EVERLASTING OLD COVENANT (Jew V Christian)

Redemptionsong · Jun 17, 2019

rosends said:
please don't quote the talmud if you don;t understand what you are quoting. This section of Sanhedrin has a lot of opinions about a lot of things. Choosing one and trying to tie it two what you think it should mean does you no service. Pay attention to the final position in this section:

(R. Shmuel bar Nachmani): Tifach (inflate, i.e. afflictions should come upon) people who calculate the time of Mashi'ach

Thanks for your advice, but I believe I do know what I'm quoting. It may only be an opinion, but it may also be a correct opinion. We happen to be looking back on this event, not looking forward!

Which is why there will be no Messiah born on earth again.

What Tanna debe Eliyyahu gives is not an exact calculation of the time of the coming, but a response to what God has revealed in his word. 'For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.' [Ps.90:4] Based on the week of Genesis his analysis is very helpful and revealing.

Deuteronomy 29:29, 'The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.'

God has revealed in his Law, his Prophets, and his Writings, all that we need to know to identify the Messiah. Based on the evidence of the Tanakh it is possible to agree with the Jewish Christians of the first century that the man they recognized as the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth, was the true Messiah.

Redemptionsong · Jun 17, 2019

Lionel Refson said:
Corruption in my eyes is NOT everlasting. You have twisted my words and you clearly do not believe God is Perfection. . God blesses everlasting generations of humanity but we have freewill and if we wish to do bad things or behave counter to this Blessing then that is up to us. God's promise and Blessing are eternal and unique unless you believe that God somehow got the words wrong. Genesis 9:6 reminds us that even the murderer must be dealt with by human hands and therefore sin on this Earth, which is human against human is to be dealt with by humanity not God as God in 9:6 makes it clear this world is up to us and we strive and have striven to weed our corruption, over the millennia .
The only sin we could possibly committ against God, IMO, is to be unfruitful to self and others ie to ignore God's Blessing, but then God already knows this, already knew we would be like this and so waits. In the next life we will have to make an account of our behaviour. Revelation, a much later text than Genesis has no relevance in my eyes. The first blessing and Covenant of God are the only ones God gave to the whole of Humanity. Any future blessings or covenants are just wishful thinking in the eyes of humanity.

if you believe in Jesus as anything other than an ordinary human being, you are basically saying that God sent his Son to heal the world and yet all that really happened was yet further rifts and splits in Human Society. God therefore miscalculated the effect of sending his Son and couldn't have foreseen for example the Crusades etc That is not the sort of God I believe in.
One Blessing, One Covenant, no religious instruction, and no future messiahs or new heavens/earths. God is not involved in this world. No one has ever been sent and we should return to study the original Blessing and Covenant more carefully as I have done . My link provides more info on what I have learnt if you are interested. .

According to scripture, Jesus Christ is the firstfruits of the harvest; the first to have been raised from the dead to eternal life. In him, and in him alone, is there resurrection. He said, 'I am the resurrection, and the life.' [John 11:25].

God did bless all generations, on earth. But the LAST GENERATION, which is eternal and of a 'new heaven and earth', is the generation [singular] of Jesus Christ [Matthew 1:1].

If you only accept the first book of the Bible you are in danger of upsetting a God who says, 'if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life'. [Revelation 22:19]

Of course, this is not referring to the book of Revelation alone, but to all the books of the New Testament, and of the Tanakh.

Jesus Christ walked this earth two thousand years ago, and the Good News of his coming has since been spread across the globe. Without doubt, bad things have been done in the name of Christ and religion, but much good has also been done. Salvation, let's not forget, is a process, and each individual who comes to faith must travel a road to sanctification. Ultimately, the judgment of faith, and the works that follow faith, is left to Jesus Christ.

It's worth noting these words in 2 Peter 3:7,8,9;
'But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.'

The reason God allows this sinful world to continue for so long (after the appearance of Jesus Christ) is made clear in the passage above. It is because the LORD is MERCIFUL! Judgment will come - but let's not hurry it, because there are still souls to be saved.

Lionel Refson · Jun 17, 2019

Redemptionsong said:
According to scripture, Jesus Christ is the firstfruits of the harvest; the first to have been raised from the dead to eternal life. In him, and in him alone, is there resurrection. He said, 'I am the resurrection, and the life.' [John 11:25].

God did bless all generations, on earth. But the LAST GENERATION, which is eternal and of a 'new heaven and earth', is the generation [singular] of Jesus Christ [Matthew 1:1].

If you only accept the first book of the Bible you are in danger of upsetting a God who says, 'if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life'. [Revelation 22:19]

Of course, this is not referring to the book of Revelation alone, but to all the books of the New Testament, and of the Tanakh.

Jesus Christ walked this earth two thousand years ago, and the Good News of his coming has since been spread across the globe. Without doubt, bad things have been done in the name of Christ and religion, but much good has also been done. Salvation, let's not forget, is a process, and each individual who comes to faith must travel a road to sanctification. Ultimately, the judgment of faith, and the works that follow faith, is left to Jesus Christ.

It's worth noting these words in 2 Peter 3:7,8,9;
'But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.'

The reason God allows this sinful world to continue for so long (after the appearance of Jesus Christ) is made clear in the passage above. It is because the LORD is MERCIFUL! Judgment will come - but let's not hurry it, because there are still souls to be saved.

The reason i do not accept the New Testament and most of the Old testament ie everything following Genesis 9:19 is because they are in direct contradiction to God's first blessing and promise. To accept that God's first promise and blessing somehow needs to be updated every so often, or indeed amended at all is to deny the Infallible nature of a Perfect God, who knew our future at the beginning . It it is also to deny the fact that God gave us freewill and more importantly it is to deny the word of God.
Anything that has human self-interest, that values one set of people over another or that includes some recipe for getting close to God I reject.

rosends · Jun 17, 2019

Redemptionsong said:
Thanks for your advice, but I believe I do know what I'm quoting. It may only be an opinion, but it may also be a correct opinion. We happen to be looking back on this event, not looking forward!

But what you are quoting is not an in context opinion which explores exactly what was said, one which would disagree with the contention that "there will be no Messiah born on earth again."

Redemptionsong said:
What Tanna debe Eliyyahu gives is not an exact calculation of the time of the coming, but a response to what God has revealed in his word. 'For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.' [Ps.90:4] Based on the week of Genesis his analysis is very helpful and revealing.

If you keep reading afterwards, what the Tanna actually wrote was ובעונותינו שרבו יצאו מהם מה שיצאו -- "because of our sin those time frames increased" so cite them as supporting a chronology and ignore that their position was that chronology is not what is in effect is duplicitous.

Redemptionsong said:
God has revealed in his Law, his Prophets, and his Writings, all that we need to know to identify the Messiah. Based on the evidence of the Tanakh it is possible to agree with the Jewish Christians of the first century that the man they recognized as the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth, was the true Messiah.

Based on the evidence in the torah it is clear that Jesus was no messiah at all as he lacked the personal and theological qualifications delineated, and did not, in his actions, fulfill the role.

Rival · Jun 17, 2019

rosends said:
Based on the evidence in the torah it is clear that Jesus was no messiah at all as he lacked the personal and theological qualifications delineated, and did not, in his actions, fulfill the role.

Sometimes I wonder what Christians think the messiah is actually supposed to do.

Redemptionsong · Jun 17, 2019

Lionel Refson said:
The reason i do not accept the New Testament and most of the Old testament ie everything following Genesis 9:19 is because they are in direct contradiction to God's first blessing and promise. To accept that God's first promise and blessing somehow needs to be updated every so often, or indeed amended at all is to deny the Infallible nature of a Perfect God, who knew our future at the beginning . It it is also to deny the fact that God gave us freewill and more importantly it is to deny the word of God.
Anything that has human self-interest, that values one set of people over another or that includes some recipe for getting close to God I reject.

God's work is perfect, and all his ways are judgment. He doesn't make mistakes. So, the covenants are not contradictions, as you suppose, but agreements or contracts which one side has a habit of failing to keep!

The reason that God has provided us with freewill is so that we can express love freely. God loved us first, and through faith we are able to love him in return.

It makes sense to me that we should wish to be free of iniquity, but I cannot understand why anyone would wish to reject the opportunity to get close to God. What is known as the 'Trinity' in Christianity is, in practice, the condescension of God to dwell amongst us, and to enter our hearts. Whilst in our midst, God makes the sacrifice that takes away the sin that separates us from his Spirit.

Redemptionsong · Jun 17, 2019

rosends said:
But what you are quoting is not an in context opinion which explores exactly what was said, one which would disagree with the contention that "there will be no Messiah born on earth again."

If you keep reading afterwards, what the Tanna actually wrote was ובעונותינו שרבו יצאו מהם מה שיצאו -- "because of our sin those time frames increased" so cite them as supporting a chronology and ignore that their position was that chronology is not what is in effect is duplicitous.

Based on the evidence in the torah it is clear that Jesus was no messiah at all as he lacked the personal and theological qualifications delineated, and did not, in his actions, fulfill the role.

You make some very bold statements here, Rosends. So you think that Jesus 'lacked the personal and theological qualifications delineated, and did not, in his actions, fulfill the role.'?

Well, please go ahead and show me where, in scripture, he is shown to lack the qualifications.

Meanwhile, I will add a few comparisons of my own. You might like to have a close look at them.

These references have been chosen because they all refer to the first coming and to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Clearly, there are other passages that refer to his second coming and judgment.

1. A Stranger. [Ps.69:8] [Compare with John 1:11 and John 7:3, 5.]

2. A Stumbling Stone. [Isaiah 8:14] [Compare with Romans 9:32, 33.]

3. Hated. [Isaiah 49:7; Ps.69:4] [Compare with John 15:24, 25; Acts 4:27.]

4. Reproached. [Ps.69:9] [Compare with Romans 15:3.]

5. Mocked. [Ps.22:7,8] [Compare with Matthew 27:39-44; Matthew 26:67,68; Mark 15:14,19.]

6. Smitten. [Micah 5:1; Isaiah50:6; 53:4; Zech. 13:6,7.] [Compare with Matthew 27:30; Luke 22:63; Mark 14:27; John 1:3.]

7. Spat upon. [Isaiah 50:6; ] [Compare with Mark14:65.]

8. Crucified. [Psalm 22:16] [Compare with John 19:18; John 20:25.]

9. Like a Transgressor. [Isaiah 53:12][Compare with Mark 15:27,28]

10. Suffered for our sins. [Isaiah 53:4,6,8,12; Daniel 9:26] [Compare with John 1:29; Matthew 20:28; Hebrews 9:28; 10:10; 1 Peter 3:18]

11. Resurrected. [Ps. 16:10; Ps.49:15; Ps.71:20; Isaiah 25:8][Compare with Luke 24:6, 31, 34; Acts 2:31; 1 Cor. 15:5-9]

Compare Isaiah chapters 52 and 53 with the four Gospels.

Brickjectivity · Jun 17, 2019

Again, quote mining Paul's ideas is not an answer, nor is it helpful. It gets money in the plate but nothing else. Its just canned speech.

Redemptionsong said:
The reason that God has provided us with freewill is so that we can express love freely. God loved us first, and through faith we are able to love him in return.

Preaching things. Where is the debate content?

Redemptionsong said:
It makes sense to me that we should wish to be free of iniquity, but I cannot understand why anyone would wish to reject the opportunity to get close to God.

Preaching. Where is the debate content?

You know what I don't understand is why anyone would speak authoritatively without researching their material. I believe its Paul who says to fill yourself with the holy spirit. That must mean studying Torah. If you do that then you will be able to understand what he is talking about maybe and determine for yourself if his material is valid. That would prepare you to speak to others in a way that makes sense.

TransmutingSoul · Jun 17, 2019

Rival said:
Sometimes I wonder what Christians think the messiah is actually supposed to do.

The same can be said of the Jews. They have built up all their own expectations, but it is G_d that sends His Messengers and the History of Faith shows that mankind keeps rejecting them.

All the Messiah was to do, has been done. It is us (our own selves) that still chooses not to see it that way. The Jews do play a special part in the fulfillment, but are yet to see it. The Messiah is not an earthly King, but the Messiah does rule the hearts of all men.

BEHOLD, has been shouted from the mountain top, Mt Carmel has seen the 'Glory of the Lord', the Law goes out from Zion and all nations flow up the Mountain of the Lord.

Yet blindness still prevails. It is a strange sleep that covers mankind. How can not this vision posted below, awaken a searching soul;

That is where the Messiah sends G_ds law from.

Regards Tony

Redemptionsong · Jun 17, 2019

Rival said:
Sometimes I wonder what Christians think the messiah is actually supposed to do.

I can answer that with a quotation from Isaiah 61.

The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.'

TransmutingSoul · Jun 17, 2019

Redemptionsong said:
I can answer that with a quotation from Isaiah 61.

The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.'

The acceptable year of the 'LORD' was proclaimed in Daniel and in Revelation. It was the year AH1260 which was also the year AD1844. The day of vengeance is also the day of resurrection.

Regards Tony

Redemptionsong · Jun 17, 2019

Brickjectivity said:
Again, quote mining Paul's ideas is not an answer, nor is it helpful. It gets money in the plate but nothing else. Its just canned speech.

Preaching things. Where is the debate content?

Preaching. Where is the debate content?

You know what I don't understand is why anyone would speak authoritatively without researching their material. I believe its Paul who says to fill yourself with the holy spirit. That must mean studying Torah. If you do that then you will be able to understand what he is talking about maybe and determine for yourself if his material is valid. That would prepare you to speak to others in a way that makes sense.

And here's a quotation for you, Brickjectivity.

'I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
I do not frustrate the grace [Holy Spirit] of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.'

Happy Birthday.

Redemptionsong · Jun 17, 2019

Lionel Refson said:
I am well aware that God does not make mistakes and this is obvious if you read my posts. No one broke the first Covenant, it was replaced by some tribal nonsense a la Moses. God is ONE and only needs to make one covenant and one blessing. The rest is human-made drivel

We do not need Trinities or anything else to be with God. We have all been equally blessed by God to be fruitful and multiply and it is that Blessing that is obscured by talk of 2nd and 3rd Covenants
You have wandered too far away from the simple words God spoke to us all in Genesis 9 ie through our ancestors. You talk of Trinities and sin, when in fact all you have to do to be with God is to be fruitful to self and others

God is always in everybody's heart and we all could know God a lot better if we threw away our religious customs, rituals and prayers and just meditated on the original words of God that were said without prejudice, without favouritism, without human self-interest and without religious instruction.
And BTW any jew or Muslim would strongly disagree with what you say re the Trinity and Jesus etc . Therefore the God you speak of is a human made God of Christianity, divisive, only partly potent, and divided (ie Catholic v Protestant etc).and Jesus has failed!

My God is greater than yours. My God is the ONE, All-Knowing, All Seeing, with Blessings for all regardless of who they are or how they worship, a God long before Judaism or Christianity and a God who demands no prayer, ritual nor custom

One thing though. My God offers no reward on this earth for worshipping My God waits in the afterlife to make a reckoning on my life. My God does not punish the sinner on this Earth . That is up to us to do. So no rewards, no punishments and that never suited ancient tribal leaders like Abraham Moses and Jesus. Without a carrot and a stick they could never have kept their cults in check. I am aware that God will not help me in this world (see my explanation of Genesis 9:6) .I am aware that God will not punish me in this world. I wait to be with God in the next life.

Your religion offers get out of jail cards if you believe this and that..These cards are for the guilt-ridden, those poor souls that your religion and others has made to feel guilty eg homosexuality is a sin etc. But your religion caused the guilt. . and your religion causes other religions to rise up against it. Your God sent you a faulty Messiah, one that has divided the world further. As for me, I have no guilt, I do no sin (I may break the odd minor speeding law) and I only follow 2 rules. I try to be fruitful to self and others and I don't eat the blood of animals, live or dead.
Re God's promise. God read Genesis 9 carefully you will see that God promised never again to destroy us.....for everlasting generations, so I don't have any fear either

Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.'

Redemptionsong · Jun 17, 2019

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
The acceptable year of the 'LORD' was proclaimed in Daniel and in Revelation. It was the year AH1260 which was also the year AD1844. The day of vengeance is also the day of resurrection.

Regards Tony

I understand that the 'acceptable year' is a reference to the time when God accepts a sacrifice from Israel which is pleasing to Him.

This acceptable sacrifice would be Jesus Christ.
Why? Because He was without sin, and He gave himself freely.

Why do you feel the need to look outside scripture, when God has revealed all to us within his Word?

TransmutingSoul · Jun 17, 2019

Redemptionsong said:
I understand that the 'acceptable year' is a reference to the time when God accepts a sacrifice from Israel which is pleasing to Him.

This acceptable sacrifice would be Jesus Christ.
Why? Because He was without sin, and He gave himself freely.

Why do you feel the need to look outside scripture, when God has revealed all to us within his Word?

I see it is covered in scripture. The sacrifice in our age, it is the 'Day of God', no less, came from the East and was returned to Israel, quite an amazing unfoldment of prophecy.

The covernant is for all humanity, no faith or race is excluded.

Regards Tony

rosends · Jun 17, 2019

Redemptionsong said:
You make some very bold statements here, Rosends.

And I notice you abandon all mention of your claims about the talmud. Good choice.

Redemptionsong said:
So you think that Jesus 'lacked the personal and theological qualifications delineated, and did not, in his actions, fulfill the role.'?

Well, please go ahead and show me where, in scripture, he is shown to lack the qualifications.

You act like this is something new. Sigh. It has all been well documented.

OK, start here. Then here. And of course, he wasn't anointed with the actual oil required, plus he failed in the tasks that a future messiah will accomplish. So there's that.

Redemptionsong said:
These references have been chosen because they all refer to the first coming and to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

No, the thing is, they don't. They have nothing to do with the messiah in most cases. Picking verses that tell a sad story and decided that they are messianic doesn't make them so. And Judaism has no notion of a second coming.
Then comparing texts written later designed to echo earlier works and saying that somehow they are related is like writing a book after the lottery number is played and including the numbers and saying that this confirms that the book is prophetic.

Brickjectivity · Jun 17, 2019

Redemptionsong said:
The messianic years may be lost to Jews who do not recognize their Messiah, but they are not lost to the remnant of [Messianic] Jews who, along with many more Gentiles, recognize Jesus Christ as the Anointed One.

That is very harsh criticism and unfounded. Also not only have you lost Paul's points on this but the general basis of Judaism which Christ is grafted into.

Redemptionsong said:
Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.'

Also harsh, unfounded to direct to this member who, by the way, may not consider the gospels to be a reference. I think that if you knew what this passage was about you wouldn't say this to them.

Redemptionsong said:
for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain

"What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God. What if some were unfaithful? Will their unfaithfulness nullify God’s faithfulness?" Rom 3. Basics. Preachers shouldn't be getting paid. Congregations should retire them. Their sunday school classes are exactly as bad as predicted by Paul. To hear you accusing people I wonder what 2 Peter is talking about when it mentions slandering celestial beings. what are stars in the Psalms do you suppose? Hint: Who are stars in Abraham's story? Could they be the peacemakers? Could be, and could you be slandering them? You could, especially if you don't know what you're talking about and start pointing fingers.

Brickjectivity · Jun 17, 2019

I have an idea, and its brilliant. How about if someone who knows what they are talking about explains this topic?

Tumah · Jun 18, 2019

Redemptionsong said:
So, we are in agreement that we should make a sacrifice like Abel did!
Do you make the sacrifice of a lamb? I do. He's called Jesus Christ and he's the Lamb of God. Can you tell me what lamb you sacrifice?

You may think I fabricate nonsense, but that's because you are attempting to nullify all the prophecies to the coming Messiah that are so evident in the Tanakh.

You have even referred me to Psalm 2, as if this is evidence only of the earthly king David, and not the Messiah. Yet the words, 'Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee' are quoted by Paul in Acts 13:32, 33:
'And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, God hath fulfilled the same to us as their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.'

Now, in Paul's time, nearly all the men preaching Jesus as the Messiah were Orthodox Jews. In the case of Paul, a Pharisaic Jew who had been a zealous persecutor of the Christian sect, we have someone intimately familiar with the Tanakh. Yet you, Tumah, seem to think you know better than he!

Clearly you don't believe that the new covenant has yet been made by God. This means that Jeremiah's prophecy, has not, for you, yet taken place. 'But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people'.

For me this prophecy is a present reality because it's a reference to the baptism in the Holy Spirit, which Jesus Christ came to bring. I could not make such a claim were that Holy Spirit not available, and it was made available through the crucifixion, resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ to His throne in heaven. As a Gentile, I am aware that the Holy Spirit was given to Jews first, but then to Gentiles also. As Paul says, 'But we believe that through the grace [Holy Spirit] of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they [Gentiles].' [Acts 15:11]

I guess you are waiting for the coming of the Messiah for the fulfilment of Jeremiah's prophecy?
This itself raises many issues and difficulties. How to recognize your Messiah for a start. You say he will be born as a human on earth. Christians, meanwhile, will be looking to heaven for the Day of the Lord.
You have lost the records necessary to show the Messiah's line of descent from David. So, how is this overcome?
To me it points towards the inevitable rise of a false Messiah, and the leading astray of many.

Jews, like you, should be leading the way in making known the Messiah of the Tanakh, especially since the judgment of God cannot be far off.

I hope you understand that I can only take your method of "reasoning" in small doses.

I honestly can't fathom how you figure out which side of the pants your legs go in. But I assume it's because Abel sacrificed a Cain sacrificed crops which proves that Jesus fulfilled the secondary tithe that Levites give to the Priests.

Redemptionsong · Jun 18, 2019

rosends said:
And I notice you abandon all mention of your claims about the talmud. Good choice.

You act like this is something new. Sigh. It has all been well documented.

OK, start here. Then here. And of course, he wasn't anointed with the actual oil required, plus he failed in the tasks that a future messiah will accomplish. So there's that.

No, the thing is, they don't. They have nothing to do with the messiah in most cases. Picking verses that tell a sad story and decided that they are messianic doesn't make them so. And Judaism has no notion of a second coming.
Then comparing texts written later designed to echo earlier works and saying that somehow they are related is like writing a book after the lottery number is played and including the numbers and saying that this confirms that the book is prophetic.

The sites to which you refer me have the clear intention of dividing Judaism from Christianity, and do, as they acknowledge, leave open the accusation from Christians that all Aish.com's Messianic references are to the second coming.

For example, the Aish site states that Jesus did not fulfil Zechariah 8:23 or Zechariah 14:9. Yet they fail to say that he did fulfil Zechariah 9:9-11 [Read Matthew 21:5 and Matthew 11:29].
And if he is the Messiah that fulfils Zechariah 9:9-11, then he must also be the Messiah that will fufil Zech. 8:23 and Zech. 4:9.
Nowhere does scripture say that there will be two Messiahs, although I have heard this suggested by some Jews.

So, does the Messiah come 'lowly upon a colt the foal of an ***' [Zech.9] or does the Messiah come 'in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.'? [See Daniel 7:13 and Matthew 24:30]

Further to this, I would like to add something Jesus said after his resurrection. On the road to Emmaus he spoke to two disciples, and the following is recorded:
'Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.'

You may want to call Jesus a liar, but I am content that he spoke these words in the knowledge that they were true.

EVERLASTING OLD COVENANT (Jew V Christian)

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