Audie
Veteran Member
It is not about women being smart, but instead
being sly, devious, and using their bodies.
Low cunning, at best, not intelligence.
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Bible & Critical Thinking
- Thread starter PoetPhilosopher
- Start date
It is not about women being smart, but instead
being sly, devious, and using their bodies.
Low cunning, at best, not intelligence.
Audie
Veteran Member
Now now,you are just trying to spoil ID
and everything else dear to the creoheart.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I think it's a good point. But isn't it a logical fallacy only for people who don't believe that God is omnipotent while at the same time using omnipotence to explain the events in the Bible. It isn't a logical fallacy if a person has evidence that God in the Bible is omnipotent.
Example: It's not illogical to use magic to explain the result of "expelliarmus" in the Harry Potter books; because, in the books Harry and the other children and teachers at Hogwarts are wizards and witches.
"God did it" doesn't encourage critical thinking, though. I think that's easy to see. Am I missing something?
Wandering Monk
Well-Known Member
It is setting the cart before the horse to assume that the God of the Bible is omnipotent. We haven't even proved the EXISTENCE of the God of the Bible yet. It is a presupposition that is not shared by anyone but people who already believe in that God. To say that Goddidit presupposes his existence.
If you presuppose his omnipotence there is no end to the silly things that God 'could do.' It just becomes a refuge for people who can't explain something in the Bible.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
It may be silly to an Atheist. But is it illogical?
The Bible claims God exists. Saying "God did it" isn't illogical, it's following the story.
An Atheist claims God doesn't exist. Saying God doesn't exist isn't illogical either. It's following the story.
Really it depends on what a person is trying to prove, doesn't it? Maybe what I'm missing is the context from comments by KenS?
Yes, you can cook up a fallacy at any point. Let's just ignore that there is a higher power even as we ignore that animals do have languages.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
This is a superficial approach to these stories. But it makes sense that an Atheist would not look past the surface.
Samael_Khan
Goosebender
He isn't saying it literally is. He is referring to the points we were making about the relevence of women in the bible. Many people say that the Bible degrades women but, in fact, they seem either to be the voice of reason or they are manipulating men to go against God. The Bible represents them as having manipulative power which is pretty much the best type of power. Men have physical or political power but through manipulation women can control that power by controlling the men. Refer to my previous posts regarding women. They can be humorously referred to as "lower gods" because in the bible they have also been integral in subverting God's plans by turning his followers against Him.
Samael_Khan
Goosebender
Whether God exists or not is irrelevent when considering whether God can do something if he theoretically existed. Consider the Bible as its own fictional universe. God is omnipotent according to that universe. Whether that universe is reality is a different story.
Audie
Veteran Member
Now THAT actually is one of those rarely-seen but so
often claimed "ad homs!! Terrif. Might even have
a tinge of bigotry to it.
Regardless-
That is how women are portrayed. "Surface" or otherwise.
Heck, we are even highly suitable for capture after a battle,
and can be kept as booty, tho only if virgins.
As for deep study of scrip, the religionists come up with so
many versions of the True meaning, it is ridiculous.
The most wildly overrated and overstudied book, ever.
And it aint that interesting or well written.
AND, for superficial treatment, you can hardly
beat the performance of fundys. That is to say, your
average american.
An ABC News poll released Sunday found that 61 percent of Americans believe the account of creation in the Bible’s book of Genesis is “literally true” rather than a story meant as a “lesson.”
Now THAT is shallow.
Samael_Khan
Goosebender
One needs intelligence to come up with sly and devious plots.The men who are fooled by those plots then are clearly lesser.
Come to think of it though, what the Bible shows as intelligence is what you consider "lower cunning". It actually praises that sort of thing through the actions of faithful people. So according to the bible women would still be held in a high regard by being exceptional with the use of "lower cunning".
Audie
Veteran Member
We wont expect a consistent picture to emerge.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Not at all. The point is, that Atheists don't believe the story, so there is very little incentive to look deeper. That's why I said "It makes sense for an Atheist not to look passed the surface."
But there's another point, the point I was making at the beginning of this thread. The behavior, lack of critical thinking, is not directly related to Fundamentalists.
You, as an Atheist, discourage critical thinking about the stories in the bible. Your reply is a perfect example of "dogmatic". And that is what discourages critical thinking. It's not fundamentalism. It's dogma.
And further, your reply is an example of a lack of intellectual integrity. You deny scholarship that does not fit into your paradigm.
Are you sure you're not a "fundy"? Seems you're acting like it right now.
Audie
Veteran Member
.
- 1 Timothy 2:11-15 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent etc.
- 1 Corinthians 14:33-35 ...women should remain silent in the churches (and following).
- 1 Corinthians 11:3-16 Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man (and following).
Samael_Khan
Goosebender
The competing views is what is so fun about the book. The figuring out what the book actually says is the fun part. Its the same a the Matrix with all that hidden symbols which adds deeper understanding of the story.
Since we are speaking subjectively, the book isn't interesting until one gets into typology. It seems to me like the book was meant to be a puzzle rather than to be read straight forwardly. Hence the prophecies, prophetic symbols and the hyperlinking.
I wouldn't throw all the fundys under the bus, even though the majority aren't the brightest tools in the shed. Seventh Day Adventists go pretty deep into typology and deeper meanings.
Audie
Veteran Member
I guess it is fun if you find it to be fun.
People seem to take it all way too seriously.
True deep meaning v true deep meaning.
Of course "fundys" vary a lot. One thing they do
though, I think, have in common is a bedrock
level of ignorance / intellectual dishonesty built
into their beliefs.
For lo, as I have been known to point out,
it is impossible to be an educated and honest
creationist.
This said intellectual dishonesty does kind of
discolour anything else they may have to say
on related topics, I think AND, unlike what is the
case with the scurrilous accusation just posted
about me being intellectually dishonest, I can
readily point to examples, and explain why it is
dishonest.
Samael_Khan
Goosebender
Judges 4 Deborah was Judge of Israel, meaning that she was trusted to lead the Nation of Israel plus she was a prophetess.
Also consider that there were prophetesses, meaning that they had to relay God's messages to people, meaning that they had to teach. God trusted them to do so.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
You're the one who admitted to a superficial approach. So, no not garbage.
Do you have an interest in looking deeper into the biblical story of women in the Old Testament? If not; why not?
And more importantly would you believe any of the sources I bring that oppose your preconceived notions?
Answer: No. Not if you follow the same pattern of our past conversations.
Now... ahem...
did I make that up???
hmmm.... nope... here's your own words describing what it means to lack intellectual integrity. I asked you about it in a previous thread. And this is one of the elements of it. Again. these are your own words on the matter.
So, no. I am not making things up. You don't like the answer, I understand. You don't like being confronted with your own lack of intellectual integrity. I wouldn't like it either.
BTW, it should not be insulting or ad hominem at all to claim that an Atheist would not have incentive to look for deeper meaning into a book which is determined to be false.
Samael_Khan
Goosebender
The problem is that the Bible deliberately leaves the deep meaning open for interpretation. Their is no objectively true deep meaning because what is said isn't explicit. I think they become serious with their "true deep meaning" to control people.
I would say that most are intellectually dishonest and ignorant out of fear. I do know a few who are honest and say that certain beliefs of theirs are not objective while others aren't. There is also a lot of mental gymnastics jumping around with them.
Regarding educated and honest creationists, what do do you mean by creationist? Those guys who reject evolution just because their book says otherwise?
When anybody wants to make a factual claim then they should provide examples. If they dont then disregard them. You will just lower yourself to their level and they will beat you with experience.
Samael_Khan
Goosebender
I think with regards to that picture, we shouldn't confuse what the Bible portrays as a woman's capabilities, with what it says should be a woman's "position", such as regarding headship in the New Testament.