• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

How God's Omniscience Robs Him From Having A Free Will

Skwim

Veteran Member
"so long as a person’s choice is causally undetermined, it is a free choice even if he is unable to choose the opposite of that choice.
But that's where we part company. There is no such thing as choosing. We do what we do because we can do no differently.

Then in what sense would a person's will be free?

.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
"Random" means you have no role in the choice made, because "choosing" means that you do.

To put it another way, if you choose 2 over 1 or 3, it wasn't truly random. Conscious preferences, habits, personality, and a whole host of factors play an influential role in making the choice. As long as it's you who made it, it wasn't random. (Just as random number generating software is never truly random.)
I think that is because you make the assumption, that you know the difference between the options.

Again if I told you to choose between (A), (A) or none of them?

How would you not call that a random choice, you don't know what I mean with any of them, or what the consequences are for selecting one over the others. Yet you still have to choose one.

To me that is a random choice, I don't know how else you could do it? I could even make it so you had to choose one of the (A)'s

So me telling you to choose is basically me forcing you, so that is not free will, but you deciding which of the (A)'s you want is up to you.

Maybe im using the word "random" wrong, but I don't know what else to call it, if you just had to choose whatever option you want, without knowing anything about them. Is there are better word for that?
 
Last edited:

Maximilian

Energetic proclaimer of Jehovah God's Kingdom.
But that's where we part company. There is no such thing as choosing. We do what we do because we can do no differently.

Then in what sense would a person's will be free?

.




The capability of asking "Why" is not to be taken for granted for there is absolutely no "Why," simply no curiosity, without Free Will. There's only acceptance. Free Will creates dissatisfaction. It's what is at the core of our consciousness, our identity. Contrast that with the substances of our material reality. There's simply no doubting. Everything operates just as the rules and regulations of nature's laws determine. So systematically is this adherence that it is possible to outline those principles simply by studying these substances.


Now, imagine if every element of the universe could ask "Why"? Suppose they were able to decide if to abide by those laws or perhaps act in another way? It is this reality precisely which sets us apart. Our minds are designed to evaluate information and make choices based upon it. The final result is not contingent upon how the natural laws govern the behavior of the atoms that make up our brains. Without Free Will, we would certainly have no more volition than a waterway has in deciding its actual course. There is absolutely no "Why." There is certainly no wondering. There's simply doing - like water running down its riverbed.



Btw, if I may, do you have ASD?
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
I think that is because you make the assumption, that you know the difference between the options.
That, too, would influence a choice.

Again if I told you to choose between (A), (A) or none of them?

How would you not call that a random choice, you don't know what I mean with any of them, or what the consequences are for selecting one over the others. Yet you still have to choose one.
Perhaps you have a preference for alphabetical characters, for left to right versus right to left, or perhaps you recognize and have a fondness for the meaninglessness of "none." In any case, there is always a means of choosing, which is essential free will.

The act born (in this case "choice") of "you" is free will.

To me that is a random choice, I don't know how else you could do it? I could even make it so you had to choose one of the (A)'s

So me telling you to choose is basically me forcing you, so that is not free will, but you deciding which of the (A)'s you want is up to you.

Maybe im using the word "random" wrong, but I don't know what else to call it, if you just had to choose whatever option you want, without knowing anything about them. Is there are better word for that?
Randomness isn't something "you" do. In fact, if "you" do something, that's free will. Free will stands in contrast to both fate and randomness. Fate and randomness happen despite you.

That "you" make the choice is all that is required for will to be free.
 
Last edited:

Nimos

Well-Known Member
That, too, would influence a choice.
So even if you don't know how that influence your choice?

Perhaps you have a preference for alphabetical characters, for left to right versus right to left, or perhaps you recognize and have a fondness for the meaninglessness of "none." In any case, there is always a means of choosing, which is essential free will.

The act born (in this case "choice") of "you" is free will.
If what you say is true, if a person commits a crime and he is caught, who exactly are we dragging to court, the person had no choice, so we are dragging his cells to the court and pass judgement on those? And how is it morally right to punish him in the first place, it wasn't his fault that he were created that way, right?

Randomness isn't something "you" do. In fact, if "you" do something, that's free will.
I agree, that randomness is not something I do. If I take a box of M&Ms and shake it and then throw them all on the floor, they will eventually settle there, according to what we refer to as a random pattern, I wouldn't be able to predict how each of them would land. The same applies as I see it, when we make a random choice, we can't predict which option to choose, if we don't know what we are choosing between or what the consequence are. To me that is what random implies. Then you might say that, if we go through every single cell in my body, we would be able to predict it. But you don't have that option of asking your cells and besides that, they are part of you. To me, that makes the question of even talking about free will irrelevante, because then we have to jump to our parents and go through the sperm cell and egg to see what happened there and eventually you end up with having to go through string theory if that is even true.

But the only thing to me that would then matter, is that anyone with such believe as you present it would be irrational to not promote that it is morally wrong to punish anyone for a crime as they had no free will.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
So even if you don't know how that influence your choice?
No, I meant that assumption is an influence.

If what you say is true, if a person commits a crime and he is caught, who exactly are we dragging to court, the person had no choice, so we are dragging his cells to the court and pass judgement on those? And how is it morally right to punish him in the first place, it wasn't his fault that he were created that way, right?
No, I meant that barring a means to know what the symbols mean, we can still choose based on a symbol. And barring that, there will be another means... etc. There will always be a means to choose.

I agree, that randomness is not something I do. If I take a box of M&Ms and shake it and then throw them all on the floor, they will eventually settle there, according to what we refer to as a random pattern, I wouldn't be able to predict how each of them would land. The same applies as I see it, when we make a random choice, we can't predict which option to choose, if we don't know what we are choosing between or what the consequence are. To me that is what random implies.
To me, that sounds more like accident than randomness. If I stumble forward and Monty Hall shouts that that means I choose Door #3, well I had no real prediction in place beforehand of which door it would be. But if Door #3 had a curtain embroidered with small dragons on a sea-blue green ocean, which to me implies Menoly playing a pipe, I might be tempted to choose it regardless of what lies behind Door #3. That isn't random.

Then you might say that, if we go through every single cell in my body, we would be able to predict it. But you don't have that option of asking your cells and besides that, they are part of you. To me, that makes the question of even talking about free will irrelevante, because then we have to jump to our parents and go through the sperm cell and egg to see what happened there and eventually you end up with having to go through string theory if that is even true.

But the only thing to me that would then matter, is that anyone with such believe as you present it would be irrational to not promote that it is morally wrong to punish anyone for a crime as they had no free will.
It's not usually the cells of a body that I would point at to find meaning in a choice, but personal history. Personal history is nothing more or less than me. So I'm with you there.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
To me, that sounds more like accident than randomness. If I stumble forward and Monty Hall shouts that that means I choose Door #3, well I had no real prediction in place beforehand of which door it would be. But if Door #3 had a curtain embroidered with small dragons on a sea-blue green ocean, which to me implies Menoly playing a pipe, I might be tempted to choose it regardless of what lies behind Door #3. That isn't random.
I think we need to get the definitions in place :)

Accident

1. an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury.
"he had an accident at the factory"

2. an event that happens by chance or that is without apparent or deliberate cause.
"the pregnancy was an accident"

Randomness
1. the quality or state of lacking a pattern or principle of organization; unpredictability.
"we accept randomness in our own lives but we crave logic in art"

If its an accident I would have dropped the box with M&Ms, but I shake it and throw it on the floor, so it is intentionally. But even if I have dropped it by accident, the pattern in which the M&Ms land on the floor are still one that we would refer to as one of randomness, because I can't predict how they land.

Random
1. made, done, or happening without method or conscious decision.
"apparently random violence"

The idea of me giving you a choice of choosing between (A), (A) or none of them and you not knowing anything about them, is what we refer to as a random choice, because you have to make an arbitrary decision, maybe that is a better word, I don't know.

So I don't completely disagree with you, as I think for the most part, we actually don't have free will. But in cases where we are put to a test or choice, for which we can't draw on any former experiences we have to make a choice based on what I would call free will. And as we grow up, we have to make a lot of these choices and gather experiences and eventually we are left with pretty much no free will as we have so many former experiences that influence our choices. So the only difference between our views are that we as humans through our former experiences decide, how we eventually loose our free will, if that make sense? :)

Obviously you might have some biological influences based on your genetics etc. But if we will just ignore them for now.

And also you might be right that we have no free will at all :D

It's not usually the cells of a body that I would point at to find meaning in a choice, but personal history. Personal history is nothing more or less than me. So I'm with you there.
I don't think anyone should think like its your cells deciding. But if you think about it, a human is made up by trillion of cells or how many there are. Yet you don't really have control over your brain, for instance trying to say to yourself that you wont think about anything for the next 5 minutes. And most likely after 15 - 30 seconds you have failed at that, but shouldn't it be possible to do that, if you have complete control? But agree its a weird way to think about it, but none the less interesting, why don't we have better control over our brain and thoughts?
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Randomness
1. the quality or state of lacking a pattern or principle of organization; unpredictability.
"we accept randomness in our own lives but we crave logic in art"

If its an accident I would have dropped the box with M&Ms, but I shake it and throw it on the floor, so it is intentionally. But even if I have dropped it by accident, the pattern in which the M&Ms land on the floor are still one that we would refer to as one of randomness, because I can't predict how they land.
And so there is also no choice about where they fall.

Random
1. made, done, or happening without method or conscious decision.
"apparently random violence"

The idea of me giving you a choice of choosing between (A), (A) or none of them and you not knowing anything about them, is what we refer to as a random choice, because you have to make an arbitrary decision, maybe that is a better word, I don't know.
But there's no randomness about the "where they fall" of these options, the options are fixed because they are "on the floor." It doesn't compare to the M&Ms.

Comparably, I'd have to choose from the M&Ms on the floor. And I could choose: I could choose by color, by pattern, by proximity. There's lots of ways to choose. Random isn't one of them.

"Arbitrary" is a word that refers to a person's whim, which is usually dependent upon such things as preferences, assumptions, biases, and other constraints.

What I believe is that, as long it's you making the choice, by whatever means, it's made of free will. That precludes fate and randomness.

So I don't completely disagree with you, as I think for the most part, we actually don't have free will.
I would say, rather, that if it's not "you" choosing, it's not the case of free will. We always have free will if it's the subject of choice doing the choosing.

But in cases where we are put to a test or choice, for which we can't draw on any former experiences we have to make a choice based on what I would call free will. And as we grow up, we have to make a lot of these choices and gather experiences and eventually we are left with pretty much no free will as we have so many former experiences that influence our choices. So the only difference between our views are that we as humans through our former experiences decide, how we eventually loose our free will, if that make sense? :)

Obviously you might have some biological influences based on your genetics etc. But if we will just ignore them for now.

And also you might be right that we have no free will at all :D
We can always draw on former experiences, as long as we have memory.

More experience doesn't make for less free will.

I get the feeling that we are not agreeing. ;)

I don't think anyone should think like its your cells deciding. But if you think about it, a human is made up by trillion of cells or how many there are. Yet you don't really have control over your brain, for instance trying to say to yourself that you wont think about anything for the next 5 minutes. And most likely after 15 - 30 seconds you have failed at that, but shouldn't it be possible to do that, if you have complete control? But agree its a weird way to think about it, but none the less interesting, why don't we have better control over our brain and thoughts?
You don't have control over your brain, but luckily what you have over what you say is control.

Go figure. ;)
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
And so there is also no choice about where they fall.
No, it was to illustrate the difference between the word randomness and random. As these seems to be mixed up, when I say random choice, its gets turned into randomness. That was the only purpose of the M&Ms example :D

"Arbitrary" is a word that refers to a person's whim, which is usually dependent upon such things as preferences, assumptions, biases, and other constraints.
Ok, guess it weren't a better word then :)

What I believe is that, as long it's you making the choice, by whatever means, it's made of free will. That precludes fate and randomness.
Just to be completely clear :D To you we have complete free will, except when talking about fate and randomness, correct?

I would say, rather, that if it's not "you" choosing, it's not the case of free will. We always have free will if it's the subject of choice doing the choosing.
Did you decide what food you like through free will, and if so, how did you through your free will make the choice, that you for instance prefer eating chocolate rather than raw garlic?

We can always draw on former experiences, as long as we have memory.
Yes, you can even draw paralles between different experience to help you make a choice. But as a new born baby having hardly any experiences, hardly understanding anything that is going on around you, you still have to make choices.

More experience doesn't make for less free will.
Yes, it does :) The reason you prefer chocolate over raw garlic and given the option to choose between them. You choose chocolate is because your senses decided which of them you liked, you didn't freely choose to like chocolate over raw garlic, that was decided for you. (Guess im answering me own question earlier :))

So the first time you have the choice to taste each of them to see which of them you like, the second time you will choose chocolate because that was decided for you.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Just to be completely clear :D To you we have complete free will, except when talking about fate and randomness, correct?
Undoubtedly.

Did you decide what food you like through free will, and if so, how did you through your free will make the choice, that you for instance prefer eating chocolate rather than raw garlic?
No, I didn't decide about what food I prefer; but then free will is only about choices, not preferences. Preferences can influence choices.

Also, you don't go "through" free will, rather free will is you doing. If it's not "you" doing, it's not a case of free will.

Yes, you can even draw paralles between different experience to help you make a choice. But as a new born baby having hardly any experiences, hardly understanding anything that is going on around you, you still have to make choices.
Why would babies have to make choices? "Should I cry to make mom feed me, or should I wet my pants? Hmm..." Difficult choice. o_O

Yes, it does :) The reason you prefer chocolate over raw garlic and given the option to choose between them. You choose chocolate is because your senses decided which of them you liked, you didn't freely choose to like chocolate over raw garlic, that was decided for you. (Guess im answering me own question earlier :))

So the first time you have the choice to taste each of them to see which of them you like, the second time you will choose chocolate because that was decided for you.
Yes, but once you've experienced chocolate and garlic, the next experience is not going to significantly impact the outcome unless your taste buds have changed. You freely chose one over the other because of your sense of taste: that is not separate from who you are.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
Undoubtedly.


No, I didn't decide about what food I prefer; but then free will is only about choices, not preferences. Preferences can influence choices.

Also, you don't go "through" free will, rather free will is you doing. If it's not "you" doing, it's not a case of free will.


Why would babies have to make choices? "Should I cry to make mom feed me, or should I wet my pants? Hmm..." Difficult choice. o_O


Yes, but once you've experienced chocolate and garlic, the next experience is not going to significantly impact the outcome unless your taste buds have changed. You freely chose one over the other because of your sense of taste: that is not separate from who you are.
Can you do me a favor and watch this lecture about free will, it is in my opinion the best explanation of the topic I have seen so far. It present each of the difference views and what is meant with free will and at the same time give us an equal ground, so we can avoid talking passed each other.

 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Can you do me a favor and watch this lecture about free will, it is in my opinion the best explanation of the topic I have seen so far. It present each of the difference views and what is meant with free will and at the same time give us an equal ground, so we can avoid talking passed each other.
Thanks for sharing this TED talk. I've heard many of these arguments before. I disagree with much of it.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
Thanks for sharing this TED talk. I've heard many of these arguments before. I disagree with much of it.
Ugh! :thumbsdown:
.............:thumbsdown:
.................:thumbsdown:
.......................As a professor of philosophy this guy really sucks. I've seen more coherent reasoning for the folks here on RF.

.
The point was not whether you agree with his position or not, but to make sure that when we are talking about free will that we are talking according to the same definition. Which to me it seems we are not, which makes its kind of pointless and confusing, but fair enough I think we just have to disagree then :)
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Obviously the concept is beyond what you can understand. Have a really good day, sir!

Your babble does not automatically become something "enlightened" especially as you must ignore what a square and circle are. You are just throwing out assertions without any backing, nothing more.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
The point was not whether you agree with his position or not, but to make sure that when we are talking about free will that we are talking according to the same definition. Which to me it seems we are not, which makes its kind of pointless and confusing, but fair enough I think we just have to disagree then :)
:thumbsup:

.
 
Top