Was Lewis Carroll a Paedophile?

The Reverend Bob · Jun 15, 2019

Terry Sampson said:
Evidence of what? That the OP author's point is that Conservative upper-class British had (and may still have) propensities to paedophilia? Ok, so technically the Reverend Bob didn't actually say that. He said that that possibility "is a mystery that needs to be resolved". So, did The Reverend even actually ask that question? Gee, I dunno ...

From the OP:

... there seems to be evidence that Lewis Carroll ... may have indeed been a pedophile. Some questions must be answered.

Why was he so politically conservative?

So was Lewis Carroll a paedophile? You be the judge. And remember people that Carroll was also the product of the British upper class school system.

I connect The Reverend's dots, to wit: "Question that needs to be resolved - Lewis Carroll; conservative, British, upperclass, and possible paedophophile?"

I also reason that, if The Reverend didn't think those dots are not connected, he wouldn't have drawn them.

When I responded with: "Christian support for Trump and PopeaDope's mental illness are mysteries that need to be resolved. Lewis Carroll's fondness for little girls may be a mystery for some, but it doesn't need to be resolved", he called me a "cultural philistine"and essentially told me to buzz off.

Then, when I responded: "Lighten up, Reverend. I got your point: Conservative upper-class British had (and may still have) propensities to paedophilia. The really big mystery, IMO, is which of those factors promotes those propensities the most. " ["The really big mystery" being the most ridiculous mystery I could think of at the moment.] The Reverend answered: "That is something that indeed needs to be investigated and it as to why I included it in my series of questions about the alleged paedophilia of Lewis Carroll."

Before you quibble over the quality of my comments in this thread, I think you ought to dedicate your attention and efforts to ascertaining whether or not The Reverend thinks the dots that I see constitute (a) a mystery and (b) that needs to be solved.

On the other hand, if you're asking me for evidence that conservative, upperclass Brits had (and may still have) paedophile propensities, you're asking the wrong person. The Reverend, IMHO, seems to think that at least one did and that those propensities were not a one-person phenomenon.

This is pretty accurate. I have other reasons to believe that there was (and may still be) a culture of paedophilia in Britain is based on the evidence that a vast majority of British erotica written during the Victorian era (such as The Pearl a Journal of Facetiae and Voluptuous Reading) was chiefly centered on the sexualization of underage girls. It was the upper class who could afford these publications and it was upper class men who publish such things

The Pearl (magazine) - Wikipedia

The Reverend Bob · Jun 15, 2019

David T said:
Dont you know how to read either? Thats pitiful. Should i draw stick figures?

Polymath understood exactly what context my statement was made in. I didnt have to draw pictures for him. Now i know factually poly is very very very smart.

If you haven't noticed; the subject is Lewis Carroll

SomeRandom · Jun 15, 2019

The Reverend Bob said:
Aha! Further evidence that Lewis Carroll was indeed a paedophile! He was throughout his life rather contemptuous of adult women in positions of authority and of strong character. So he would never be able to develop any attraction towards them and probably subverted his desire for female companionship towards prepubescent schoolgirls

Dude, he lived during the Victorian era. Most blokes back then weren’t particularly fond of strong females in authority or those of strong character. I mean I’m sure some were supportive, but still. There’s some arguments to be made for or against, sure.
But that was either satirical or straight up the worst one I’ve ever heard.

The Reverend Bob · Jun 15, 2019

SomeRandom said:
Dude, he lived during the Victorian era. Most blokes back then weren’t particularly fond of strong females in authority or those of strong character. I mean I’m sure some were supportive, but still. There’s some arguments to be made for or against, sure.
But that was either satirical or straight up the worst one I’ve ever heard.

I think there is something there, I do believe he had some resentment for his mother. In one letter to her, he complains that he is feeling despair in regards to certain "nighttime rackets" going on at Rugby. In one link I gave earlier it was shown that there was a culture of pederasty going on in Rugby. He begged her to let him go home and she refused him, this could have left him with a particular distaste for adult women in authority because one deny him the safety he needed and that person was his mother

David T · Jun 15, 2019

The Reverend Bob said:
If you haven't noticed; the subject is Lewis Carroll

I Draw picture.
i reference statement of poster "we no longer have information". I say that apsect contradicts parts of physics. Poly says no it dont. I say ok quantum vs classical contradiction. You right partially poly. He no reply but as usual. Poly correct.

I cant literally cant type more slowly.

The Reverend Bob · Jun 15, 2019

David T said:
I Draw picture.
i reference statement of poster "we no longer have information". I say that apsect contradicts parts of physics. Poly says no it dont. I say ok quantum vs classical contradiction. You right partially poly. He no reply but as usual. Poly correct.

I cant literally cant type more slowly.

The subject is Lewis Carroll

SomeRandom · Jun 15, 2019

The Reverend Bob said:
I think there is something there, I do believe he had some resentment for his mother. In one letter to her, he complains that he is feeling despair in regards to certain "nighttime rackets" going on at Rugby. In one link I gave earlier it was shown that there was a culture of pederasty going on in Rugby. He begged her to let him go home and she refused him, this could have left him with a particular distaste for adult women in authority because one deny him the safety he needed and that person was his mother

This is starting to become a little “conspiracy theory” esque.
You’re putting him on the couch now, like some wannabe Freud.
I mean it’s fun to speculate. But I’ve seen no concrete evidence, one way or the other.
But for the sake of argument, sure he developed some Freudian-esque like resentment towards his mother. And?
He hated his mother and women in authority. And?
How does that lead to one being a pedophile, exactly?

Dodgson isn’t even one of my top 20 picks from my childhood either.
Just seems a tad tasteless to drag his name through the mud when he’s been dead for over a century and can’t defend himself.
At least with other speculations, the implications are usually superficial and minor.

SomeRandom · Jun 15, 2019

The Reverend Bob said:
The subject is Lewis Carroll

Oh come on, mate. Even I (mostly) understood David T and Poly’s exchange.
Besides, given Mr Dodgson’s mathematical prowess, discussing him in terms of physics seems oddly apt. If a bit alienating to us idiots.

The Reverend Bob · Jun 15, 2019

SomeRandom said:
This is starting to become a little “conspiracy theory” esque.
You’re putting him on the couch now, like some wannabe Freud.
I mean it’s fun to speculate. But I’ve seen no concrete evidence, one way or the other.
Dodgson isn’t even one of my top 20 picks from my childhood either.
Just seems a tad tasteless to drag his name through the mud when he’s been dead for over a century and can’t defend himself.
At least with other speculations, the implications are usually superficial and minor.

His letters to his mother from Rugby are factual, something was going on at Rugby and it deeply disturbed him. He wanted to return home but his mother refused him and afterward his correspondence to her dropped.

There is loads of evidence that the so-called "Spartan Tradition" was part of Rugby's culture. Something happened to Lewis Carroll there, something that left scars like his notorious stutter.

SomeRandom · Jun 15, 2019

The Reverend Bob said:
His letters to his mother from Rugby are factual, something was going on at Rugby and it deeply disturbed him. He wanted to return home but his mother refused him and afterward his correspondence to her dropped.

There is loads of evidence that the so-called "Spartan Tradition" was part of Rugby's culture. Something happened to Lewis Carroll there, something that left scars like his notorious stutter.

Perhaps. That still doesn’t translate into “omg he was totally a pedo” though.

Glaurung · Jun 15, 2019

The Reverend Bob said:
Why was he obsessed with photographing and drawing nude children?

On this point, I remember reading that nude children were a common theme in Victorian era art. So possessing such images would not have been seen as automatically suspicious in his time.

exchemist · Jun 16, 2019

Terry Sampson said:
Evidence of what? That the OP author's point is that Conservative upper-class British had (and may still have) propensities to paedophilia? Ok, so technically the Reverend Bob didn't actually say that. He said that that possibility "is a mystery that needs to be resolved". So, did The Reverend even actually ask that question? Gee, I dunno ...

From the OP:

... there seems to be evidence that Lewis Carroll ... may have indeed been a pedophile. Some questions must be answered.

Why was he so politically conservative?

So was Lewis Carroll a paedophile? You be the judge. And remember people that Carroll was also the product of the British upper class school system.

I connect The Reverend's dots, to wit: "Question that needs to be resolved - Lewis Carroll, conservative, British, upperclass, and possible paedophophile?"

I also reason that, if The Reverend didn't think those dots are not connected, he wouldn't have drawn them.

When I responded with: "Christian support for Trump and PopeaDope's mental illness are mysteries that need to be resolved. Lewis Carroll's fondness for little girls may be a mystery for some, but it doesn't need to be resolved", he called me a "cultural philistine"and essentially told me to buzz off.

Then, when I responded: "Lighten up, Reverend. I got your point: Conservative upper-class British had (and may still have) propensities to paedophilia. The really big mystery, IMO, is which of those factors promotes those propensities the most. " ["The really big mystery" being the most ridiculous mystery I could think of at the moment.] The Reverend answered: "That is something that indeed needs to be investigated and it as to why I included it in my series of questions about the alleged paedophilia of Lewis Carroll."

Before you quibble over the quality of my comments in this thread, I think you ought to dedicate your attention and efforts to ascertaining whether or not The Reverend thinks the dots that I see constitute (a) a mystery and (b) that needs to be solved.

On the other hand, if you're asking me for evidence that conservative, upperclass Brits had (and may still have) paedophile propensities, you're asking the wrong person. The Reverend, IMHO, seems to think that at least one did and that those propensities were not a one-person phenomenon.

Thanks for the clarification.

exchemist · Jun 16, 2019

Musing Bassist said:
On this point, I remember reading that nude children were a common theme in Victorian era art. So possessing such images would not have been seen as automatically suspicious in his time.

Correct.

(I have posted two links on this thread which make this point.)

exchemist · Jun 16, 2019

The Reverend Bob said:
This is pretty accurate. I have other reasons to believe that there was (and may still be) a culture of paedophilia in Britain is based on the evidence that a vast majority of British erotica written during the Victorian era (such as The Pearl a Journal of Facetiae and Voluptuous Reading) was chiefly centered on the sexualization of underage girls. It was the upper class who could afford these publications and it was upper class men who publish such things

The Pearl (magazine) - Wikipedia

There is nothing in the linked article about paedophilia.

Mock Turtle · Jun 16, 2019

The Reverend Bob said:
The young lady in the photograph does look rather uncomfortable. I wonder if she is indeed acting the part or is in fact uncomfortable within his presence. Another mystery to be resolved.

A photograph can often convey a multitude of meanings, especially where it might be ambiguous or where it captures transitions in expression, so I wouldn't count on anything one might project into this picture. A programme on British TV some years ago about Balthus seemed to show this girl had no problems posing for him. I think she did pose nude too. It's a tricky issue.

Many females have expressed having no issues posing nude for photographs whilst many have later claimed abuse - and where some photographers have been convicted of such (Ovenden) or escaped via suicide (Hamilton). The effects of public opinion (often condemnatory - especially these days) and the maturity aspect should also be taken into account - did they know enough to consent at that age and/or recognise an issue later? Also, as in the case of children photographed nude by a parent, there might be an obvious case for not wanting to cause problems about doing such.

As for Lewis Carroll - well he did appear to have a fondness for kissing very young girls - admitted in some of his writing - and he did apparently photograph a number of girls naked or scantily dressed, not just Alice Liddell. He also destroyed, or had destroyed, some photographs that might or might not have been evidence as to any unseemly attraction.

I think it likely that he was a paedophile, but one who didn't go further than kissing. Abhorrent to many perhaps, it seems that some paedophiles (those within an appropriate definition of paedophilia) share a love towards younger girls (and boys) that most parents would have. Unfortunately they also might have an unhealthy sexual interest too - which is what the public almost unanimously only sees. And many of course just sexually abuse children because they want to. I suspect Carroll was more likely of the first sort and had sufficient control not to go further.

The Reverend Bob · Jun 16, 2019

exchemist said:
There is nothing in the linked article about paedophilia.

But there is plenty within the pages of The Pearl, paedophilia is a major theme

The Reverend Bob · Jun 16, 2019

Mock Turtle said:
A photograph can often convey a multitude of meanings, especially where it might be ambiguous or where it captures transitions in expression, so I wouldn't count on anything one might project into this picture. A programme on British TV some years ago about Balthus seemed to show this girl had no problems posing for him. I think she did pose nude too. It's a tricky issue.

Many females have expressed having no issues posing nude for photographs whilst many have later claimed abuse - and where some photographers have been convicted of such (Ovenden) or escaped via suicide (Hamilton). The effects of public opinion (often condemnatory - especially these days) and the maturity aspect should also be taken into account - did they know enough to consent at that age and/or recognise an issue later? Also, as in the case of children photographed nude by a parent, there might be an obvious case for not wanting to cause problems about doing such.

As for Lewis Carroll - well he did appear to have a fondness for kissing very young girls - admitted in some of his writing - and he did apparently photograph a number of girls naked or scantily dressed, not just Alice Liddell. He also destroyed, or had destroyed, some photographs that might or might not have been evidence as to any unseemly attraction.

I think it likely that he was a paedophile, but one who didn't go further than kissing. Abhorrent to many perhaps, it seems that some paedophiles (those within an appropriate definition of paedophilia) share a love towards younger girls (and boys) that most parents would have. Unfortunately they also might have an unhealthy sexual interest too - which is what the public almost unanimously only sees. And many of course just sexually abuse children because they want to. I suspect Carroll was more likely of the first sort and had sufficient control not to go further.

I don't believe he ever acting any desire other than the photographs but I do lean towards that he might have been a paedophile. Given that the evidence is circumstantial I cannot conclude that he was obviously a paedophile

exchemist · Jun 16, 2019

The Reverend Bob said:
But there is plenty within the pages of The Pearl, paedophilia is a major theme

Then why link an article that says nothing about this? What evidence do you have? And "paedophilia" by whose criteria, bearing in mind the attitudes towards sexual maturity in that epoch? (To this day the age of consent is as low as 14, in major western countries.)

And, seeing as this magazine also apparently - according to the link you did provide - included bestiality and incest, it seems apparent that it was fairly extreme pornography. In which case what does it prove about Victorian society, as compared to today's, in which child pornography is regularly the subject of frequent police investigations?

Milton Platt · Jun 16, 2019

The Reverend Bob said:
I am sorry if I am ruining your childhood but there seems to be evidence that Lewis Carroll the author of the children's classic made into a well known Disney film called Alice in Wonderland may have indeed been a pedophile. Some questions must be answered.

What was obsession with Alice Liddell?
Why did he write what could be construed as rather florid love poetry to her?
Why was he obsessed with photographing and drawing nude children?
Why is he not known to have developed a meaningful adult relationship with an adult woman?
Why was he so politically conservative?
Why did the Liddell family refuse to let Alice go alone with Carroll to the lakehouse for a picnic?
Why did the Liddell family break off with Carroll?
Where are the missing diaries and what did they contain?
Why was he refused ordination into the Anglican Church?

So was Lewis Carroll a paedophile? You be the judge. And remember people that Carroll was also the product of the British upper class school system.

The answer is "possibly" but the evidence seems to all be circumstantial. For me, it doesn't matter much one way or the other, since he is long dead. I recognize that there is an interest for history buffs to get the details right. Perhaps more information will come to light eventually. A more interesting question is not was he a pedophile, but did he act on it.

Saint Frankenstein · Jun 16, 2019

He probably was. There's a pedophile holiday called Alice Day that is named after his relationship with her.

Was Lewis Carroll a Paedophile?

Was Lewis Carroll a Paedophile?

Obviously a paedophile

Might have been a paedophile

Might not have been a paedophile

Obviously not a paedophile

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