Frank Goad
Well-Known Member
isaiah 57:2 And John 14:2 and 2 corinthians 5:8-9.What does it make you think?
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Question for all religions on here.About things i found out about the afterlife
- Thread starter Frank Goad
- Start date
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
The afterlife is pretty much what we're living right now, so meh, the afterlife is okay so far. Can't speak for others who also wouldn't disagree that the afterlife also sucks raw eggs.
For the rest maybe it's pure uptopia.
Not sure about Isaiah 57:2 I think it just says the righteous find peace in death, but John 14:2 is saying the righteous have a place in the mansions of heaven prepared for them by Jesus.
2 Corinthians 5:8-9 says the workers of Christ prefer to be out of the body in the presence of Jesus than in the body in His abscence.
Kind regards
whirlingmerc
Well-Known Member
Ultimately the goal is God and fellowship with God as treasure - to glorify God and enjoy Him forever.
It makes me think you are quoting texts from the bible. Was that a trick question?
Frank Goad
Well-Known Member
No.It wasn't a trick question.I wanted you to read the passages i listed.And give feedback on all of them.
You didnt say that. And why would anyone need any texts at all in regards to that?
You might as well have asked me to read about what i am experiencing as i sit on mt neahakanie. Which book must i read? How can i possibly understand my own direct experience without a book?!! Thank god for books and them telling me how to think about my own direct experience. Or i would be lost and come up with crazy ideas like its total bs to start with a book in regards to my own Direct experience. Heaven Forbid, that would be heresy to orthodoxy.
Frank Goad
Well-Known Member
I read people die and rest in their beds in Isaiah 57:2.That reminded me of the mansions in John 14:2.Also 2 corinthians 5:8-9.Made me think when we die we go straight there.
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Hi @Frank Goad ;
Just as has been remarked, i also, can't really tell the context of your question, but, thought I would add my thoughts to your question.
1) Jewish Masoretic Hebrew 57:2 reads :
"He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness"
While Jewish LXX Greek reads :
“His Burial will be in peace. He has been raised out of their midst”
.
The Greek text seems to be a contrast of the righteous described in vs 1 and 2 from the surrounding verses that describe unrighteous individuals.
Vs 1 : “Behold how the just [one] perishes and no one considers the heart and just men are lifted away and not one considers [this]. For from [the] presence of injustice, the just [person] has been removed [“lifted away]”
Vs 2 : “His burial will be in peace. He has been removed [lifted] from out of the[ir] midst.”
The Greek word used for “burial” (ταφη) was thr greek word that referred to the dead body (i.e. a “mummy” or mummy "wrappings). In this context, the verse reminds me of the early Judeo-Christian doctrine of what happens to the body/mummy upon death. That is, the body is buried in the earth while the spirit rises out of the world of the unjust and evil (as in Eccl 12:7 - "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.") There isn’t enough context in this specific example for me to tell if this is what is being referred to or not.
2) John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
The ΝΑ-27 greek reads: εν τε οικια (home, house, property, etc) του πατρος μου μοναι (rooms, lodgings, etc) πολλαι εσιν ει δε μη, ειπον αν υμιν οτι πορευομαι ετοιμασαι τοπον υμιν.
For me, the meaning of Jesus’ μοναι depends upon the meaning of the Fathers’ οικια.
If the Fathers οικια, means “house” then I think the μοναι must then refer to "rooms" inside that house. “In my fathers house are many rooms”. This is how the text IS rendered in both Zondervan and NA-27 new testaments. However, one can certainly argue that οικια (typically referring to a "house"), in this case is “property” or “domain” depending upon the context.
If the text is referring to “my fathers domain”(or “property”, in this case, a “kingdom”, in the context of his “heaven”), then there can be many “mansions” there.
μονη, found in verse two IS used in just this way in vs 23 when Jesus and the Father will “make our home [lodging]” with him. In either case, the base concept, to me, is that the apostles (and “he who has my commandments and keeps them” vs21) are the ones who love him and who become qualified to live with Jesus and his Father in this specific context.
Irenaeus explains what this doctrine meant to the early Christians by saying : ““As the elders say, then will those who have been deemed worthy of an abode in heaven go there, while others will enjoy the delight of Paradise, and still others will possess the brightness of the city; for in every place the Savior will be seen, to the degree that those who see him are worthy. They say, moreover, that this is the distinction between the dwelling of those who bring forth an hundredfold, and those who bring forth sixtyfold, and those who bring forth thirtyfold : the first will be taken up into the heavens, and second will dwell in Paradise, and the third will inhabit the city. For this reason, therefore, our Lord has said, “In my Father’s house there are many rooms”; for all things are of God, who gives to all their appropriate dwelling...The elders, the disciples of the apostles, say that this is the order and arrangement of those who are being saved, and that they advance by such steps, and ascend through the Spirit to the Son, and through the Son to the Father, the Son finally yielding his work to the Father…” Irenaeus, Against Heresies #5 (some scholars claim Papias taught this to Irenaeus). That is to say not all dwelling in heaven is alike, some are in a greater state of blessedness than others.
The concept underlying many of these types of references have to do with the early claim that the heavenly abode of the righteous is a special place that is designed and prepared for such individual to live in . “But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.” Heb 11:16
3) 2 Cor 5:8-9 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
9 : θαρρουμεν δε και ευδοκουμεν μαλλον εκδημησαι εκ του σωματος και ενδημουντες προς τον Κθριον. Διο και φιλοτιμουμεθα ειτε ενδημουντες ειτε εκδημουντες ευαρεσταοι αυτω ειναι.
The normal use of Grek koine regarding εκδημηω is that of a residence. “εαν δε μεταβαινωμεν η εκδημωμεν μεταδωσωμεν (P Teb II. 316.20 (of a.d. 99) and again in BGU IV. 1197.7 (of b.c. 4) or PSI IV 410.3 of (iii/b.c.) though P Oxy I. 59.16 (of 292 a.d.) the translator (Moulton) renders it “departure). The underlying indication is the location of the personality and seems be saying that whether ones spirit resides INSIDE the living body, or leaves the body and resides with the Lord, the goal of such early Christians was to live the kind of life that would be acceptable to the Lord.
When Paul says “we are confident / have courage”, the belief underlying this confidence was partly the concept that what what one did was more important than where one was since what one did determined where one was (i.e. their ultimate state) after this life (e.g. A future eternity in a wonderful state was the priority).
One early description of the ancient Christian belief is as follows : ”Now this is the order of those who have kept the ways of the Most High, when they shall be separated from their mortal body.....First of all, they shall see with great joy the glory of him who receives them, for they shall have rest in seven orders. The first order, because they have striven with great effort to overcome the evil thought which was formed with them, that it might not lead them astray from life into death. The second order, because they see the perplexity in which the souls of the ungodly wander, and the punishment that waits them. The third order, they see the witness which he who formed them bears concerning them, that while they were alive they kept the Law which was given them in trust. The fourth order, they understand the rest which they now enjoy, being gathered into their chambers and guarded by angels in profound quiet, and the glory which awaits them in the last days. The fifth order, they rejoice that they have now escaped what is mortal, and shall inherit what is to come; and besides they see the straits and toil from which they have been delivered, and the spacious liberty which they are to receive and enjoy in immortality. The sixth order, when it is shown to them how their face is to shine like the sun, and how they are to be made like the light of the stars, being incorruptible from then on . The seventh order, which is greater than all that have been mentioned, because they shall rejoice with boldness, and shall be confident without confusion, and shall be glad without fear, for they hasten to behold the face of him whom they served in life and from whom they are to receive their reward when glorified.. Fourth Book of Ezra 7:88-99:
IF one believed in such an afterlife, THEN the priority was to make sure they were able to attain THAT state, rather than to seek the comforts of this temporary life. There are multiple descriptions of the early Judeo-Christian beliefs regarding heaven and all seem to contain a pattern of peace and contentment.
While such early descriptions may be correct or not, these are my thoughts about these specific scriptures.
Good luck coming to your own models and beliefs.
Clear
τωνεδρω
Just as has been remarked, i also, can't really tell the context of your question, but, thought I would add my thoughts to your question.
1) Jewish Masoretic Hebrew 57:2 reads :
"He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness"
While Jewish LXX Greek reads :
“His Burial will be in peace. He has been raised out of their midst”
.
The Greek text seems to be a contrast of the righteous described in vs 1 and 2 from the surrounding verses that describe unrighteous individuals.
Vs 1 : “Behold how the just [one] perishes and no one considers the heart and just men are lifted away and not one considers [this]. For from [the] presence of injustice, the just [person] has been removed [“lifted away]”
Vs 2 : “His burial will be in peace. He has been removed [lifted] from out of the[ir] midst.”
The Greek word used for “burial” (ταφη) was thr greek word that referred to the dead body (i.e. a “mummy” or mummy "wrappings). In this context, the verse reminds me of the early Judeo-Christian doctrine of what happens to the body/mummy upon death. That is, the body is buried in the earth while the spirit rises out of the world of the unjust and evil (as in Eccl 12:7 - "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.") There isn’t enough context in this specific example for me to tell if this is what is being referred to or not.
2) John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
The ΝΑ-27 greek reads: εν τε οικια (home, house, property, etc) του πατρος μου μοναι (rooms, lodgings, etc) πολλαι εσιν ει δε μη, ειπον αν υμιν οτι πορευομαι ετοιμασαι τοπον υμιν.
For me, the meaning of Jesus’ μοναι depends upon the meaning of the Fathers’ οικια.
If the Fathers οικια, means “house” then I think the μοναι must then refer to "rooms" inside that house. “In my fathers house are many rooms”. This is how the text IS rendered in both Zondervan and NA-27 new testaments. However, one can certainly argue that οικια (typically referring to a "house"), in this case is “property” or “domain” depending upon the context.
If the text is referring to “my fathers domain”(or “property”, in this case, a “kingdom”, in the context of his “heaven”), then there can be many “mansions” there.
μονη, found in verse two IS used in just this way in vs 23 when Jesus and the Father will “make our home [lodging]” with him. In either case, the base concept, to me, is that the apostles (and “he who has my commandments and keeps them” vs21) are the ones who love him and who become qualified to live with Jesus and his Father in this specific context.
Irenaeus explains what this doctrine meant to the early Christians by saying : ““As the elders say, then will those who have been deemed worthy of an abode in heaven go there, while others will enjoy the delight of Paradise, and still others will possess the brightness of the city; for in every place the Savior will be seen, to the degree that those who see him are worthy. They say, moreover, that this is the distinction between the dwelling of those who bring forth an hundredfold, and those who bring forth sixtyfold, and those who bring forth thirtyfold : the first will be taken up into the heavens, and second will dwell in Paradise, and the third will inhabit the city. For this reason, therefore, our Lord has said, “In my Father’s house there are many rooms”; for all things are of God, who gives to all their appropriate dwelling...The elders, the disciples of the apostles, say that this is the order and arrangement of those who are being saved, and that they advance by such steps, and ascend through the Spirit to the Son, and through the Son to the Father, the Son finally yielding his work to the Father…” Irenaeus, Against Heresies #5 (some scholars claim Papias taught this to Irenaeus). That is to say not all dwelling in heaven is alike, some are in a greater state of blessedness than others.
The concept underlying many of these types of references have to do with the early claim that the heavenly abode of the righteous is a special place that is designed and prepared for such individual to live in . “But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.” Heb 11:16
3) 2 Cor 5:8-9 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
9 : θαρρουμεν δε και ευδοκουμεν μαλλον εκδημησαι εκ του σωματος και ενδημουντες προς τον Κθριον. Διο και φιλοτιμουμεθα ειτε ενδημουντες ειτε εκδημουντες ευαρεσταοι αυτω ειναι.
The normal use of Grek koine regarding εκδημηω is that of a residence. “εαν δε μεταβαινωμεν η εκδημωμεν μεταδωσωμεν (P Teb II. 316.20 (of a.d. 99) and again in BGU IV. 1197.7 (of b.c. 4) or PSI IV 410.3 of (iii/b.c.) though P Oxy I. 59.16 (of 292 a.d.) the translator (Moulton) renders it “departure). The underlying indication is the location of the personality and seems be saying that whether ones spirit resides INSIDE the living body, or leaves the body and resides with the Lord, the goal of such early Christians was to live the kind of life that would be acceptable to the Lord.
When Paul says “we are confident / have courage”, the belief underlying this confidence was partly the concept that what what one did was more important than where one was since what one did determined where one was (i.e. their ultimate state) after this life (e.g. A future eternity in a wonderful state was the priority).
One early description of the ancient Christian belief is as follows : ”Now this is the order of those who have kept the ways of the Most High, when they shall be separated from their mortal body.....First of all, they shall see with great joy the glory of him who receives them, for they shall have rest in seven orders. The first order, because they have striven with great effort to overcome the evil thought which was formed with them, that it might not lead them astray from life into death. The second order, because they see the perplexity in which the souls of the ungodly wander, and the punishment that waits them. The third order, they see the witness which he who formed them bears concerning them, that while they were alive they kept the Law which was given them in trust. The fourth order, they understand the rest which they now enjoy, being gathered into their chambers and guarded by angels in profound quiet, and the glory which awaits them in the last days. The fifth order, they rejoice that they have now escaped what is mortal, and shall inherit what is to come; and besides they see the straits and toil from which they have been delivered, and the spacious liberty which they are to receive and enjoy in immortality. The sixth order, when it is shown to them how their face is to shine like the sun, and how they are to be made like the light of the stars, being incorruptible from then on . The seventh order, which is greater than all that have been mentioned, because they shall rejoice with boldness, and shall be confident without confusion, and shall be glad without fear, for they hasten to behold the face of him whom they served in life and from whom they are to receive their reward when glorified.. Fourth Book of Ezra 7:88-99:
IF one believed in such an afterlife, THEN the priority was to make sure they were able to attain THAT state, rather than to seek the comforts of this temporary life. There are multiple descriptions of the early Judeo-Christian beliefs regarding heaven and all seem to contain a pattern of peace and contentment.
While such early descriptions may be correct or not, these are my thoughts about these specific scriptures.
Good luck coming to your own models and beliefs.
Clear
τωνεδρω
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