national socialism, and eugenics believed man can be fixed by helping evolution weed out the undesirable traits. But this put fallible, imperfect men in charge of the weedeaters, and the end results were not as promised.

Why do we need, or want, a 'new man?' Why the dissatisfaction and criticism of the natural, common human being? Is man broken? Does he need a 'fix?'
 

The Reverend Bob

Fart Machine and Beastmaster
Why do we need, or want, a 'new man?' Why the dissatisfaction and criticism of the natural, common human being? Is man broken? Does he need a 'fix?'
Because man is alienated. Now the questions are, what caused this alienation and what is man alienated from.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Why do we need, or want, a 'new man?' Why the dissatisfaction and criticism of the natural, common human being? Is man broken? Does he need a 'fix?'

Given the state of the world, to me the answer is clear - the New Man is needed. Sri Aurobindo expressed very well in a poem the essence of the New Man, not a being made to fit a dictator's dream, but rather...

The Omnipotent's Flaming Pioneers

I saw the Omnipotent's flaming pioneers
Over the heavenly verge which turns towards life
Come crowding down the amber stairs of birth;
Forerunners of a divine multitude,
Out of the paths of the morning star they came
Into the little room of mortal life.
I saw them cross the twilight of an age,
The sun-eyed children of a marvellous dawn,
The great creators with wide brows of calm,
The massive barrier-breakers of the world
And wrestlers with destiny in her lists of will,
The labourers in the quarries of the gods,
The messengers of the Incommunicable,
The architects of immortality.
Into the fallen human sphere they came,
Faces that wore the Immortal's glory still,
Voices that communed still with the thoughts of God,
Bodies made beautiful by the spirit's light,
Carrying the magic word, the mystic fire,
Carrying the Dionysian cup of joy,
Approaching eyes of a diviner man,
Lips chanting an unknown anthem of the soul,
Feet echoing in the corridors of Time.
High priests of wisdom, sweetness, might and bliss,
Discoverers of beauty's sunlit ways
And swimmers of Love's laughing fiery floods
And dancers within rapture's golden doors,
Their tread one day shall change the suffering earth
And justify the light on Nature's face.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Many ideologies rely on the concept of a 'New Man.' The flaws in the old man.. corruption, greed, & cruelty.. are repaired in the New Man. Marx counted on it. Lenin promoted it. Che Guevara preached it. Many more have practiced it.

With all utopias, a new man is crucial to it's success & founding. Marx believed a scientific evolution was possible with man. He felt that man could become altruistic, & live for the common good, if the selfish negatives of religion & capitalism were ended. Plenty of followers tried to implement his ideals.

You must, therefore, confess that by "individual" you mean no other person than the bourgeois, than the middle-class owner of property. This person must indeed, be swept out of the way, and made impossible. ~Karl Marx

Lenin, Stalin, Mao, & many others literally tried to 'sweep the bourgeois out of the way.' But no matter how many imperfect men they killed, who did not measure up to the party standards, every generation made more of the same. They were not evolving into the new Soviet Man.

Seventy years ago communists easily (and, as it turned out, for a long time) seized power in Russia. Without hesitation they undertook to build a new society, hitherto unprecedented in the history of mankind, and announced the construction of Communism throughout the whole world to be their final goal.
In this society there was to be no private property, it was to be a-religious: denying God, denying the existence of the immortal soul and recognizing only the material aspect of life as real. The society was to be free of ethnic affiliations, and communists were to have unlimited power over that society.
Unprecedented methods were used to build this unprecedented society. It was decided to create a new man. This man was to be free from ethnic affiliations, see no sense in private property, be always ready to sacrifice himself for the benefit of society, have no doubts that he originated from an ape or something like it (certainly from a beast) and that nothing will remain of him after his death. In other words, he was to be a one-hundred percent materialist and atheist and must know that the meaning of life is in the person's usefulness to society and the supreme goal is in a better, wealthy and happy life of future generations. Recognizing this, he would necessarily be happy.
It was obvious to initiators of the new society and creators of the new man that several existing classes of people would delay the implementation of this task. So, it was decided to destroy millions of these people "as a class ," i.e., to kill them. To "destroy as a class" is not just a reckless cynical phrase; in fact, it is a guide to practical action. This was done in Russia, and in this way began construction of the new society in every country as soon as the communists seized power. ~Sergei Khodorovich, 1987

Russia worked on a 'New Soviet Man' for over 70 years. Did they make one? Indeed. But it was not as intended. Instead of being altruistic & sacrificing for the whole, they were selfish & lazy, stealing from work & unproductive.

To build communism it is necessary, simultaneous with the new material foundations, to build the new man and woman. ~Che Guevara

Revolutionaries will come who will sing the song of the new man and woman in the true voice of the people.
A new generation is being born. The party is a vanguard organization. It is made up of the best workers, who are proposed for membership by their fellow workers. It is a minority, but it has great authority because of the quality of its cadres. Our aspiration is for the party to become a mass party, but only when the masses have reached the level of the vanguard, that is, when they are educated for communism. ~Che Guevara

Che was very committed to the 'New Man'. He felt the loose morals in cuba were the fault of capitalism, & sought to purge that from the people. He eliminated a lot of revolutionaries in his quest for this 'new man'.

Not an atom remains of the New Man that Che Guevara dreamed of. Almost all Cubans steal whatever they can at work, from a straw to a piece of paper. When someone begins a new job, he is not interested in how much his salary will be, only in how much he can steal...
No one remembers the New Man, nor the stupidities advocated by social engineers like Che Guevara. The supposed New Men are in the lines outside the Spanish Consulate or the U.S. Special Interests Section, crazy about leaving.~Ivan Garcia

And in Cambodia, under Khmer Rouge, an estimated 3 million people died under forced relocation & purging of the 'corrupt man'. In a nation of 7 million, nearly half died. What did the social engineers think of that?

"As long as we have one million left, that will be enough to make the new man." ~Ieng Sary, foreign minister under Khmer Rouge


Even Hitler wanted to breed a 'master race' that would be perfect & communally altruistic, sacrificing themselves for the reich.

National socialism is the determination to create a new man. There will no longer exist anyindividual arbitrary will, nor realms in which the individual belongs to himself. The time of happiness as a private matter is over. ~Adolf Hitler


But the more man is told he must change, or is pushed to evolve, the more he stays the same.
This is the problem with ideologies dependent on a 'new man'. They do not work with real man. They do not take into account the realities of humanity. They are fantasy imaginations of humanity, with no basis in reality.

The savior who wants to turn men into angels is as much a hater of human nature as the totalitarian despot who wants to turn them into puppets. ~Eric Hoffer

Any form of governance which depends on the entire population of a country to be completely benevolent and altruistic is bound to fail.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
The savior who wants to turn men into angels is as much a hater of human nature as the totalitarian despot who wants to turn them into puppets. ~Eric Hoffer

What about the evangelical christian?
 
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