Infallibility

TransmutingSoul · Jun 18, 2019

siti said:
But the point is that attempting to do it in a way prescribed by an ancient man who reportedly imagined himself to have been in touch with God centuries ago is counterproductive. Human society has moved on in giant leaps since the mid-19th century - you may have noticed - what was needed then is not a good match for what is needed now...and that gap is only going to get wider as time and humanity 'progresses'.

I was editing the post to add when I saw this.

The key is a world embracing vision, that is applicable to this day. How to find that world embracing vision is still applicable and is the Message of Baha'u'llah.

"..Every man of insight will, in this day, readily admit that the counsels which the Pen of this wronged One hath revealed constitute the supreme animating power for the advancement of the world and the exaltation of its peoples. Arise, O people, and, by the power of God’s might, resolve to gain the victory over your own selves, that haply the whole earth may be freed and sanctified from its servitude to the gods of its idle fancies—gods that have inflicted such loss upon, and are responsible for the misery of, their wretched worshipers. These idols form the obstacle that impedeth man in his efforts to advance in the path of perfection. We cherish the hope that the Hand of Divine power may lend its assistance to mankind, and deliver it from its state of grievous abasement."

That is some challenge and note the ending to that quote.

Regards Tony

siti · Jun 18, 2019

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
That is some challenge.

Not really - it doesn't say anything of substance at all...its just religious rigmarole translated into a form of English language that was already out of date before Baha'u'llah scratched a single Persian word on a single tablet.

TransmutingSoul · Jun 18, 2019

siti said:
Not really - it doesn't say anything of substance at all...its just religious rigmarole translated into a form of English language that was already out of date before Baha'u'llah scratched a single Persian word on a single tablet.

That is your choice and always will be.

Meanwhile as a Baha'i I see that the safety and prosperity of your grandchildren can and will be brought about by each of us eventually submiting to what God has asked us to do.

I wish you well and safe in the turmoil that will come, the longer the elixer is ignored the greater the sickness humanity has to recover from, amputations may result.

Regards Tony

TransmutingSoul · Jun 18, 2019

Vinayaka said:
Perhaps the Pope didn't response because he didn't consider the source worthy of a response. Tons of people write to the Pope and get no response. It's no big deal. Of course everything Baha'i is a huge deal to Baha'i. Baha'ullah taking a walk would be this huge deal. You're actually suggesting that the Baha'i faith has more impact on the world than the Catholic Church?

Yes that is the way I see it now. The prohecy in the Bible says all things are made new, that there is a new heaven and a new earth.

In many Tables God has given Baha'u'llah all power over what will unfold in this material world and Shoghi Effendi summed up the Messages that Baha'u'llah sent by obsercing that, "The colossal events that have heralded the dissolution of so many kingdoms and empires have almost synchronized with the crumbling of the seemingly inviolable strongholds of religious orthodoxy. That same process which, swiftly and tragically, sealed the doom of kings and emperors, and extinguished their dynasties, has operated in the case of the ecclesiastical leaders of both Christianity and Islám, damaging their prestige, and, in some cases, overthrowing their highest institutions. “Power hath been seized” indeed from both “kings and ecclesiastics.”

It is Baha'u'llah that has siezed that power and it has now been given to each of us, to find within our own selves. The evidence that people are becoming less influenced by religious leaders, is now very apparent.

Regards Tony

siti · Jun 18, 2019

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
amputations may result

Oh I think it might be worse than that! I can see my grandchildren or great-grandchildren seeing the human population of the earth cut in half - or even worse - if we don't get our act together - and I don't see any sign of that. People still seem to think that faith can heal everything when in fact there is not one single case of an amputated limb - even a digit - growing back as a result of faith. So please, spare me the snake oil cure-all...show me evidence of infallibility - not baseless claims to it.

TransmutingSoul · Jun 18, 2019

siti said:
Oh I think it might be worse than that! I can see my grandchildren or great-grandchildren seeing the human population of the earth cut in half - or even worse - if we don't get our act together - and I don't see any sign of that. People still seem to think that faith can heal everything when in fact there is not one single case of an amputated limb - even a digit - growing back as a result of faith. So please, spare me the snake oil cure-all...show me evidence of infallibility - not baseless claims to it.

The Biblical Prophecy of 1/3 of mankind being cut off, is still very much applicable (Revelation 9:18). Baha'u'llah has also said that no Baha'i is exempt from what will happen, the success of the Faith would depend upon our commitment to spread it globally.

Regards Tony

paarsurrey · Jun 18, 2019

siti said:
Not really - it doesn't say anything of substance at all...its just religious rigmarole translated into a form of English language that was already out of date before Baha'u'llah scratched a single Persian word on a single tablet.

Bahaullah has written too much, even his followers have not read all of his writings. He took simple concepts and made them complicated, unnecessarily. His followers imply things from his writings, which as I understand, are not there in his writing in a straightforward and unequivocal manner.
What English word ,one thinks, best describes a person with such qualities?

Regards

TransmutingSoul · Jun 18, 2019

paarsurrey said:
Bahaullah has written too much, even his followers have not read all of his writings. He took simple concepts and made them complicated, unnecessarily. His followers imply things from his writings, which as I understand, are not there in his writing in a straightforward and unequivocal manner.
What English word ,one thinks, best describes a person with such qualities?

Regards

For Baha'u'llah "Messenger".

It is God that tests His seravnts.

For us 'Gnat'.

Regards Tony

Vinayaka · Jun 19, 2019

paarsurrey said:
What English word ,one thinks, best describes a person with such qualities?

Regards

A politician. Many speech writers are rather capable of writing a 'positive' speech that says nothing. Usually a politician's words are understandable, not the message.

metis · Jun 19, 2019

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
This prophecy was fulfilled with this Pope and the church also lost its long held influence.

Since the CC is over 1 billion strong, I don't think I can agree that the papacy has lost his influence.

Also, in the link I provided, one should note that speaking ex cathedra (infallibility) is quite rare and not done by the pope alone.

However, such a power I still question.

metis · Jun 19, 2019

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
The Biblical Prophecy of 1/3 of mankind being cut off, is still very much applicable (Revelation 9:18). Baha'u'llah has also said that no Baha'i is exempt from what will happen, the success of the Faith would depend upon our commitment to spread it globally.

Regards Tony

Over my 74 years I have heard a great many prophecies, especially dealing with the end of times, and yet we're still here.

Therefore, when the end will come I don't lose any sleep over.

Audie · Jun 19, 2019

siti said:
Not really - it doesn't say anything of substance at all...its just religious rigmarole translated into a form of English language that was already out of date before Baha'u'llah scratched a single Persian word on a single tablet.

Seems a person must be very very needy to be
able to believe that there is something "inspired
of god" about such writing.

Provide a market, and scores of good writers
could crank out better holy books by the carload.

Audie · Jun 19, 2019

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
I was editing the post to add when I saw this.

The key is a world embracing vision, that is applicable to this day. How to find that world embracing vision is still applicable and is the Message of Baha'u'llah.

"..Every man of insight will, in this day, readily admit that the counsels which the Pen of this wronged One hath revealed constitute the supreme animating power for the advancement of the world and the exaltation of its peoples. Arise, O people, and, by the power of God’s might, resolve to gain the victory over your own selves, that haply the whole earth may be freed and sanctified from its servitude to the gods of its idle fancies—gods that have inflicted such loss upon, and are responsible for the misery of, their wretched worshipers. These idols form the obstacle that impedeth man in his efforts to advance in the path of perfection. We cherish the hope that the Hand of Divine power may lend its assistance to mankind, and deliver it from its state of grievous abasement."

That is some challenge and note the ending to that quote.

Regards Tony

The challenge is to read more than three lines
and not puke.

TransmutingSoul · Jun 19, 2019

metis said:
Since the CC is over 1 billion strong, I don't think I can agree that the papacy has lost his influence.

Also, in the link I provided, one should note that speaking ex cathedra (infallibility) is quite rare and not done by the pope alone.

However, such a power I still question.

Wheras the Infallibility of Baha'u'llah and His Covenant is not questioned by a Baha'i, it is a mighty covernant and it is in Scripture, Wheras the Pope made his up and it is these issues that split the church to start with.

If we read what happened to the loss of power of the Catholic Church in the 1800's, read what happened to that Pope that claimed the doctrine of infalability in the time of Baha'u'llah, then the power of Baha'u'llah's advice can be seen to have unfolded. Napoleon also had letters from Baha'u'llah.

Pope Pius IX - Wikipedia

Italian unification - Wikipedia

The Pope is but a man like us and can not help guide humanity to a lasting peace, without accepting that Christ has returned and I would suggest many of the billion followers no longer take each word that the Pope offers as good as gospel. I would also suggest many have lost a great deal of confidence in the church and the disillusionment will only grow.

I wish you all the best and always happy.

Regards Tony

TransmutingSoul · Jun 19, 2019

metis said:
Over my 74 years I have heard a great many prophecies, especially dealing with the end of times, and yet we're still here.

Therefore, when the end will come I don't lose any sleep over.

That is because the end times is not the end of the Material world. It is the end of an age of the previous Messenger of God and a new age of a New Messenger.

We live in the dawn of a new day, where the darkness is yet to fully dissipate. This day is the Great and Dreadful 'Day of the Lord'.

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call"

It is the day when one can discover the thief has come in the night.

Regards Tony

TransmutingSoul · Jun 19, 2019

Audie said:
Provide a market, and scores of good writers
could crank out better holy books by the carload.

Then produce those works, the Quran also has that challenge.

Regards Tony

paarsurrey · Jun 19, 2019

Vinayaka said:
A politician. Many speech writers are rather capable of writing a 'positive' speech that says nothing. Usually a politician's words are understandable, not the message.

Does one mean that Bahaullah was playing politics behind the pretext of a new World-view?
Right, please?

Regards

TransmutingSoul · Jun 19, 2019

paarsurrey said:
Does one mean that Bahaullah was playing politics behind the pretext of a new World-view?
Right, please?

Regards

That is what you are trying to do paarsurry.

Baha'u'llah was clear. He is the infallible Messenger for this day. Allah doeth as He Willeth.

Regards Tony

Vinayaka · Jun 20, 2019

paarsurrey said:
Does one mean that Bahaullah was playing politics behind the pretext of a new World-view?
Right, please?

Regards

No, that's not what I meant. I was just referring to the style of language where little is said in a long speech. But yes, he obviously tried to influence politicians, and that influence is drastically exaggerated.

metis · Jun 20, 2019

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Wheras the Infallibility of Baha'u'llah and His Covenant is not questioned by a Baha'i, it is a mighty covernant and it is in Scripture, Wheras the Pope made his up and it is these issues that split the church to start with.

So, if it's with the Baha', it's all fine & dandy; but if it's with the Catholics, no deal. Seems to be quite a double-standard.

Infallibility

Veteran Member

Well-Known Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Well-Known Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

devotee

aged ecumenical anthropologist

aged ecumenical anthropologist

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

devotee

aged ecumenical anthropologist