Infallibility

Trailblazer said:

No, it is the same Divine Elixir that is sent in every age, in a new bottle.

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And here's a picture of it

siti said:

And here's a picture of it

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I had a feeling there would be retribution for that passage,
and that it would not be DIVINE RETRIBUTION.

siti said:

And here's a picture of it

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A lot of what Baha'u'llah has offered is still waiting for humanity to come of age;

194. We have appointed two signs for the coming of age of the human race;

"...The first sign of the coming of age of humanity referred to in the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh is the emergence of a science which is described as that "divine philosophy" which will include the discovery of a radical approach to the transmutation of elements. This is an indication of the splendours of the future stupendous expansion of knowledge.
Concerning the "second" sign which Bahá'u'lláh indicates to have been revealed in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Shoghi Effendi states that Bahá'u'lláh, "...in His Most Holy Book, has enjoined the selection of a single language and the adoption of a common script for all on earth to use, an injunction which, when carried out, would, as He Himself affirms in that Book, be one of the signs of the `coming of age of the human race'".

This is what Baha'u'llah advised re the language;

"..O members of parliaments throughout the world! Select ye a single language for the use of all on earth, and adopt ye likewise a common script. God, verily, maketh plain for you that which shall profit you and enable you to be independent of others. He, of a truth, is the Most Bountiful, the All-Knowing, the All-Informed. This will be the cause of unity, could ye but comprehend it, and the greatest instrument for promoting harmony and civilization, would that ye might understand! We have appointed two signs for the coming of age of the human race: the first, which is the most firm foundation, We have set down in other of Our Tablets, while the second hath been revealed in this wondrous Book...."

Notice that it will be a radical change in science and it will be a time when a universal language is adopted and most wonderfully, it will be the cause of unity.

So it will be easy in a time to come, that will happen or it will not.

Regards Tony

@Tony Bristow-Stagg - why do you keep tagging my posts "optimistic"?

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

The first sign of the coming of age of humanity referred to in the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh is the emergence of a science which is described as that "divine philosophy" which will include the discovery of a radical approach to the transmutation of elements.

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He seems a bit fixated on this transmutation of elements thing doesn't he?

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

O members of parliaments throughout the world! Select ye a single language for the use of all on earth, and adopt ye likewise a common script.

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Well they tried that and it didn't catch on - I wouldn't be holding my breath on that one if I were you.

siti said:

@Tony Bristow-Stagg - why do you keep tagging my posts "optimistic"?

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I see that someone that once had faith, that to now discount any possibly that the greatest advice that has ever been given to humanity as a whole, in favour of ones own view, is a very optomistic choice in life.

If you are not happy for me to do that, then I will not.

But I will still see it as very optomistic.

Regards Tony

siti said:

He seems a bit fixated on this transmutation of elements thing doesn't he?

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Baha'u'llah has said that is a piece of cake compared to transforming a heart.

But as His God given Message was to change hearts, He took on the greatest challenge, with a complete submission to God's will.

As we have said, the first to live the Message is the Messenger, it is one of the greatest proofs that they are truthful.

Regards Tony

siti said:

Well they tried that and it didn't catch on - I wouldn't be holding my breath on that one if I were you.

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It will come around again. With that, there is no doubt at all.

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

I see that someone that once had faith, that to now discount any possibly that the greatest advice that has ever been given to humanity as a whole, in favour of ones own view, is a very optomistic choice in life.

If you are not happy for me to do that, then I will not.

But I will still see it as very optomistic.

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Its not that I don't like it - its fine for anyone to assess any of my posts as they see it - no problem at all with that. I just didn't understand what you meant since I did not think I had posted anything that seemed to me to be 'optimistic'. Anyway, its all good.

FWIW though, I don't see my viewpoint as 'optimistic' (i.e. the belief that things will get better) so much as 'melioristic' (i.e. the belief that things can get better, but only by our own efforts)...but mostly I think I'm rather 'pessimistic' - especially about the future of humankind...it seems to me it will be much worse for my grandchildren than it was for our generation - and I hope against hope that it will get better. But I certainly don't expect any miraculous divine interventions - its up to us and we're making a lousy job of it - and, often, excusing ourselves in the name of religion. In that sense, not only do I reject the religious notion of 'infallibility' - but I actually hold the prophets responsible for keeping the masses in unrealistic expectation instead of prompting them to meaningful action in defense of the future of humanity and the habitat we share with the rest of the living things that share our home. Even if we do - as promised - succeed in turning base metals into precious gold - we'll almost certainly waste it on fripperies and continue with mindless abandon to destroy our own home and imagine that there's another one awaiting us as a reward for believing the right things even though we persist in doing all the wrong things.

As far as I can tell, Baha'u'llah has little, if anything, meaningful to say about any of that and yet purports to have prescribed the panacea for all the ills of the world with his divinely inspired pen.

Baha'u'llah's is not, it seems to me, an infallible revelation for a new age - its more like the last of a dying breed of imagined supernatural revelations that humanity will - if it knows what's good for itself - dispense with altogether before too long in favour of a genuinely workable solution 'revealed' by nature and humanity's deeper understanding of its inextricable embedding therein. That, in itself, will not be 'infallible' either because nature is a fickle teacher - but if it follows nature's pattern, it will, at least, evolve as needs change...and that is what religion based on 'infallible' revelations cannot do - and why it always fails.

siti said:

Its not that I don't like it - its fine for anyone to assess any of my posts as they see it - no problem at all with that. I just didn't understand what you meant since I did not think I had posted anything that seemed to me to be 'optimistic'. Anyway, its all good.

FWIW though, I don't see my viewpoint as 'optimistic' (i.e. the belief that things will get better) so much as 'melioristic' (i.e. the belief that things can get better, but only by our own efforts)...but mostly I think I'm rather 'pessimistic' - especially about the future of humankind...it seems to me it will be much worse for my grandchildren than it was for our generation - and I hope against hope that it will get better. But I certainly don't expect any miraculous divine interventions - its up to us and we're making a lousy job of it - and, often, excusing ourselves in the name of religion. In that sense, not only do I reject the religious notion of 'infallibility' - but I actually hold the prophets responsible for keeping the masses in unrealistic expectation instead of prompting them to meaningful action in defense of the future of humanity and the habitat we share with the rest of the living things that share our home. Even if we do - as promised - succeed in turning base metals into precious gold - we'll almost certainly waste it on fripperies and continue with mindless abandon to destroy our own home and imagine that there's another one awaiting us as a reward for believing the right things even though we persist in doing all the wrong things.

As far as I can tell, Baha'u'llah has little, if anything, meaningful to say about any of that and yet purports to have prescribed the panacea for all the ills of the world with his divinely inspired pen.

Baha'u'llah's is not, it seems to me, an infallible revelation for a new age - its more like the last of a dying breed of imagined supernatural revelations that humanity will - if it knows what's good for itself - dispense with altogether before too long in favour of a genuinely workable solution 'revealed' by nature and humanity's deeper understanding of its embedding therein. That, in itself, will not be 'infallible' either because nature is not infallible - but if it follows nature's pattern, it will evolve as needs change...and that is what religion based on 'infallible' revelations cannot do.

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I agree with a lot of what you said, except the "Baha'u'llah's is not" part... but I can understand why you think that.

You said you hold the prophets responsible for keeping the masses in unrealistic expectation instead of prompting them to meaningful action in defense of the future of humanity and the habitat we share with the rest of the living things that share our home.

Unrealistic expectation of what? I do not expect anyone else but humans to do anything.

siti said:

FWIW though, I don't see my viewpoint as 'optimistic' (i.e. the belief that things will get better) so much as 'melioristic' (i.e. the belief that things can get better, but only by our own efforts)...but mostly I think I'm rather 'pessimistic' - especially about the future of humankind...it seems to me it will be much worse for my grandchildren than it was for our generation - and I hope against hope that it will get better. But I certainly don't expect any miraculous divine interventions - its up to us and we're making a lousy job of it - and, often, excusing ourselves in the name of religion. In that sense, not only do I reject the religious notion of 'infallibility' - but I actually hold the prophets responsible for keeping the masses in unrealistic expectation instead of prompting them to meaningful action in defense of the future of humanity and the habitat we share with the rest of the living things that share our home. Even if we do - as promised - succeed in turning base metals into precious gold - we'll almost certainly waste it on fripperies and continue with mindless abandon to destroy our own home and imagine that there's another one awaiting us as a reward for believing the right things even though we persist in doing all the wrong things.

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It is us that has to inject and live the given elixir. God does not do it for us and never has, but God knows the future and warns us of what our neglect of Gods Given Message will produce.

Regards Tony

Windwalker said:

shakes head back. Obviously, you aren't interesting in thinking about these things. Yet, you feel a need to display this for some reason?

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I was just pointing out the use of negatively charged descriptors, by which one can demean their ideological enemies.

Does that offend you?

Why do you feel the need to project opon my desires, thinking, and motives? Does that refute my point, somehow?

usfan said:

I was just pointing out the use of negatively charged descriptors, by which one can demean their ideological enemies.

Does that offend you?

Why do you feel the need to project opon my desires, thinking, and motives? Does that refute my point, somehow?

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What offends me is your behaviors. On to ignore you go.

Windwalker said:

What offends me is your behaviors. On to ignore you go.

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My behaviors?

ROFL!!

Any defense of Christianity, or rebutting false narratives is 'bad behavior!!'

lol!



Really, i won't mind the ignore..

siti said:

and I hope against hope that it will get better. But I certainly don't expect any miraculous divine interventions - its up to us and we're making a lousy job of it

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siti said:

Baha'u'llah's is not, it seems to me, an infallible revelation for a new age - its more like the last of a dying breed of imagined supernatural revelations that humanity will - if it knows what's good for itself - dispense with altogether before too long in favour of a genuinely workable solution 'revealed' by nature and humanity's deeper understanding of its inextricable embedding therein.

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I was praying this morning when I thought of this post and your concern for the future of your grandchildren.

Then I thought that you said that you hope it gets better, when the offer is on the table by Baha'u'llah as to how to make it better. All the while the Baha'i do implement and practice a unity in diversity, in a peaceful way on a global scale and in that way offer the model to the world.

Thus the reality is and the question can be asked, 'do you really hope it does get better'. I ask that, because if the Message of Baha'u'llah contains the way forward for Humanity, and if one reallly wanted peace and security for their grandchildren, would they not at least pursue in some detail as to what needs to be done?

I can ask what other way will produce a unity in diversity of all Faiths and Cultures like practiced already by Baha'i? What vision is more embracing than that of the oneness of mankind, that vision can be had by every person, even by one that does not believe in God. What vision is greater for those that worship a creator, that the source of that worship is inspired by and shared by all Faiths, which the aim is to foster a unity of the human race, by gaining a knowledge of the reality of ones own self?

There will be no other force found that can make this happen, other than Faith in God, a Faith practiced as it should be, in the Love of all over preference to self.

I wish you always well and happy @siti as I do to all on RF, and the entire human race. May we all find love, peace and justice.

Regards Tony

In regards to "papal infallibility", here: Papal infallibility - Wikipedia

I gotta go for now, but let me just say that I have always had some trouble with this concept, therefore I cannot take it at face-value.

metis said:

In regards to "papal infallibility", here: Papal infallibility - Wikipedia

I gotta go for now, but let me just say that I have always had some trouble with this concept, therefore I cannot take it at face-value.

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You may not be awate that Baha'u'llah wrote to the Pope that made that doctrine and said the Pope must turn to His cause. When the Pope did not respond Baha'u'llah said all power had been seized from the Pope and eclesastics and handed to the people. He told the Pope that if he did not accept, that he would lose all influence. This prophecy was fulfilled with this Pope and the church also lost its long held influence.

This is that Message and it leaves no doubt as to who is the Infallible source in this age.

The Summons of the Lord of Hosts | Bahá’í Reference Library

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

There will be no other force found that can make this happen, other than Faith in God

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That! That's the 'unrealistic hope' I'm talking about. It takes different forms in different religions but that's it in a nutshell - that without God we can't do it - but don't worry, God will make it happen. Well that's not going to happen - the only way that human society can improve is if humans improve it. God - at least any conception of God that is not of this generation - this time - this particular set of human needs and aspirations - is not going to do anything. That is the lesson we need to learn from religion.

siti said:

God we can't do it - but don't worry, God will make it happen. Well that's not going to happen - the only way that human society can improve is if humans improve it.

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It is man that has to do it. In that process they find that they ended up doing what God had asked us to do in the first place. When they find that to be so, they then also embrace Faith in God.

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

It is man that has to do it. In that process they find that they ended up doing what God had asked us to do in the first place. When they find that to be so, they then also embrace Faith in God.

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But the point is that attempting to do it in a way prescribed by an ancient man who reportedly imagined himself to have been in touch with God centuries ago is counterproductive. Human society has moved on in giant leaps since the mid-19th century - you may have noticed - what was suggested then is certainly not a good match for what is needed now...and that gap is only going to get wider as time and humanity 'progresses'.