Who will get to heaven?

Gerry said:

“The nature of heaven is to provide a place there for all who lead good lives, no matter what their religion may be.”
― Emanuel Swedenborg

My question: Why not?

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For most Christians, Swedenborg's heaven is a false one. For them it is about faith and believing in certain religious dogma that ultimately counts. Same for Muslims.

The fundamental question to ask is "is there any good reason to believe in a heaven?" There would be no reason to debate the nature of something that doesn't exist..

Milton Platt said:

For most Christians, Swedenborg's heaven is a false one. For them it is about faith and believing in certain religious dogma that ultimately counts. Same for Muslims.

The fundamental question to ask is "is there any good reason to believe in a heaven?" There would be no reason to debate the nature of something that doesn't exist..

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True, but OTOH, let's get to fundamentals. We know the Big Bang happened. We know what happened after. So what came before....if such a question can be asked for an event that began prior to the beginning of Space-Time. Do we just disregard that? Scientifically, yes. Philosophically, no. Only an idiot would ignore the question.

As for the Heaven and Hell question, I strongly doubt any all merciful God would condemn someone to Hell forever. In fact, I believe people put themselves into Hell themselves and can leave anytime they choose. How many times have the mature, experienced adults on this forum seen people do crap to themselves when it wasn't deserved?

Road Warrior said:

True, but OTOH, let's get to fundamentals. We know the Big Bang happened. We know what happened after. So what came before....if such a question can be asked for an event that began prior to the beginning of Space-Time. Do we just disregard that? Scientifically, yes. Philosophically, no. Only an idiot would ignore the question.

As for the Heaven and Hell question, I strongly doubt any all merciful God would condemn someone to Hell forever. In fact, I believe people put themselves into Hell themselves and can leave anytime they choose. How many times have the mature, experienced adults on this forum seen people do crap to themselves when it wasn't deserved?

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We do not need to ignore what happened before the big bang from a scientific standpoint. We just have to not make stuff up. The correct thing to do is to continually pursue a scientific explanation for pre-big bang. Philosophically, You will never get any hard answers. You can explore what might be, but not determine what is. To be clearer....one of the things that philosophy thinks might be can actually be. But it will be science that tells us that it actually is.
I think philosophizing about a heaven is akin to philosophizing about unicorns or fire breathing dragons. They all can be fun and interesting. But philosophy will never establish the reality (or lack thereof) of any of them.

Milton Platt said:

We do not need to ignore what happened before the big bang from a scientific standpoint. We just have to not make stuff up. The correct thing to do is to continually pursue a scientific explanation for pre-big bang. Philosophically, You will never get any hard answers. You can explore what might be, but not determine what is. To be clearer....one of the things that philosophy thinks might be can actually be. But it will be science that tells us that it actually is.
I think philosophizing about a heaven is akin to philosophizing about unicorns or fire breathing dragons. They all can be fun and interesting. But philosophy will never establish the reality (or lack thereof) of any of them.

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Agreed on making stuff up, but certainly you can admit to yourself, if you are honest, that it's a BIG UNKNOWN. Maybe an UNKNOWABLE unknown. Doesn't that mean anything to you?....or do you just believe we're all meat robots?

lostwanderingsoul said:

Very interesting!!! Did you even bother to read the verses you listed? Verse 10 says ""we shall reign on the earth". So I repeat my question is there even one verse that uses the word "heaven" and says people will go there after they die? I can't find it but I am sure you are smarter than me and can point it out.

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Omg man. Just read the words from the Lord himself.

Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

Road Warrior said:

Agreed on making stuff up, but certainly you can admit to yourself, if you are honest, that it's a BIG UNKNOWN. Maybe an UNKNOWABLE unknown. Doesn't that mean anything to you?....or do you just believe we're all meat robots?

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Something that is unknown is just that. Unknown. Why fill the void with a fantasy? That doesn't make it known. As to what is unknowable....that is always viewed from current perspective. To be clear....I have no beef with philosophy. But like all things it has it's limitations.

Milton Platt said:

I think philosophizing about a heaven is akin to philosophizing about unicorns or fire breathing dragons. They all can be fun and interesting. But philosophy will never establish the reality (or lack thereof) of any of them.

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Reality simply exists, and proof of reality does not establish its existence. Proof is just what atheists want so they can believe. But there can never be scientific proof of heaven because it is an immaterial existence.

There is nothing wrong with wanting evidence in order to believe in heaven, and there is evidence. It is just not the kind of evidence that atheists require.

I have a friend who used to be an atheist, but after posting to me on various forums for several years, he now says that God probably exists, but he still insists that there is no afterlife. He is dead set on believing that (pardon the pun). To settle the score, I keep telling my friend that he will have the evidence he requires only after he dies and realizes he is not dead.

JJ50 said:

Only a psycho would flood a whole planet, if that silly story was credible, which of course it isn't!

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Good one. The ‘flood’ story.

1. God did not flood the planet. Gimme a break. I’m sure you do not believe the planet was flooded, or do you?

2. The negative things that you pick up in the Bible are creations of our own doing, to ourselves. Look at the bible as a letter written to YOU personally. You. It’s all about you. Not a bunch of mythical ancient people with no relevance to our present world.

Have you ever had a time when you have been completely overwhelmed ‘flooded’ with life to the point of despair? Wouldn’t it be nice to have some help in getting out of your self made deluge of unhappiness or worry or whatever? Hmmm, what about an arc with which to ride the flood of self induced despair? It’s about YOU.
The story is obviously much much deeper, but I hope my simplification can possibly stimulate some thought. If you are truly interested, you will find the answers. Just search.

3. The Bible is a spiritual letter written to you. Not a group of literal stories written to create a religion. It’s all yours.
Don’t let a religion mess with your personal letter from the creator of the universe. Read it as a love letter to YOU. If you find a story with battles and death and destruction, remember, it’s a love letter to you. All of the battles are not about some ancient peoples killing each other. (How could that type of story be of any benefit to anyone?. Come on, tell me). It’s about the battles within YOU. (Everything written, is there to benefit YOU)

Thank you for your comment.

Milton Platt said:

For most Christians, Swedenborg's heaven is a false one. For them it is about faith and believing in certain religious dogma that ultimately counts. Same for Muslims.

The fundamental question to ask is "is there any good reason to believe in a heaven?" There would be no reason to debate the nature of something that doesn't exist..

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Very nicely put.
I like your question. Would you like to start a thread please?

Gerry said:

“The nature of heaven is to provide a place there for all who lead good lives, no matter what their religion may be.”
― Emanuel Swedenborg

My question: Why not?

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I love Swedenborg and his book Heaven and Hell.

There is no reason why not except that some people want to believe that only they will make it to heaven.
It is mostly Christians who believe this and most of them do not believe that Swedenborg has any credibility.

Gerry said:

Very nicely put.
I like your question. Would you like to start a thread please?

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Would like to, but I am on the site sporadically plus I don't quite know how I would frame the discussion. Afraid that if I started the thread and then was absent for weeks or more, people would accuse me of a "post and run" (rightly so, although not on purpose).

Trailblazer said:

Reality simply exists, and proof of reality does not establish its existence. Proof is just what atheists want so they can believe. But there can never be scientific proof of heaven because it is an immaterial existence.

There is nothing wrong with wanting evidence in order to believe in heaven, and there is evidence. It is just not the kind of evidence that atheists require.

I have a friend who used to be an atheist, but after posting to me on various forums for several years, he now says that God probably exists, but he still insists that there is no afterlife. He is dead set on believing that (pardon the pun). To settle the score, I keep telling my friend that he will have the evidence he requires only after he dies and realizes he is not dead.

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Proof is probably the wrong word to use. evidence is what is lacking. As you have said, there is no way to establish that a heaven exists, other than old texts subject to interpretation and also containing some rather horrific morality. I do not know what sorts of evidence you feel you have, but I would think you are using fairly low standards of evidence. If that seems a bit harsh, that is not the intent. I'm trying to speak plainly and not load you up with "word salad".

Trailblazer said:

I love Swedenborg and his book Heaven and Hell.

There is no reason why not except that some people want to believe that only they will make it to heaven.
It is mostly Christians who believe this and most of them do not believe that Swedenborg has any credibility.

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Absolutely. The Christians don’t particularly like me when I speak of Swedenborg. But then I remember the Lord’s words:
“Everyone will hate you because of me”

Milton Platt said:

Proof is probably the wrong word to use. evidence is what is lacking. As you have said, there is no way to establish that a heaven exists, other than old texts subject to interpretation and also containing some rather horrific morality. I do not know what sorts of evidence you feel you have, but I would think you are using fairly low standards of evidence. If that seems a bit harsh, that is not the intent. I'm trying to speak plainly and not load you up with "word salad".

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There are two distinct kingdoms. An earthly and a spiritual.

Earthly: seen with earthly eyes.
Bible read with earthly eyes (most people in religion).
Earthly ‘proof’ needed.

Spiritual: seen ONLY with spiritual eyes. Think about how often the Lord said “if you have eyes, see”. He was talking to people who obviously had earthly eyes, but the question was whether they had spiritual eyes.
Bible read with spiritual eyes, and the literal stories eventually disappear.
Spiritual ‘proof’ needed, but also given.

I cannot give you earthly proof for a spiritual concept. It’s impossible. It’s not a cop out. It just cannot be done.

But on a positive note, all people are given the abilities required to gain spiritual insight. It took me 65 years. So it’s never too late to find it. You need only seek it with an honest heart.

Milton Platt said:

Something that is unknown is just that. Unknown. Why fill the void with a fantasy? That doesn't make it known. As to what is unknowable....that is always viewed from current perspective. To be clear....I have no beef with philosophy. But like all things it has it's limitations.

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Thank you for agreeing. Now prove what others think is fantasy. I'll away your factual evidence proving them wrong.

Road Warrior said:

Thank you for agreeing. Now prove what others think is fantasy. I'll away your factual evidence proving them wrong.

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That was my point from the very beginning......so we have progressed to my starting point.....

Gerry said:

Omg man. Just read the words from the Lord himself.

Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

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Where? The Bible? Prove that it's the actual word of God and not just the perception of desert nomads from over 2000 years ago.

Milton Platt said:

That was my point from the very beginning......so we have progressed to my starting point.....

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Awesome. So why all the nagging? Are you trying to prove yourself to yourself? I know there are a lot of young people on this forum and young people tend to be needy little f**kwads people who constantly need reassurance that their life means something.
(HINT: it doesn't. LOL)

Road Warrior said:

Where? The Bible? Prove that it's the actual word of God and not just the perception of desert nomads from over 2000 years ago.

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It’s not necessary for me to prove it. You will get no benefit.
Should you actually want proof, you would definitely find it, without my assistance.
But then, that is the question. Do you really want proof, or do you want to feel important and knowledgeable, while belittling other people’s comments? Yes, that is the question.
And the answer is within you.

Gerry said:

Omg man. Just read the words from the Lord himself.

Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

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Oh my goodness. You can't read either. How do you know paradise is heaven. Adam and Eve were in paradise here on earth. Also Jesus was NO in heaven that same day. Several days later He told people not to touch Him because he had NOT yet ascended to the Father. So once again my question is find a verse that says "HEAVEN" and says people go there after death. No prize this time, But thanks for trying.