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Lies and Phony Caricatures of Christianity

PoetPhilosopher

Veteran Member
I can point to threads like this, as examples of the diversity of OPINION that surround the interpretation of biblical texts. Here are some possibilities:
1. All the opinions are wrong, and the meaning intended by the author has been missed by everyone.
2. There is a precise intended meaning by the author, and an historical exegesis to follow, that elucidates that meaning. All other interpretations are distortions, heresies, or mistakes.
3. The author of the particular text had no intended meaning, and wrote it as a joke to confuse people.
4. The text in question was written by someone else, centuries later, to promote a deception.
5. The biblical texts are all allegorical, with no specific intended meaning. They are to be spiritualized, and mean different things to different people, in a spiritual sense, only.

As a historian of biblical Christianity, my take is the second one. The author of the text had a specific meaning intended, and the application and interpretation SHOULD be viewed through that intended meaning, or exegesis, as it is called by biblical scholars.

Here is a diagram that might help, though i, personally, view it much simpler:

main-qimg-7d4d8890d49a951875bafa3ae60e3879-c


Hermeneutics is the study of textual interpretation. This is something very critical to understanding the central message of those who spoke to us in the Name of God. For millennia, biblical scholars have taken this very seriously, and there is a timeline of commentaries, expositions, and volumes of books written on the particular topic.

So for the followers of Jesus, there should be no doubt, as to the validity, intent, historicity, and authority of the scriptures, which have been preserved for our instruction, correction, and training. We have centuries of sound biblical scholarship to confirm the reliability of the biblical texts.

There is also millennia of heresies, departures, & distortions of the biblical texts, from the Enemy of Truth, who comes to kill and destroy. He is the Father of lies, and deception is his inherent nature. His goal is to muddy the waters of Truth, bringing confusion and doubt as to the validity of the message of redemption. 'Hath God said?' is his favorite line to lead people away from sound, exegetical theology, to the abyss of heresy and false doctrines.

So beware! The devil prowls about seeking those he may devour. The gospel is true, historical, and has been preserved, over the centuries. Don't be led astray by old heresies and false teachings. There is One faith.. One God.. and One Way of redemption, through the Divine Person of Jesus. Don't be led astray by Johnny come lately theories and interpretations, which are usually just repackaged heresies, from ancient times.

Screenshot_20190615-091916~2.png


Screenshot_20190615-092025~2.png
 

usfan

Well-Known Member
Doesn't change the fact the party you subscribe to was once as far as I can tell Democrats and broke away.
?

ROFL!

even better! Ad hom deflections never cease with progressive indoctrinees.. ;)

The 'party *I* subscribe to? Lol!

How would you know which, if any, 'parties!' I subscribe to?

..some groupthink loyalties and narratives, to keep the 'us vs them!!' narratives alive?

Lol!
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Ah ha! Gotcha! :p

'X' has been the symbol for Christ for millennia. It is an abbreviation.

But there's no getting any 'gotcha' moments by you! ROFL! Good to have an astute member here, to catch evildoers in their evildoing! :D

Doubt whatever you like, and read evil intent in all my posts, if it pleases you.. ;)

ΙΧΘΥΣ

You? Get me?
You couldn't catch a cold.

And I wonder if you will be complimenting @sojourner on his integrity?
Hmmmm....... Nah...... not you,, methinks.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I would guess your mission, then, is to heckle and disrupt any historical, biblical xtians and their threads. Were you assigned me, or did you get to choose? :D

Your idea of history seems to be misguided.

But in any case, @Skwim has trashed the majority of your opening post without even having to post on it yet.

What a disgusting kind of false Christianity that clearly is, to celebrate a mass shooting and call for execution of all LGBTQ+ folks. Your claims are busted and phony.
 

usfan

Well-Known Member
But in any case, @Skwim has trashed the majority of your opening post without even having to post on it yet.

What a disgusting kind of false Christianity that clearly is, to celebrate a mass shooting and call for execution of all LGBTQ+ folks. Your claims are busted and phony
Ah, yes. You appeal to another poster, who has illustrated my list, and correlate all of Christianity with this shining example of Christian faith?

Finding fuel, or even making it up, is no problem for the anti-christian propagandists out to smear Christianity with lies and false caricatures..

You illustrate the OP very well. Thanks. ;)
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Ah, so now my points are true, but they were strawmen, yesterday? :shrug:

I don't use the term 'strawman'.

And the vast majority of your claims are now shown to be phony, false, untrue.

Fundamental Christianity is clearly utterly disgusting, when a Fundamental Baptist Church can celebrate a mass killing and seek execution for people because of their sexuality.

Jesus would have nothing to do with such inhumanity.

There cannot be any true love and understanding in fundy Christianity.

Your OP is busted.

We're done here, really.

Any more posts from me to your horrid and phony claims is unnecessary.

Bye.
 

usfan

Well-Known Member
Any more posts from me to your horrid and phony claims is unnecessary.
Ok. Thanks for the discussion, though i don't know why you have to storm off in an indignant huff..

Projection? Correlating me with some demonized scapegoat of 'horrible xtians!', to justify outrage and bigotry?

..whatever floats your boat...
:shrug:
 

wandering peacefully

Which way to the woods?
Premium Member
Finding fuel, or even making it up, is no problem for the anti-christian propagandists out to smear Christianity with lies and false caricatures
You do realize that nobody needs to make up fuels against accepting your brand of Christianity right? I'm certain you provide that fuel yourself with your intolerance, manner of communication, and attitudes.
I doubt many Christians accept your approach either. You're not helping your cause. Imo of course. So go ahead and rant on some more.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Some false narratives, and my short rebuttals:

1. Christianity is responsible for most of the atrocities of humanity.
False.
Human greed, the lust for power, and man made institutions are at the root of man's inhumanity to man, not Christian ideology, which teaches the exact opposite.
2. The bible is full of errors.
False.
No historical accounts recorded in the biblical manuscripts have been disproved or refuted by any evidence.
3. The bible has changed many times.
False.
The early church fathers quoted every passage in the new testament, and plenty from the old. There is no substantive disagreement with our current translations. All the historical manuscripts have lots of corroboration from other documents. The biblical manuscripts have a long history of scholarship and textual criticism by a continuous line of biblical scholars, translators, and historians.
4. Hitler was a Christian.
False.
Hitler despised Christianity, and esteemed Islam. He was a chameleon, manipulating people for his agenda. He did not follow or esteem the teachings of Jesus.
5. Christianity is an opiate for humanity, squashing free expression.
False.
Christianity has provided the basis for enlightenment thought, freedom of conscience, human equality, and the natural rights of Man.
6. The bible can be translated in many ways, and can mean whatever anyone wants it to mean.
False.
There is a scholarly, exegetical intent of the words used in the biblical manuscripts. Scholars may differ in some of the nuances in translation, but the source is clear and historically accurate. Individuals might apply personal meanings from a passage, but that does not override the original intent of the author.
7. Christianity demands a political theocracy, mandating Christian values as law.
False.
That is the agenda of Marxism and Islam. Historical Christianity is not involved with the secular state, and has always been contrary to the mandates from despots. Since the reformation, separation of church and state has been a constant theme.
8. Christianity is an ideology of oppression, mandating conformity and submission to elites.
False.
Christianity has never been a good fit with man's institutions. It has constantly rebelled against the status quo, and openly defied human authority and power.
9. Christianity is anti science.
False.
Many early scientists were Christians, looking to see 'what God hath wrought'.
10. Christianity is anti education.
False.
Almost all older universities have Christian principles in their mission statement.
11. Christianity is bigoted and racist.
False.
Christians led the abolition movements. Human equality is a basic principle of Christianity. It is anti elitist, unlike the institutions of the world.

None of my lists are strawmen. Some have been clearly illustrated in this thread, multiple times.

Most of the above are straw men. It's already been explained to you. You exaggerate the claims made against Christianity and then ridicule the straw man you've created as if there were no merit to the actual claims made. Much of Christianity is anti-science, anti-intellectual, and anti-formal education. You are pretending that a more extreme claim has been made so that you can mention an exception and think that you have accomplished anything more than to paint yourself as a propagandist. You are exactly what you accuse others of. You come here with your false narrative and attempt to indoctrinate others with endless repetition of unevidenced claims.

But you have no chance of succeeding. Critical thinking is a skill that is learned, usually at university. Once one becomes accustomed to skeptical empirical thought, others cannot simply insert ideas into his head through repetition. That's for Sunday school - you know, "Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so." Rinse, lather and repeat.

What's that if not indoctrination - repetition of an unevidenced idea until it is believed. What is saying grace at mealtime but indoctrination - repetition to reinforce a belief? Critical thinking entails rejecting this kind of passive absorption of unexamined ideas.

blatant distortions, presented as 'error!'

The Bible is full of assorted categories of errors - unkept promises, moral and intellectual errors ascribed to a perfect god, internal contradictions, and dozens if not hundreds of errors in science and history. There's even a flagrant mathematical error (pi is not 3).

You can't make those invisible to others as they apparently are to you. I see errors and people like you telling me that they're not errors, meaning I see both errors in the Bible and the brainwashing of believers to not see them. Claiming that all dry land was submerged in 40 days, and that all types of existing animals had been collected from and later returned to remote regions of the world simply never happened. That's not an allegory or a metaphor. That's an error. It never happened

You would know that if you used evidence to make decisions rather than faith. There simply isn't enough water on earth for that to happen, and if there were, the world would still be flooded. That's how reason applied to evidence allows one to come to correct conclusions.

Faith is just guessing. By faith, one can believe anything or its polar opposite, which is how we can know that faith is not a path to truth. At least one of those ideas is wrong. Which one? The only way to know is to consult physical reality. Evidence.

It is your belief, from years of anti-christian Indoctrination.

My opinion of Christianity comes from observing Christians and seeing how it affects them - their character, disposition, intelligence, etc.. Originally, I learned about Christianity from most of ten years of being one, attending church regularly, but as I explained to @Spartan , that eventually wasn't enough.

Then I learned about Christianity from the news. I saw what kinds of people Christians respected. people like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. I zealous Christians shooting up abortion clinics, the great pedophile coverup by the Catholic church (and these people want prayer in school as if that has any beneficial effect - they pray in those churches don't they?). The great Palin and Duggar hypocrisies, and more. It's not bee a good last few decades for the church.

And finally, I have learned from Christians like you while participating in religious message boards. Does he seem happy? Is his religion bringing him peace? Do I find his thinking to be sound? Is he fair? Is he informed?

keep pounding the anti-christian propaganda drum.

Why do you suppose that so many people dislike or disrespect Christianity? How did the church get such a bad PR problem? None of it is their fault, right? It's all due to malicious, unprovoked, assaults on a beautiful institution by people that should be admiring Christianity instead, right?

IMO, it is because of the growth of Progressivism, as a competing worldview. It is a competing religious belief, about the nature of the universe, and the usual human practice of religious bigotry is used, to promote THEIR beliefs, while demeaning the competition.

So you see this as a competition? That's the way science is viewed by fundamentalists - as if scientists are plotting to subvert religion by forcefully keeping gods out of their scientific theories.

Incidentally, when you were trying to take credit for Christianity for civil rights, abolition, and the like, were you not aware that those are all progressive ideas? We don't need Christianity to know that slavery is wrong, or that women deserve social and economic equality. Wasn't it the church that scuttled the Equal Rights Amendment? Isn't it prominent Christians like Anita Bryant and Phyllis Schlafly that oppress homosexuals?

I'm still confused by this competition you are imagining. If Christianity disappeared from the earth tomorrow, nothing would change in my life except perhaps I wouldn't hear church bells pealing any more on Sunday morning, and no more knocks from the Jehovah's Witnesses. Christianity isn't even a blip on the radar except when it's inserting itself in lives where it is unwanted and unwelcome.

The widespread increase of anti-christian reviling, mocking, and ridicule is evidence of this observation.

And what if anything is your part in this negativity about Christianity? Do you see yourself as a good will ambassador who makes Christianity seem more appealing?

the American Founders were ALL, to a man, sympathetic to, respectful of, and held in high esteem, the bible and Jesus.. the basis of Christianity.

Except where they started a revolution against a king in direct defiance of scripture.
  • "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves."- Romans 13:1-2
  • "Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient" - Titus 3:1
No thanks. That's for subjects under the authoritarian rule of a despot. My ideology teaches us to become the most we can, which includes living life as a free, autonomous, empowered, educated citizen engaged voluntary in a social contract of mutual cooperation.
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
pounded as a propaganda meme until the hapless pupils surrender their critical thinking abilities, and fall in line with the other bobbleheaded indoctrinees.

Agreed. Welcome to Sunday school. Let's all bobble our heads now in prayer in unison. Repeat after me, "Our father, which ..."

I don't mind decent Christians

Me, neither, and we have quite a few on these threads. I was mentioning that I judge the religion by the effect it has on its adherents. The Christians I like best are the ones who are essentially the same as humanists in temperament, education, and character, but also happen to believe in the Christian god, a fact about them that I bet I wouldn't know if these were co-workers, for example, and one that doesn't matter to me at all.

The more outwardly religious people are, the more damaged it appears to be. There is a spectrum from not noticeably damaged to practically comatose - utterly unable to think, with far too many of the latter. Then I look at the spectrum of humanists, and like what I see much more. Those most affected by humanism are some of the best and brightest people I encounter.

your blatantly bigoted screeds against Christianity

Look at how you project. You're the one with the screed. It's directed at your perceived enemies. It why you're here. You really don't like us, and you're here to verbally spank us, paradoxically, by calling us religious indoctrinees. Somehow, you consider progressive to be an insult.

Asserted and accused, with no evidence. I have looked long and hard for any arguments, reason, or evidence for your accusations toward Christianity or a particular Christian. You just have smears and narratives, with no proof of any of your accusations.

What accusations? That you project? That Christianity appears to be a less successful people-generating ideology than humanism?

I'm satisfied that the criticisms of both Christianity and some of its representatives are just and accurate, and I dare say the rest of the people disagreeing with you would agree with that comment as well.

progressive indoctrinees are blatantly bigoted, toward Christianity

Poor Christians, treated so unjustly, disliked through no fault of their own. You really ought to give it a rest. You sound like Trump. Nothing is his fault, either. It's not a sympathetic image.

I tried to broach that issue with you in the past to help you step outside of yourself and see yourself as your target audience does, but you weren't interested, which is not a surprise. I imagine you see yourself as a goodwill ambassador for your faith, but you are having the opposite effect, and I'm sure that you don't know that and can't be made to know that whatever evidence you are presented.

This is what is happening to Christianity. It's self-destructing. People like you are damaging it, not us.

These caricatures have been pounded as 'truth!' for so long, and from EVERY progressive dominated institution, that evidence and critical thinking are discarded, in favor of believing the narratives.

And you don't see yourself as a living example of these so-called caricatures? You're running through the thread with your hair on fire, agitated, unhappy, blaming others for your own faults and shortcomings. What effect do you imagine showing that face has on your intended audience?

it is a symptom of the death of Reason

Faith is the death of reason, and reason the death of faith. They are antithetical. The sound application of reason leads to a single, correct conclusion, as when adding a column of numbers. Do it properly, and there is only one correct sum, reproducible to other people. Make a mistake, and you go off the road. Now many answers are possible. By faith, you can believe any of them or even all of them. By faith, one can believe that 2 + 2 = 5 and also 6. Or that dead people get up and float away.

That's the death of reason.

Propagandists need volume and repetition. I have to rely on reason and truth

You are a propagandist. You have an agenda to promote your meme about false narratives and others being indoctrinees, and you do it with nothing but repetition of false claims. You have no truths, just faith-based beliefs and an agenda to promote Christianity by repeating them over and over and over without supporting your claims.

Christianity and the bible went from being the respected, majority ideal of the cultural worldview, to a ridiculed, smeared caricature, over the last 50-60 years.

Blame it on more people becoming more educated both because of more people getting more formal education, and modern global telecommunications that have really lifted the rock and exposed the church's dark side. It's pretty much nonstop scandals and examples of hypocrisy, making Christianity much less respectable and atheistic worldviews much more socially acceptable. The church can no longer successfully demonize atheists, nor define us as immoral, especially with all of these scandals of theirs.

Another favorite tactic from the anti-christian detractors is to malign any who oppose the accusations and phony narratives

That's all you. You just keep shooting yourself in the foot.

And why do you care? Are you not free to read your Bible and sing hymns to Jesus all day either way? Is your hoped-for salvation jeopardized?
 

usfan

Well-Known Member
Most of the above are straw men.
This changes from day to day. Yesterday, they were 'all mostly true!'

I attribute the confusion to the bubblegum wall syndrome, where accusations are thrown constantly, with no evidence, in hopes that something will stick.

If something didn't stick one day, say the opposite the next. Promoting the Narratives, NOT facts or understanding, seems to be the goal.
paint yourself as a propagandist. You are exactly what you accuse others of. You come here with your false narrative and attempt to indoctrinate others with endless repetition of unevidenced claims.
..funny.. you go through and use my replies and terminology, in a 'oh yeah? Well you, too!' Rebuttal.

It would be nice if there was someone with more originality, as i feel like I'm debating myself, with my own words flipped against me.. ah well.. i should be flattered by the idea that my words are so incisive that they are turned around and thrown back.
The Bible is full of assorted categories of errors - unkept promises, moral and intellectual errors
Yes, so you keep asserting. I still am waiting for an actual evidence based argument..
There simply isn't enough water on earth for that to happen, and if there were, the world would still be flooded.
:rolleyes:
Really? Have you even researched this false assertion?

More, 'throw out something and see if it sticks!'

Progressive indoctrinees.. :rolleyes:
My opinion of Christianity comes from observing Christians and seeing how it affects them
No problem.. we all have to access truth, or at least belief, by some means.
Then I learned about Christianity from the news.
ah, good plan! :D
I have learned from Christians like you while participating in religious message boards.
No problem.
Why do you suppose that so many people dislike or disrespect Christianity?
Are you implying it is all my fault?

ROFL!!
Wasn't it the church that scuttled the Equal Rights Amendment?
If you say so.. facts are pretty much irrelevant, anyway. Just throw out outrageous accusations, and see if they stick! It's the progressive Way! ;)
Christianity isn't even a blip on the radar except when it's inserting itself in lives where it is unwanted and unwelcome.
Why the hostility, if it is so irrelevant? And why keep pounding the phony narrative, about all these horrible 'Christians!', :eek:, who all want to control and oppress you!!?
Do you see yourself as a good will ambassador who makes Christianity seem more appealing?
I'll leave the caricaturing to you.. you seem to enjoy it.. :D
Welcome to Sunday school. Let's all bobble our heads now in prayer in unison. Repeat after me, "Our father, which ..."
Hey! You copied my 'Bobbleheads' imagery.. can't think for yourself, and have to copy me, to feel witty? :D
more outwardly religious people are, the more damaged it appears to be. There is a spectrum from not noticeably damaged to practically comatose - utterly unable to think
Lovely smear and caricature. Yes, that is the narrative, promoted by enemies of Christianity.. how can you call any of the list 'strawmen!', when you use them constantly?
You really don't like us, and you're here to verbally spank us, paradoxically,
Don't project your bias on me.
What accusations?
:rolleyes:
Really? You have made no accusations toward me, Christianity, or 'Christians!' in general?
You sound like Trump.
Is Trump the new Hitler? You get another smear by association! Jab 2 enemies with one snide comment! It is certainly more efficient! :D
you weren't interested, which is not a surprise. I imagine you see yourself as a goodwill ambassador for your faith, but you are having the opposite effect
you can project on me whatever you want. Deflecting with ad hom streams does not aid your cause, though.

And i am terribly sorry if the truth offends.
:shrug:
This is what is happening to Christianity. It's self-destructing. People like you are damaging it, not us.
Yes, so you keep saying... :rolleyes:
blaming others for your own faults and shortcomings.
I blame no one but myself, for my flaws. You seem to blame me for the 'bad pr' toward xtianity, or blame xtianity for producing horrible people.. like me. I'm sorry you feel this way, but that is just a phony propaganda meme.

Your projections of 'hate!', and the constant disparagement of Christianity (or me, personally), are indoctrinated onto a stereotypical boogie man. They are not real.
And why do you care? Are you not free to read your Bible and sing hymns to Jesus all day either way? Is your hoped-for salvation jeopardized?
Who says i care? I'm just here for interesting discussion. :shrug:
If God is tugging at you, or you feel smitten by conscience, that is between you and Him.

Why do you 'care!', if you correlate posting on forums with some deep, compassionate empathy?
 

Maximilian

Energetic proclaimer of Jehovah God's Kingdom.
As requested by a poster, i am listing a set of what i perceive to be caricatures and phony narratives about Christianity.

This assumes a specific, exact, historical definition of Christianity, as defined by the Founder.

1. Christians hate science.
2. Christianity is responsible for all wars, exploitation, and oppression.
3. Christianity is the same as islam, but not as peaceful.
4. Muslims would love us, and live in harmony, if they weren't triggered by the hateful Christians.
5. American Christians want a theocracy.
6. American Christians want to ban all books but the bible.
7. The bible is the source of all hate and oppression in the world.
8. Christians want to force everyone to believe, and go to church.
9. Christians hate atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, muslims, Hindus, and any who do not believe as they do.
10. America was founded by irreligious skeptics, who saw the evil of Christianity and tried to keep them from meddling in the lives of others.
11. Christians want to control and manipulate everyone.
12. Christians cannot reason or follow science, as they are blinded by their superstitions.
13. The bible is full of errors.
14. The bible has changed many times.
15. Hitler was a Christian.
16. Christianity is an opiate for humanity, squashing free expression.

There are more, and i am sure the helpful posters here will chime in with additional false narratives. We can debate the merits of each charge, to see if there is any validity, or if they are bigoted smears, from a competing ideology.

I look forward to a civil and informative discussion.


1. Christians only hate mendacious science such as Abiogenesis and the GTOE.

2. Catholics, Protestants, Baha'i, Adventists, Born-Agains, Buddhists, Non-Denominationalists, Shinto, Evangelicals, Baptists, the Orthodox, Hindus, Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Muslims, Pentecostals, Mormons, etc., etc. are responsible for all wars, exploitation, and oppression, not Christians since such conduct is Anti-Christian.

3. Christianity is not the same as Islam simply because these do not worship the God of Christ, Jehovah.

4. Muslims wouldn't love us and live in harmony because they can't even love or live in harmony with other Muslims.

5. All Christians long for Jehovah God's theocractic government under Christ Jesus. (Matthew 6:9)

6. Religious fanatics want to ban all books but the bible.

7. The Bible is against all hate and oppression in the world.

8. Christians encourage everyone to believe in Jehovah God and build a close personal relationship with him.

9. Christians disagree with atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, muslims, Hindus, and any who do not believe as they do.

10. America was founded by religious refugees, who saw the evil of Catholicism and Protestatism and tried to keep them from meddling in their lives.

11. Christians respect everyone's Free Will because "Jehovah is the Spirit, and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom." - 2 Corinthians 3:17.

12. Christians reason and follow science as they love truth and hate lies.

13. The Bible is demonstrably infallible.

14. The Bible is the most well attested written work in all of human history.

15. Hitler was Catholic, not Christian.

16. Christianity is an salve for humanity, giving real hope to all those without.
 
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Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
1. Christians only hate mendacious science such as Abiogenesis and the GTOE.
How is that science "mendacious"? And why do Christians hate the GigaTon of Oil Equivalent?

Gtoe - Gigatonne Of Oil Equivalent. Conversion Chart / Energy Converter, Oil Energy Equivalent

2. Catholics, Protestants, Baha'i, Adventists, Born-Agains, Buddhists, Non-Denominationalists, Shinto, Evangelicals, Baptists, the Orthodox, Hindus, Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Muslims, Pentecostals, Mormons, etc., etc. are responsible for all wars, exploitation, and oppression, not Christians since such conduct is Anti-Christian.

Sorry, but those all are Christian sects. This implies that you are in some sort of cult since in my experience only cults make this error.

3. Christianity is not the same as Islam simply because these do not worship the God of Christ, Jehovah.

Actually they merely give him another name. Just as his name was not "Jehovah" according to the Jews. That name first appeared in the 1500's:
Jehovah - Wikipedia

4. Muslims wouldn't love us and live in harmony because they can't even love or live in harmony with other Muslims.

The same can be said of Christians. Of course you do not understand that since you used a No True Scotsman fallacy earlier on.

5. All Christians long for Jehovah God's theocractic government under Christ Jesus. (Matthew 6:9)

Umm, no. See above.

6. Religious fanatics want to ban all books but the bible.

I would say that some religious fanatics want to do that.

7. The Bible is against all hate and oppression in the world.

You are kidding, right? Or have you never read that book? I would start with the Old Testament.

8. Christians encourage everyone to believe in Jehovah God and build a close personal relationship with him.

Why do you insist on using the term "Jehovah"? Again this is cultic behavior.

9. Christians disagree with atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, muslims, Hindus, and any who do not believe as they do.

That could be claimed about almost everyone in general.

10. America was founded by religious refugees, who saw the evil of Catholicism and Protestatism and tried to keep them from meddling in the lives of others.

Only partially true. In fact that is a distorted claim. The Pilgrims for example were not religious refugees. They were zealots that had a bit of a cultic religion themselves. They were well accepted in Amsterdam but were worried that their children would adopt the Christianity of their hosts and drop their own beliefs.

11. Christians respect everyone's Free Will because "Jehovah is the Spirit, and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom." - 2 Corinthians 3:17.

Some Christians do this. But it is nice to hear that you are pro-choice

12. Christians reason and follow science as they love truth and hate lies.

So now you are saying that you are not a Christian. I am so confusedo_O

13. The Bible is infallible.

Except for all of the errors, self contradictions and bad morals.

14. The Bible is the most well attested written work in all of human history.

Umm, no.

15. Hitler was Catholic, not Christian.

Now you have contradicted yourself once again.

16. Christianity is an salve for humanity, giving real hope to all those without.

What sort of "hope"? What if one does not need any "hope"?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Finding fuel, or even making it up, is no problem for the anti-christian propagandists out to smear Christianity with lies and false caricatures

You are the one doing the most harm to the reputation of Christianity. I've already explained to you that your endless repetition of your false narrative that there is an anti-Christian conspiracy headed by progressive indoctrinees has been roundly rejected.

I see the opposite. I see intelligent and compelling arguments against your claims that you are unable to rebut.

You are the indoctrinee. Your audience is mostly critical thinkers. You're unarmed here. These people are not going to let you stick an idea of your choosing into their heads by uncritically and passively accepting an unsupported but continually repeated idea. If you can't present a well-reasoned and evidenced argument, you can't change such minds.

Correlating me with some demonized scapegoat of 'horrible xtians!', to justify outrage and bigotry?

What outrage and bigotry? People are telling you why they disagree with you, which is pretty much what a discussion board is for. You call that hostility, smears, and distortion.

That's not a good look for you any more than it is for Trump. It's not sympathetic. You accept zero responsibility for the role Christians and Christianity plays in its decline and poor public relations in the West.

This changes from day to day. Yesterday, they were 'all mostly true!'

False narrative. Your claims in the OP have never been called mostly true by anybody but you.

i should be flattered by the idea that my words are so incisive that they are turned around and thrown back.

You flatter yourself.

Your words are so lacking in insight that you repeatedly make embarrassing observations that apply to you, such as that others are spreading false narratives when that is the purpose of this thread - to spread your false narrative. You say others present no evidence, but that describes you, not them. You refer to indoctrination, but religious faith is the very definition of indoctrination.

I still am waiting for an actual evidence based argumen

You don't see the evidence shown to you, which means that there is no burden of proof with you. For there to be a burden of proof, one has to care whether he is believed, and one has to be dealing with a person capable of recognizing a compelling argument and being willing to be convinced by one. That's not possible with the faith-based thinker.

Have you even researched this false assertion ("There simply isn't enough water on earth for that to happen, and if there were, the world would still be flooded.")?

Yes. This is from a previous post:

What volume of water must be added to the earth to flood all of its land. We do that by comparing the volume of the unflooded earth to the volume of the earth with ocean levels raised to above the highest mountain, Mt. Everest, which stands about five-and-a-half miles high.

[1] The mean radius of the unflooded earth is about 6370 km http://en.wikipedi a.org/wiki/Earth_radius

[2] The volume of a sphere is =(4/3)(pi)( r^3)

[3] Thus the volume of the unflooded earth is =(4/3)(3.14)(6370) ^3 = 1.08214805 × 10^12 = 1,082,148,050,000 km3

[4] The height of Mt. Everest is 8.85 km (5.50 miles, 29029 feet) Mount Everest Height - How Tall is Mt Everest - How High is Mount Everest - Mt Everest Elevation

[5] Volume of flooded earth =(4/3)(3.14)(6378. 85)^3 = 1.08666469 × 10^12 = 1,086,664,690,000 km3 [Notice that the radius has been increased from 6370 to 6378.85]

[6] The difference = about 4,500,000,000 km3 of water that must be added to the earth to cover Everest. Can that much water fall in 40 days?

[7] Forty days is 960 hours. For the water to rise 29029 feet in 960 hours, 30.2 feet of water must fall ever hour over every square inch of the earth at once, or twice as much over half of the earth at once. Imagine a shower filling up a three story building in an hour. How hard would the water need to be coming out to do that? And this needs to happen for almost six weeks nonstop. Can rain do that? Could a wooden ark withstand that? Could its passengers avoid drowning? How much water can the atmosphere provide?

[8] “About 3,100 mi3 (12,900 km3) of water, mostly in the form of water vapor, is in the atmosphere at any one time. If it all fell as precipitation at once, the Earth would be covered with only about 1 inch of water.” http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/earthhowmuch.html Thus the atmosphere can provide about 12,900 of the 4,500,000,000 cubic kilometers of water needed, or about 1 inch of the five miles needed. What would happen to the marine life if you added this much fresh water to the oceans? [8] The volume of the oceans is about 1,300,000,000 km3 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean

[9] If you added another 4,500,000,000 cubic kilometers of fresh water - in excess of a quadrupling of the total - the salinity of the oceans would fall to about 22.4% of its present level, killing virtually all marine life. And where would this water come from?

[10] The total amount of water on earth is about 1,386,000,000 cubic kilometers https://gizmodo.com/all-the-water-on-earth-5909889

So, the water needed to flood the land completely - about four times as much water as the earth presently holds in all forms including oceans, ice, lakes, rivers, ground water, atmospheric water, and the water in living things - could neither appear nor disappear without magic, could not be contained in the atmosphere and fall as rain, would fall like a waterfall everywhere at once destroying the ark and drowning its inhabitants if it did, and would kill all non-freshwater living aquatic life to boot.

Can you refute that?

How about your contradictory research? Please present it.

Just kidding. I know you have nothing but your faith in a holy book. I just wanted to put to the lie your false narrative that nobody wants to present facts, evidence, or reasoned arguments to you - just progressive indoctrination that changes every day to see what sticks.

Well, these are my facts, evidence and argument. Where are yours? Where's your rebuttal to the actual argument made? You have none, right?

me: "Why do you suppose that so many people dislike or disrespect Christianity?"

Are you implying it is all my fault?

No. I've already told you whose fault it is. Part of the fault is yours. You're damaging Christianity right now. Christianity collectively is making itself seem less respectable and less relevant. I've tried to help you personally see how you do damage, but you don't trust my intentions or accept my judgment even with there being so much evidence that you have turned the thread against you. How many people have rebuked your debating habits?

I've also explained to you that I have been evaluation the intellect, demeanor, and character of Christians on these message boards, and have seen a spectrum ranging from people that seem unharmed by their faith to those who seem very damaged - people that can't think well and are willing to accept hateful and immoral beliefs from the church. You're a data point in that study like every other Christian whose posts I encounter. You didn't do as badly as the anti-evolution apologists, most of which are utter train wrecks. You're a little more articulate, and have a decent disposition, but couldn't make compelling arguments, didn't address the arguments made to you except to dismiss them, and did more projecting than I usually. You also seem discontent.

Now please answer the question asked.

Why the hostility, if it is so irrelevant?

You're imagining hostility.

You have made no accusations toward me, Christianity, or 'Christians!' in general?

I have contradicted you and Christianity where I disagreed. Isn't that what we do on religious message boards? If that's what you mean by accusations, then I guess I'm guilty, but I don't consider those accusations. For example, when I say you project, or that you are damaging Christianity, those are observations sincerely believed and constructively offered. If I say you stole my wallet, that may also be sincerely believed, but not constructively offered. That's what I mean by an accusation. It would be an indictment of your character.

IANS: "And why do you care? Are you not free to read your Bible and sing hymns to Jesus all day either way? Is your hoped-for salvation jeopardized?"

Who says i care?

You do, albeit not explicitly. You have an apologetics agenda. You're here to help the church with its terrible public relations disaster by propagating memes of persecution and bigotry.

You make the same mistake many apologists make. They think that only their explicit message is coming through, unaware of the unspoken message sent that informs the reader or listener of whether he or she considers the source competent to discuss the matter at hand, any unstated agenda showing through, does the source seem trustworthy, etc.. In the philosophy of argumentation (rhetorics), these are referred to as the logos and ethos respectively. The mistake is to think that you only sent the former message because you didn't explicitly state the latter.

If the world were to become totally flat and the oceans distributed themselves evenly over the earth's surface, the water would be approximately 2 miles deep at every point.

Did you mean perfectly spherical? The earth is not flat.

And why did you think that that was relevant? Is this what you mean by providing evidence that the global flood occurred as described in the Bible? Is this part of some rebuttal to something previously posted?
 
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Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
As requested by a poster, i am listing a set of what i perceive to be caricatures and phony narratives about Christianity.

This assumes a specific, exact, historical definition of Christianity, as defined by the Founder.

1. Christians hate science.
Never heard this one. I think some Christians deny science all the time...even while using it.
2. Christianity is responsible for all wars, exploitation, and oppression.
Never heard this one,either. Christianity is responsible for some wars, religion in general, for even more. But in no case ALL.
3. Christianity is the same as islam, but not as peaceful.
I think the reverse is true (relatively speaking)
4. Muslims would love us, and live in harmony, if they weren't triggered by the hateful Christians.
.Well, their goal is Allah everywhere. For Christians the goal is Yahweh everywhere. You can't both be right....but you can both be wrong.
5. American Christians want a theocracy.
Some of them do. Beginning with passing laws based upon religious beliefs. They just don't call it that.
6. American Christians want to ban all books but the bible.
I have been an atheist all of my life and in all my debating and conversing with atheists and Christians alike, I have never once heard this accusation. But I am willing to accept that somebody somewhere at some time in the history of the world may have said this.
7. The bible is the source of all hate and oppression in the world.
Again, I have never heard this statement made. I have heard Christianity being accused of specific things, like subjugation of women, racism, a failure to reject slavery as depicted in the Bible, and so forth.
8. Christians want to force everyone to believe, and go to church.
Force is the wrong word. Badger is appropriate in some cases. Just keep it inside the churches and you should hear no complaints. They are built with tax free money, so everyone else is subsidizing your dogma, anyway whether they want to or not.
9. Christians hate atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, muslims, Hindus, and any who do not believe as they do.
I have heard and read some that say that. I don't think it is representative at all.
10. America was founded by irreligious skeptics, who saw the evil of Christianity and tried to keep them from meddling in the lives of others.
Where are you getting this stuff? There was a mixture of beliefs...Christian, deist, agnostic, atheist.
11. Christians want to control and manipulate everyone.
It does feel that way. "Believe what I believe or be tortured for an eternity". That is common to most religions, though.
12. Christians cannot reason or follow science, as they are blinded by their superstitions.
There are many prominent christian scientists and thinkers. They only seem to abandon reason and skepticism when addressing their religious beliefs.
13. The bible is full of errors.
Most can be explained or at least rationalized. Since Scripture is open to endless interpretation by Christians, it's hard to nail any of it down.
14. The bible has changed many times.
We have no original copies, plus it was all oral before it was written down. There probably is no "original" version. It is a collection of stories pulled together by a group of men into one book. That being said, I can read a passage to successive Christians and get dozens of different interpretations...so?????
15. Hitler was a Christian.
Possibly. He certainly invoked the Christian god in his speeches. And he was a Catholic in his younger years. His troopers had "God with us" on their belt buckles. It is possible that he simply wanted Christians to follow along with his extermination of the Jews. And many did.
16. Christianity is an opiate for humanity, squashing free expression.
The quote was from Karl Marx and he was simply making the point that it made the masses more sedate and controllable by those in power. It does.

It would be helpful to all if you would provide sources for your assertions.......


There are more, and i am sure the helpful posters here will chime in with additional false narratives. We can debate the merits of each charge, to see if there is any validity, or if they are bigoted smears, from a competing ideology.

I look forward to a civil and informative discussion.
 
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