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Why NOT Religion

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
On Atheism-

1. Abiogenesis is true.
2. Pre-Biotic Evolution is true.
3. It's fine to murder babies.
4. Morality does not exist.
5. Nothing should stop gays from marrying their boy lovers.

Therefore, these feel that there was nothing and nothing happened to nothing and then nothing magically exploded for no reason, creating everything, and then a bunch of everything magically rearranged itself into self-replicating bits which then magically came to life.

Therefore, we are merely concomitant nimieties of the natural world having developed fairly recently on a minute speck left high and dry somewhere in a dreary and meaningless universe, doomed to oblivion one by one and certainly collectively in a relatively not too distant future.
It is ridiculously easy to sea that you rely on the word "magically" (as in magically, exploded, magically rearranged itself, magically came to life) that you lack any grounding in science. And since that's the case, I guess it's natural that you'd have to rely on God magically doing it all.
As a world-famous proponent of this philosophy candidly expressed-
"The greatest obstacle to my freedom, the greatest block and limitation to it, consists in the insupportable ‘value judgment’ that I was bound to respect the rights of others. I asked myself, who were these ‘others’? Other human beings, with human rights? Why is it more wrong to kill a human animal than any other animal, a pig or a sheep or a steer? Is your life more to you than a hog’s life to a hog? Why should I be willing to sacrifice my pleasure more for the one than for the other?

Surely, you would not, in this age of scientific enlightenment, declare that God or nature has marked some pleasures as ‘moral’ or ‘good’ and others as ‘immoral’ or ‘bad’? In any case, let me assure you, my dear young lady, that there is absolutely no comparison between the pleasure I might take in eating ham and the pleasure I anticipate in raping and murdering you. That is the honest conclusion to which my education has led me—after the most conscientious examination of my spontaneous and uninhibited self.”"
-Ted Bundy, paraphrased and rewritten by Harry V. Jaffa, Homosexuality and the National Law (Claremont Institute of the Study of Statesmanship and Political Philosophy, 1990), 3–4

As such, Atheism is a threat to all who love life and choose to live morally.
Do you know what, I find it particularly vile that you would include that here in a blatant attempt to paint me and all others who do not believe in God as being the same sort of person as the very sick Bundy. But I suppose if that's you best you've got...

I would report it, but I would prefer that you see for yourself what you've done, and repent as you should, on your own.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Please feel free to tell me when you think I'm dead wrong, but ONLY if you are prepared to back up your criticism with a fact-based argument.

There are reasons why we would be better off without religion, in one of His talks in Paris, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá said:

"Religion should unite all hearts and cause wars and disputes to vanish from the face of the earth; it should give birth to spirituality, and bring light and life to every soul. If religion becomes a cause of dislike, hatred and division it would be better to be without it, and to withdraw from such a religion would be a truly religious act. For it is clear that the purpose of a remedy is to cure, but if the remedy only aggravates the complaint, it had better be left alone. Any religion which is not a cause of love and unity is no religion...."

That really covers it all. To me, It also offers that if religion does call for and fosters good, then it is praisworthy and should be embraced.

Regards Tony
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
But what do the "nuanced and differing views on sex and sexuality" held by "nearly all religions" have to do with anything? Sex and sexuality are not religious expressions. Almost never done in church any more, so I understand.

Why does it have do be done in church to be spiritual? Sex is very spiritual in Christianity!
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
There are reasons why we would be better off without religion, in one of His talks in Paris, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá said:

"Religion should unite all hearts and cause wars and disputes to vanish from the face of the earth; it should give birth to spirituality, and bring light and life to every soul. If religion becomes a cause of dislike, hatred and division it would be better to be without it, and to withdraw from such a religion would be a truly religious act. For it is clear that the purpose of a remedy is to cure, but if the remedy only aggravates the complaint, it had better be left alone. Any religion which is not a cause of love and unity is no religion...."

That really covers it all. To me, It also offers that if religion does call for and fosters good, then it is praisworthy and should be embraced.

Regards Tony
The problem for me, Tony, is that you continue to insist on this idea of "messengers" sent by God to reveal such "truth" as is now relevant (messengers such as Abdu’l-Bahá). But the reality is this: it never works, and has never worked. This chosen method of God's can only be considered a failure.

Think about all the "messengers" you yourself might be willing to consider true messengers of God. We can start, if you like, with Abraham, then move on to Moses, (I'll ignore the Biblical prophets, since I don't know how you see them fitting in), Jesus, Mohammed, Abdu’l-Bahá. Who else can we add...Joseph Smith? Billy Graham? Sun Myung Moon?

Abraham got his message out to how many, in all the world at his time? Same for Moses, Jesus and Mohammed. Even today, how many are adherents to the message of Abdu’l-Bahá. And what have been some of the major outcomes? How many religious wars, how many martyrs, how many brutal tortures and murders? How "ecumenical" is our world today, compared to any other time in its history?

I don't think it matters how "praiseworthy" any religion might be...if it is powerless to overcome our own human nature on a global human scale (because surely God is God of all, if of any) then it fails. And as you consider us to be God's handiwork, the failure must also be God's.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Why does it have do be done in church to be spiritual? Sex is very spiritual in Christianity!
Sex is a primal, powerful impulse, experienced by nearly every animal that reproduces...for a pretty obvious reason...the need to reproduce. And all humans have that impulse, regardless of any religious or spiritual beliefs, or lack thereof. You can try to subsume even that into your religious belief, if you like, but to me, you might as well make breathing into a religious experience, too.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Abraham got his message out to how many, in all the world at his time? Same for Moses, Jesus and Mohammed. Even today, how many are adherents to the message of Abdu’l-Bahá. And what have been some of the major outcomes?

Abdulbaha (Servant of Baha) was the Son of Baha'u'llah, who Baha'u'llah had appointed as interpreter of the writings after Baha'u'llah passed on.

The Bible tells us how to judge a True Prophet amongst the may false prophets. Longevity is one of these. It is the longevity and practice of morality from the Messengers that aids all the peoples of the world to make good choices, even if they do not come to know the source of those good thoughts. This is why Christ said He had many sheep that were not of the Christian flock.

Thus we can safely say the Messengers that still show that longevity and capacity to change hearts would be Noah, Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zororaster, Buddha, Jesus Christ Muhammad and in this day, the Bab and Baha'u'llah. The Messages of Bab and Baha'u'llah form a harmonious whole for this age and are the fulfillment of all past Messages from God.

I see the Baha'i are practicing and have embraced a global vision of Unity, founded in love, peace and justice. I see all that want to implement these virtues will also embrace what Baha'u'llah has offered.

Regards Tony
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Nearly all religions treat homosexuality, a natural variation in orientation, as sinful and anathema, resulting in discrimination, parents disowning their children, murder, and suicide … I can give evidence of all of these
Actually, that's almost only an Abrahamic aberration. They went around the world, committing cultural genocide and forcing their morals on the populace. That's why you'll find homophobic Hindus, for example, when Hinudism itself has nothing bad to say about LGBT folk. It's a relic of colonialism. Even Islam was more LGBT friendly than Christian cultures were, before they were colonized by Europeans.

Most of the criticisms that modern Western "new atheists" use to reject and smear all religion really just pertain to the Abrahamic religions, especially Christianity. Most Westerners are extremely ignorant about religions outside of Christianity, and even about Christian theology and philosophy.
 
Let's of back to the beginning and label one small group the Irish and their neighbor we'll label the English.

Now, let's also divide them into Catholic and Protestant groups. Now we can have wars between Irish Protestant and Irish Catholics, The English Protestants against the English Catholics, or we can pit Irish and English Catholics against Irish and English Protestants or we can have a war between the Irish and English not involving religion.

So, you're saying that religion hasn't been a divisive force?

Do you understand the difference between 400 years ago and 100,000 years ago?

Apparently not, as you continually assume human history began a few hundred years ago in Western Europe.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Sex is a primal, powerful impulse, experienced by nearly every animal that reproduces...for a pretty obvious reason...the need to reproduce. And all humans have that impulse, regardless of any religious or spiritual beliefs, or lack thereof. You can try to subsume even that into your religious belief, if you like, but to me, you might as well make breathing into a religious experience, too.
Yes... people do it for different reason and some sex acts are very primal... but that wasn't your statement.

You said it wasn't spiritual in religion yet in Christianity it is very spiritual.

You can make anything spiritual non-spiritual

Even your talk can be spiritual or non-spiritual. And, yes, let everything that hath breathe, praise the Lord... it can be a spiritual expression.
 
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Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
White washing atheists atrocities doesn't to you any better than me white washing the Catholic Church's inquisition.
Heres the key and crucial difference: Stalin was an atheist but he didnt act on atheism (rather he acted on his own lust for power), the Catholic Church is Christian and did act on Christianity when they carried out the Crusades, Inquisition, witch hunts, and other atrocities.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Stalin could turn nowhere in Marx to justify the gulags. Christians can turn to the Bible to justify slavery, murder, oppressing others, and child abuse.
 

Firemorphic

Activist Membrane
Well, if it is, then you're going to have to admit two things:

1. Nearly every animal on this earth has religion, and
2. People without religion can't be having sex, or sexuality. Ask around, see we're doing...:rolleyes:

No, you just don't get me.

Sex is a bond, a union, the orgasm itself is like a moment of 'heaven' (not just metaphorically, it's a kind of momentary euphoria, like a limited microcosm of what actual heaven is in it's metaphysical sense). Sex itself is in part a physical thing, but it's also an emotional, aesthetic, psychological and...you guessed it...a spiritual thing.
Even just as a physical act alone, it is kind of like a religious tradition. Whether you go back to Ancient Greece or to modern nightclubs, there is a mysterious aspect of it that is a little more than just an act. Even though that many people bastardize it into physical, lustful arousal, the union of genitals and the eye-to-eye contact of two lovers is an act of searching for the ultimate other (however you conceptualize it).
There are many practices across most religions in some form or another that include this in some form, Buddhism has Yab-Yum, Hinduism has Tantra (so does Taoism), where penetration without ejaculation can build up altered states of consciousness in both lovers.
Other religions have forms of Asceticism (Nuns are a famous example), which emphasize other qualities that averting oneself from sex (and retaining desires for the act) has to the very same elements of the psyche (both psychological and spiritual). There are two extremes and they both have their spiritual benefits, both relating to mind and heart, wherein the act itself is not a self-fulfilling physical piece of entertainment inasmuch as a means to an end.

On animals, they don't have the aesthetic (look, color, smell, clothing, etc) concerns we do as humans. Nor are they particularly ritualistic or selective on any emotional level like ourselves. There is an intensity in humans that is not alike animals, though the absolute devaluing of sexuality and sex itself has kinda make people think like animals about sex. It's a massive topic, it's not such a closed book either.

People without religion still often search for the other in sex but often don't have much of a frame work or discipline for getting the most potential out of it. (hence the Porn industry) The modern Western world in particular has really devalued sex into just a product, like buying a pack of cigarettes, in and out, nothing matters as long as it's not rape. This attitude and also superstition (like amongst some Christians) about it, is an unfortunate happenstance in history, hopefully we will find our footing again.

And this is leaving out the significance of procreation, which adds another element to this.
 
Your insults are tiresome and I can't make enough sense of your logic to debate it.

It's not an "insult" to point out the flaws in your reasoning.

You say there were 2 groups in the 17th c: Catholic & Protestant.

How many groups were there 2000 years before this? More or fewer?

Now think 20,000 years? 200,000?

Your society gets more fragmented the longer you go back.

For better or worse no force in history has united more people into bigger groups than the world's major religions (which evolved out of smaller religions).
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
On Atheism-

1. Abiogenesis is true.
2. Pre-Biotic Evolution is true.
3. It's fine to murder babies.
4. Morality does not exist.
5. Nothing should stop gays from marrying their boy lovers.

<snip a lot of nonsense>

Doesn't your faith prohibit falsehoods - since the above (in bold) you must know not to be true? The rest isn't worth bothering with. Such a lovely face of JW-ism to present to any future faithful. Well done!

As such, Atheism is a threat to all who love life and choose to live morally.

The biggest threat to all is the (often wilful) ignorance and arrogance that has produced so many conflicting religious beliefs.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Heres the key and crucial difference: Stalin was an atheist but he didnt act on atheism (rather he acted on his own lust for power), the Catholic Church is Christian and did act on Christianity when they carried out the Crusades, Inquisition, witch hunts, and other atrocities.
That is your interpretation.

He had no problem killing because he was an atheist. And the inquisition was about power
 

Maximilian

Energetic proclaimer of Jehovah God's Kingdom.
<snip a lot of nonsense>

Doesn't your faith prohibit falsehoods - since the above (in bold) you must know not to be true? The rest isn't worth bothering with. Such a lovely face of JW-ism to present to any future faithful. Well done!



The biggest threat to all is the (often wilful) ignorance and arrogance that has produced so many conflicting religious beliefs.

You seem to be confused. How does Atheism compel morality?
 
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